Forums » General
Somewhere around 40% of original intent is lost in the written word. I tend to read things from more than one viewpoint, and ask myself how they could be interpreted. Things are not always so clear on the internet as when one is in person. I have to take into consideration not only your possible intent, but how it might be viewed by someone who is not familiar with the game, the person who it is directed to etc...
Take into consideration not just your own intent, but how it might be viewed by someone else.
Dude, I've read this half a dozen times and ways, and it can only be viewed one way:
You're a dick.
When Mecha, TRS, and I are all in this kind of agreement, there's something very, very wrong.
Your obsessive yet inconsistent nannying is unwelcome, unhelpful, and most certainly unVO. Knock it the [CENSORED FOR THE CHILDREN!] off already. Absent a Dev coming in here and expressly blessing your new, short-bus friendly VO forums approach -- which I'd bet would have its own set of implications for quite a few of their loyally paying subscribers -- you need to either check yourself or go find a new way to feel self-important.
Take into consideration not just your own intent, but how it might be viewed by someone else.
Dude, I've read this half a dozen times and ways, and it can only be viewed one way:
You're a dick.
When Mecha, TRS, and I are all in this kind of agreement, there's something very, very wrong.
Your obsessive yet inconsistent nannying is unwelcome, unhelpful, and most certainly unVO. Knock it the [CENSORED FOR THE CHILDREN!] off already. Absent a Dev coming in here and expressly blessing your new, short-bus friendly VO forums approach -- which I'd bet would have its own set of implications for quite a few of their loyally paying subscribers -- you need to either check yourself or go find a new way to feel self-important.
Look, if people want to genuinely complain about some kind of administrative choice that Phaserlight made, then submit a support ticket, explain exactly what it is that you said that you feel should not have been censored, and point to the specific instance. If I agree, I will ask him to dial it down in that kind of situation.
That being said, the instances I've seen of his action on General have not been objectionable to me. Perhaps I missed something, or was unaware of the triviality of some modification or other (I see them post-action), but I haven't seen anything bad myself.
At the same time, the forums aren't the same as the game. The forums are Google-indexed searchable web content that displays who we are as a community for posterity, for all time. Phaserlight is trying to create a welcoming environment for anyone who wants to check out our game. I don't think that's a bad thing, especially considering the recent influx of new people. (Yes, ideally we'd have more oversight on the game as well, but that's a realtime system that requires a lot more people to monitor).
Back when I did all the forum administration, I would have been more of a hardass too, I just didn't have the time. It's a tough balance to find, to keep a welcoming environment while also allowing a certain degree of community "character" and razzing. God knows we've had trouble in the past when one person's idea of "funny trash talking" crosses over someone else's boundaries of genuine abuse.
For the record, I don't think Phaserlight's explanation is dickish or self-important. He's saying exactly what anyone who does this kind of administration has to do.
That being said, the instances I've seen of his action on General have not been objectionable to me. Perhaps I missed something, or was unaware of the triviality of some modification or other (I see them post-action), but I haven't seen anything bad myself.
At the same time, the forums aren't the same as the game. The forums are Google-indexed searchable web content that displays who we are as a community for posterity, for all time. Phaserlight is trying to create a welcoming environment for anyone who wants to check out our game. I don't think that's a bad thing, especially considering the recent influx of new people. (Yes, ideally we'd have more oversight on the game as well, but that's a realtime system that requires a lot more people to monitor).
Back when I did all the forum administration, I would have been more of a hardass too, I just didn't have the time. It's a tough balance to find, to keep a welcoming environment while also allowing a certain degree of community "character" and razzing. God knows we've had trouble in the past when one person's idea of "funny trash talking" crosses over someone else's boundaries of genuine abuse.
For the record, I don't think Phaserlight's explanation is dickish or self-important. He's saying exactly what anyone who does this kind of administration has to do.
I've moderated several forums. Forums hundreds of orders of magnitude larger than this one (no exaggeration). I know what moderating takes. But Phaser takes it way, way overboard. Deleting a post just because it teasingly uses the word bitch is too much. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE would look at my dialect towards Espy (especially given the context) and think it was anything but jest. There's just no way I could possibly see that. But it was still deleted, most likely because I used a "naughty word".
I understand your view that the forums should be a welcoming place, especially for new players, but please consider the very nature of this game. The level of maturity and niceness on the forums does total jack shit if they log into the game and find out how ruthlessly rude/mean most VO players are. If they cannot handle someone saying bitch on the forums, they will not last in this game, period.
I don't think (m)any of us want Phaser to step down or some other dramatic BS, we just want him to tone down his censorship. He should obviously step in if things become abusive, but he shouldn't intervene in friendly conversations just because he feels someone's feelings might get hurt (especially when he is 100% wrong).
I understand your view that the forums should be a welcoming place, especially for new players, but please consider the very nature of this game. The level of maturity and niceness on the forums does total jack shit if they log into the game and find out how ruthlessly rude/mean most VO players are. If they cannot handle someone saying bitch on the forums, they will not last in this game, period.
