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it sounds like a machine gun, i bet it gives Furball nam flashbacks about charlie or something, man he's so old
rofl.....that explains it:D
Popcorn machine. Sounds like popcorn. Looks like popcorn. It's gotta be!!
MM...Popcorn...with butter...from milk....from cows...Moo!
Obviosly they are. If SL got (using the instation data) a energy rate of 88 8/9 energy/second, then that wouldn't fire for 30 seconds on a heavy.
I like the 6 per shot ammo idea - that was kinda what I had in mind. But since it would be such a high rate of fire weapon - you could use 10000 in a single battle! So they could make it a bit more Uber, and still have it be balanced.
Just one little thing I notice. It's not JUST about damage per time. I high rate of fire makes it easier to hit people who dodge well. More shots hit the target then more damage is delivered.
Hoax: The actual formula the simulates a weapons effectiveness is quiet complex, but basically at its heart it is <Damage Per Second> * <Accuracy>. There is another term in there that accounts for 'first strike effects' due to the fact that on average you don't get a full second 'on target' and that combat favors the ship with the harder hitting weapon. There is another term in there that accounts for energy efficiency and/or ammo consumption, since most weapons cannot truly be fired continiously. But, basically you are right its about both accuracy and damage.
Accuracy is however a very hard thing to calculate. Accuracy is related quite directly to velocity of the munition, and to the crosssectional area of the 'impact zone' of the munition. For a point like weapon like a flechette or a tachyon, the cross sectional area is the cross sectional area of the target. For a proximity weapon like a sunflare, its a shape drawn 30m around the edge of target which for simplicity sake can be considered a circle. Accuracy is also related to the weapons 'wieldiness'. Gauss cannons and advanced gatlings are really wieldy - just point them lazily in the general direction and you'll be on target. Sunflares and railguns are very unwieldy. You have to aim carefully to hit with a railgun, and if the sunflare wasn't a prox weapon its lack of wieldiness and velocity would mean it almost never hit. Regular gatlings and the flechette cannon are positively anti-wieldy, because even if you do aim well, you'll miss at least some of the time.
Its not the high rate of fire that makes it easier to hit people with the flechette gun. Its that it cannot be dodged merely by avoiding being aimed at. Most people who play don't dodge. Most people who play just evade the autoaiming system by holding down strafe+roll continiously (including me once I found out how insanely and unrealisticly well that worked). Rather, you can only dodge the flechette's _actively_ and in response to a percieved attack (in other words by dodging _well_), and since its moving at 190 m/s that isn't easy or likely for a human.
But despite this it nonetheless remains that the weapon is more anti-accurate than accurate. Not only do you get a relatively low rate of damage, but you get a relatively low number of hits compared to the number of shots you fire.
I like the six shot per ammo idea myself (I wonder why? :)), but I do recognize that it might have potential problems when it comes to implementing it (for example six different new vectors needing to be sent to the server at basically the same time). The whole original purpose of the 6 shot per trigger pull idea was to have a way to implement a ammo consuming weapon with a high rate of fire without eating up too much bandwidth.
Accuracy is however a very hard thing to calculate. Accuracy is related quite directly to velocity of the munition, and to the crosssectional area of the 'impact zone' of the munition. For a point like weapon like a flechette or a tachyon, the cross sectional area is the cross sectional area of the target. For a proximity weapon like a sunflare, its a shape drawn 30m around the edge of target which for simplicity sake can be considered a circle. Accuracy is also related to the weapons 'wieldiness'. Gauss cannons and advanced gatlings are really wieldy - just point them lazily in the general direction and you'll be on target. Sunflares and railguns are very unwieldy. You have to aim carefully to hit with a railgun, and if the sunflare wasn't a prox weapon its lack of wieldiness and velocity would mean it almost never hit. Regular gatlings and the flechette cannon are positively anti-wieldy, because even if you do aim well, you'll miss at least some of the time.
Its not the high rate of fire that makes it easier to hit people with the flechette gun. Its that it cannot be dodged merely by avoiding being aimed at. Most people who play don't dodge. Most people who play just evade the autoaiming system by holding down strafe+roll continiously (including me once I found out how insanely and unrealisticly well that worked). Rather, you can only dodge the flechette's _actively_ and in response to a percieved attack (in other words by dodging _well_), and since its moving at 190 m/s that isn't easy or likely for a human.
But despite this it nonetheless remains that the weapon is more anti-accurate than accurate. Not only do you get a relatively low rate of damage, but you get a relatively low number of hits compared to the number of shots you fire.
I like the six shot per ammo idea myself (I wonder why? :)), but I do recognize that it might have potential problems when it comes to implementing it (for example six different new vectors needing to be sent to the server at basically the same time). The whole original purpose of the 6 shot per trigger pull idea was to have a way to implement a ammo consuming weapon with a high rate of fire without eating up too much bandwidth.
After reading Celebrim's post it seems like the drawback with the flechette would be the lack of damage. It is difficult to hit someone with it regardless of how well you aim, so a damage boost seems to be in order. Somewhere between 350-450 damage with 2 or 3 rounds per shot.
i need to learn how to use it effectively
At the moment the flechette cannon is way unbalanced... it's significantly worse than the guass, tachs, gravs, gat, and advanced gat. Not complaining, just stating this is to be expected since it was just introduced, and is a lot better than it being unbalanced in the other direction.
When looking at weapons it makes more sense to consider damage, energy consumption and repeat rate together, since they carry a lot more meaning that way. So here are some relevant flechette stats:
raw power = 2778 dmg/sec (this effects how long it takes to kill someone, higher is better)
damage efficiency = 31.25 dmg/energy (this effects how much damage you can do before you with a fixed amount of energy)
energy consumption = 89 energy/sec (this effects how long you can use it before your battery drains, lower is better)
Now let's look at the same stats for the tach/grav:
raw power = 4000/3200 dmg/sec (44%/15% better)
damage efficiency = 50/44 dmg/energy (60%/42% better)
energy consumption = 80/72 energy/second (11.25%/19% better)
So the tach scores significantly better in all of those three statistics. If all guns hit their targets the exact same amount those statistics would be the only things that mattered, but that's not the case. This is one of the most important pieces of balancing weapons, since it can't easily represented mathematically. There are three things that effect what percent of a guns shots hit. First, how good it's auto-aim is, second how fast the shots move, and third how bad it's spread is.
It's auto aim seems to be the same as the tach and grav. As we've all seen with the gauss powerful auto aim, it can make a huge difference.
Its shots' velocities are quite good, 10m/s faster than that of the tach or grav. If people remember back in early 3.2 the tach was significantly better than the gravs, because it went only 20m/s faster.
But unlike the tachs and gravs which have pinpoint accuracy this gun has a large spread which sets it apart. This spread of course means at anything but the shortest ranges (50m- as Celebrim pointed out) have an extremely low hit %. This almost completely over shadows the 10m/s advantage.
Ideally if we want to add another functional weapon that is different than the ones we already have this gun would be able to beat out the tach at sufficiently close range (under 50m, against small targets longer away as the target gets larger), but would lose to it at longer ranges because of it's spread.
In order for the flechette to be better than the tach at close ranges where they both hit close to 100% of the time (if shots are auto aimed) it's raw damage must be higher than the tachs.
The easiest way to achieve this goal would be to increase the damage of each flechette shot. But this would also make lucky shots that happened to hit at long range more significant. So instead I would propose that the flechette fires two shots at once (similar to the gemini, as magus suggested), with out increasing the energy per second (i.e. 2 rounds still for 8 energy). Also to make sure it wasn't too powerful reduce the damage to 200 (per round) this would result in just under 4500 dmg/second. Then increase the damage if it's needed.