I don't think (m)any of us want Phaser to step down or some other dramatic BS, we just want him to tone down his censorship. He should obviously step in if things become abusive, but he shouldn't intervene in friendly conversations just because he feels someone's feelings might get hurt (especially when he is 100% wrong).
I noticed that all the people complaining are serco, everyone knows sercos are mean and terrible. Long live keeping them down!
All hail "The Man"
All hail "The Man"
His moderation lends the impression that he just comes on here and censors trivialities one week, and the next someone is spurting all sorts of rubbish and there's no censoring. It's inconsistent to say the least, and it seems quite trivial and unnecessary.
For my money, incarnate underestimates the value that lack of oversight actually brings to the product as a point of difference.
Also, in case I wasn't getting the message across, we need new forum software. When I can effortlessly impersonate the moderator you've got a problem. The fact that guides are the only ones with moderation powers is also a problem. There are plenty of people in the community that could do the moderation job and not also be a guide, but without distinguishing the roles you're making it more of an administrative disaster than it needs to be.
I really don't think Phaser is a dick, of course what he said was a stupid thing to say. You can look at in isolation and say "well yes its technically true", but in context it was kinda really stupid and was so obviously going to be interpreted badly. Kinda ironic given the contents of the post.
Big deal, lots of stupid things are said on the boards. Phaser just seems to be misunderstood a bit more often than most but for my money he's a nice guy.
For my money, incarnate underestimates the value that lack of oversight actually brings to the product as a point of difference.
Also, in case I wasn't getting the message across, we need new forum software. When I can effortlessly impersonate the moderator you've got a problem. The fact that guides are the only ones with moderation powers is also a problem. There are plenty of people in the community that could do the moderation job and not also be a guide, but without distinguishing the roles you're making it more of an administrative disaster than it needs to be.
I really don't think Phaser is a dick, of course what he said was a stupid thing to say. You can look at in isolation and say "well yes its technically true", but in context it was kinda really stupid and was so obviously going to be interpreted badly. Kinda ironic given the contents of the post.
Big deal, lots of stupid things are said on the boards. Phaser just seems to be misunderstood a bit more often than most but for my money he's a nice guy.
ABSOLUTELY NO ONE would look at my dialect towards Espy (especially given the context) and think it was anything but jest.
I only have limited awareness of the "bitch" example you're referencing, but.. people who don't speak or read English as their first language usually have a lot of trouble with meaning, let alone context. We have an international reach, we've been a top download in Russia and some other locations, and I'd like the game to be relatively welcoming.. everywhere.
Secondly, people who log into the game have other choices for how to deal with chatter. You can /ignore individuals. Some people try the game with their friends.. they can leave 100 and just focus on the gameplay and communication with people they want. Some of our veterans do exactly that, and mainly talk to their guildmates.
There is no such option on the forums. We have handful of bases, all the content goes into those areas and is available forever. There's no question that we need to improve the situation in-game as well, but as I mentioned, the resource requirements are higher. There's nothing wrong with improving things where we can, for now.
I don't buy into the argument of "people behave badly elsewhere, therefore that must be allowed everywhere". It isn't desirable in-game either, and the only reason it exists is because of resource limitations, not a policy difference.
Anyway, like I said, people who have specific complaints can raise that via Support Ticket rather than Big Dramatic Thread. And please reference the specific example in the ticket.
I only have limited awareness of the "bitch" example you're referencing, but.. people who don't speak or read English as their first language usually have a lot of trouble with meaning, let alone context. We have an international reach, we've been a top download in Russia and some other locations, and I'd like the game to be relatively welcoming.. everywhere.
Secondly, people who log into the game have other choices for how to deal with chatter. You can /ignore individuals. Some people try the game with their friends.. they can leave 100 and just focus on the gameplay and communication with people they want. Some of our veterans do exactly that, and mainly talk to their guildmates.
There is no such option on the forums. We have handful of bases, all the content goes into those areas and is available forever. There's no question that we need to improve the situation in-game as well, but as I mentioned, the resource requirements are higher. There's nothing wrong with improving things where we can, for now.
I don't buy into the argument of "people behave badly elsewhere, therefore that must be allowed everywhere". It isn't desirable in-game either, and the only reason it exists is because of resource limitations, not a policy difference.
Anyway, like I said, people who have specific complaints can raise that via Support Ticket rather than Big Dramatic Thread. And please reference the specific example in the ticket.
Alexis & TRS: why do you seem to think your arguments and viewpoints are coming from an objective perspective? They're not. At all.
Alexis: had I not known your exact type of personality, I would have been pretty offended at some of what you've written on the forums (and knowing your personality, I still sort of am.) Having moderated a forum many orders of magnitude larger than this one, I can say I would absolutely remove those posts and warn you for them.