When looking at weapons it makes more sense to consider damage, energy consumption and repeat rate together, since they carry a lot more meaning that way. So here are some relevant flechette stats:
raw power = 2778 dmg/sec (this effects how long it takes to kill someone, higher is better)
damage efficiency = 31.25 dmg/energy (this effects how much damage you can do before you with a fixed amount of energy)
energy consumption = 89 energy/sec (this effects how long you can use it before your battery drains, lower is better)
Now let's look at the same stats for the tach/grav:
raw power = 4000/3200 dmg/sec (44%/15% better)
damage efficiency = 50/44 dmg/energy (60%/42% better)
energy consumption = 80/72 energy/second (11.25%/19% better)
So the tach scores significantly better in all of those three statistics. If all guns hit their targets the exact same amount those statistics would be the only things that mattered, but that's not the case. This is one of the most important pieces of balancing weapons, since it can't easily represented mathematically. There are three things that effect what percent of a guns shots hit. First, how good it's auto-aim is, second how fast the shots move, and third how bad it's spread is.
It's auto aim seems to be the same as the tach and grav. As we've all seen with the gauss powerful auto aim, it can make a huge difference.
Its shots' velocities are quite good, 10m/s faster than that of the tach or grav. If people remember back in early 3.2 the tach was significantly better than the gravs, because it went only 20m/s faster.
But unlike the tachs and gravs which have pinpoint accuracy this gun has a large spread which sets it apart. This spread of course means at anything but the shortest ranges (50m- as Celebrim pointed out) have an extremely low hit %. This almost completely over shadows the 10m/s advantage.
Ideally if we want to add another functional weapon that is different than the ones we already have this gun would be able to beat out the tach at sufficiently close range (under 50m, against small targets longer away as the target gets larger), but would lose to it at longer ranges because of it's spread.
In order for the flechette to be better than the tach at close ranges where they both hit close to 100% of the time (if shots are auto aimed) it's raw damage must be higher than the tachs.
The easiest way to achieve this goal would be to increase the damage of each flechette shot. But this would also make lucky shots that happened to hit at long range more significant. So instead I would propose that the flechette fires two shots at once (similar to the gemini, as magus suggested), with out increasing the energy per second (i.e. 2 rounds still for 8 energy). Also to make sure it wasn't too powerful reduce the damage to 200 (per round) this would result in just under 4500 dmg/second. Then increase the damage if it's needed.
Good post, Eldrad! I'm glad someone took the time to sit down and calculate out the actual firepower/advantages/disadvantages of the flechette compared to several other top of the line energy weapons. I agree with everything you propose, except for the following two points:
A) In my opinion, the spread of the flechette may balance out its relatively low firepower due to the "lucky shot" effect. I think the flechette cannon as it stands will come to be used as an excellent anti-fighter middle-range weapon due to its great spread. Case in point: I was dueling a Warthog that was equipped with a flechette cannon and an advanced gatling turret. If I got in too close, he would hit me with the advanced gatling turret, at middle range he would pepper me with the single flechette cannon, and every so often he would score a lucky hit due to the spread, whereas I had no hope of hitting him with my precise tachyons at that range.
B) Your argument seems to be under the assumption that the flechette cannon is intended to be a short-range "shotgun" type weapon, when in fact the devs describe it as "a gatling-like weapon that can be equipped on small ports." My point is; rather than trying to fit the specs of the flechette cannon to a particular role you have in mind, why not find the role the flechette cannon is best suited to as it stands. If it turns out that the cannon is indeed useless, then it would need a boost. But I have a hunch that it will prove very useful as a medium range anti-fighter weapon.
A) In my opinion, the spread of the flechette may balance out its relatively low firepower due to the "lucky shot" effect. I think the flechette cannon as it stands will come to be used as an excellent anti-fighter middle-range weapon due to its great spread. Case in point: I was dueling a Warthog that was equipped with a flechette cannon and an advanced gatling turret. If I got in too close, he would hit me with the advanced gatling turret, at middle range he would pepper me with the single flechette cannon, and every so often he would score a lucky hit due to the spread, whereas I had no hope of hitting him with my precise tachyons at that range.
B) Your argument seems to be under the assumption that the flechette cannon is intended to be a short-range "shotgun" type weapon, when in fact the devs describe it as "a gatling-like weapon that can be equipped on small ports." My point is; rather than trying to fit the specs of the flechette cannon to a particular role you have in mind, why not find the role the flechette cannon is best suited to as it stands. If it turns out that the cannon is indeed useless, then it would need a boost. But I have a hunch that it will prove very useful as a medium range anti-fighter weapon.
I don't trust your energy consumption data. I had one tachy, one flechette with a f-c battery and I could fire the flechette much longer than the tachy. I didn't take any numbers, though.
Flechette:
Shots per second: 1/0.09=11.111111
Energy per second: (1/0.09)*8=88.888888
Damage per second: (1/0.09)*250=2777.7777
Damage efficiency: ((1/0.09)*250)/((1/0.09)*8)=31.25
Tachyon:
Shots per second: 1/0.15=6.66667
Energy per second: (1/0.15)*12=80
Damage per second: (1/0.15)*600=4000
Damage efficiency: ((1/0.15)*600)/((1/0.15)*12)=50
Graviton:
Shots per second: 1/0.25=4
Energy per second: (1/0.25)*18=72
Damager per second: (1/0.25)*800=3200
Damage efficiency: ((1/0.25)*800)/((1/0.25)*18)=44.4444
Shots per second: 1/0.09=11.111111
Energy per second: (1/0.09)*8=88.888888
Damage per second: (1/0.09)*250=2777.7777
Damage efficiency: ((1/0.09)*250)/((1/0.09)*8)=31.25
Tachyon:
Shots per second: 1/0.15=6.66667
Energy per second: (1/0.15)*12=80
Damage per second: (1/0.15)*600=4000
Damage efficiency: ((1/0.15)*600)/((1/0.15)*12)=50
Graviton:
Shots per second: 1/0.25=4
Energy per second: (1/0.25)*18=72
Damager per second: (1/0.25)*800=3200
Damage efficiency: ((1/0.25)*800)/((1/0.25)*18)=44.4444
What I'm saying is that I don't think the posted energy usage value is correct. I believe that the actual energy usage is lower, particularly since that's the -exact same- energy usage as the gatling cannon (as are most of the other stats)
Bus with heavy battery.
Flechette:
Fire time=30 seconds
Tachyon:
Fire time=30 seconds
Graviton:
Fire time=21 seconds
Yes, I did this in game, yes I have nothing better to do.
Flechette:
Fire time=30 seconds
Tachyon:
Fire time=30 seconds
Graviton:
Fire time=21 seconds
Yes, I did this in game, yes I have nothing better to do.
The flachette really isn't an offensive weapon, and it shouldn't be either. Its to defend your self from the oncoming rammer. its just enough to keep them at bay while you fire rockets at them. it should NOT be an uber weapon just because its new. The flachette is just fine how it is. Just learn how to use it right and it can be deadly, just like any other weapon.
Vult with f-c battery
Flechette:
Fire Time = 20 secs
Tachyon:
Fire time = 20 seconds
The flechette is PERFECT for capping. I held off bots for sc2 and sc12 today no problem using flechette
Flechette:
Fire Time = 20 secs
Tachyon:
Fire time = 20 seconds
The flechette is PERFECT for capping. I held off bots for sc2 and sc12 today no problem using flechette
I still like my ammo idea - just needs to be tweaked a bit.
What if one ammo unit corresponded to 6 flechette shots? Thus every time you pulled the trigger the flechette would fire 6 times and use one ammo unit. That way ammo consumption would be ~2 per second, which if I remember correctly was the fastest feasable re-fire rate for an ammo consuming weapon.