Alexis: had I not known your exact type of personality, I would have been pretty offended at some of what you've written on the forums (and knowing your personality, I still sort of am.) Having moderated a forum many orders of magnitude larger than this one, I can say I would absolutely remove those posts and warn you for them.
woot Phaser haz censor griefied idiots and made good ol' doc whine 'bout?
+1 to make da forum looks like Hello Kitty online from the internet! I luv my ingame meat fresh and innocent : ]
+1 to make da forum looks like Hello Kitty online from the internet! I luv my ingame meat fresh and innocent : ]
"Alexis & TRS: why do you seem to think your arguments and viewpoints are coming from an objective perspective? They're not. At all."
That's an oxymoron, if it's our viewpoint then it can't be considered objective can it.
Also, it doesn't surprise me that you would moderate posts that way, unlike phaserlight, you actually are an incredible tool.
That's an oxymoron, if it's our viewpoint then it can't be considered objective can it.
Also, it doesn't surprise me that you would moderate posts that way, unlike phaserlight, you actually are an incredible tool.
> Alexis: had I not known your exact type of personality, I would have been pretty offended at some of what you've written on the forums (and knowing your personality, I still sort of am.) Having moderated a forum many orders of magnitude larger than this one, I can say I would absolutely remove those posts and warn you for them.
Would you mind linking to something I've posted that you deem so offensive? I'm pretty civil here, so I'm very skeptical that you can.
Would you mind linking to something I've posted that you deem so offensive? I'm pretty civil here, so I'm very skeptical that you can.
"I've moderated several forums. Forums hundreds of orders of magnitude larger than this one (no exaggeration)."
Actually, yes you are very blatantly exaggerating, though possibly by accident. The problem, you see, is that the entire human population of the planet is, at most, only eight orders of magnitude larger than this forum's active population.
The easy way to compare orders of magnitude is to simply add up the digits of each number and subtract. 12,000 is three orders of magnitude larger than 12. Three orders of magnitude means ten to the power of three: 10^3 = 1000, and 12 * (10^3) = 12,000.
That goes for you too, Incarnate! (I think it was in one of the kickstarter posts where you tried to claim something like 30x was several orders of magnitude.)
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Also, I would like to point out that it seems that, as with programmers, this community happens to contain a disproportionate number of moderators. (Yep, that's an admission of guilt. I was an admin for the Puppy Linux board. Sorry TRS, but Barry Kauler still outranks you on my list of favorite Aussies.)
And let me just say, moderating sucks.
Actually, yes you are very blatantly exaggerating, though possibly by accident. The problem, you see, is that the entire human population of the planet is, at most, only eight orders of magnitude larger than this forum's active population.
The easy way to compare orders of magnitude is to simply add up the digits of each number and subtract. 12,000 is three orders of magnitude larger than 12. Three orders of magnitude means ten to the power of three: 10^3 = 1000, and 12 * (10^3) = 12,000.
That goes for you too, Incarnate! (I think it was in one of the kickstarter posts where you tried to claim something like 30x was several orders of magnitude.)
------
Also, I would like to point out that it seems that, as with programmers, this community happens to contain a disproportionate number of moderators. (Yep, that's an admission of guilt. I was an admin for the Puppy Linux board. Sorry TRS, but Barry Kauler still outranks you on my list of favorite Aussies.)
And let me just say, moderating sucks.
Pizzasgood you are like, literally hitler
Would you mind linking to something I've posted that you deem so offensive? I'm pretty civil here, so I'm very skeptical that you can.
Sorry, it seems it's been deleted. I don't really want to know what you consider uncivil...
Sorry, it seems it's been deleted. I don't really want to know what you consider uncivil...
Please just link me to it.
While I do happen to have a lot of Germanic ancestry, I am very clearly not Hitler. First of all, my hair is brown. Secondly, I don't have an idiotic mustache. Thirdly, I would have used forest green on my insignia instead of red. Fourthly, I would not have committed genocide ("stupid people" aren't an ethnic group, therefor purging them doesn't count).
:P
:P
Please just link me to it.
Again, it's apparently been deleted.
Also, it doesn't surprise me that you would moderate posts that way, unlike phaserlight, you actually are an incredible tool.
I tend to only moderate posts that users of the forum report to me for moderation, and even then, I prefer to go light on removals (which usually means the other moderators do it).
Based on my experience, Phaserlight's style of moderation would be welcomed nearly unanimously in that forum.
Again, it's apparently been deleted.
Also, it doesn't surprise me that you would moderate posts that way, unlike phaserlight, you actually are an incredible tool.
I tend to only moderate posts that users of the forum report to me for moderation, and even then, I prefer to go light on removals (which usually means the other moderators do it).
Based on my experience, Phaserlight's style of moderation would be welcomed nearly unanimously in that forum.
"my hair is brown. "
Mine too! High five!
Mine too! High five!
Phaserlight's style of moderation would be welcomed nearly unanimously
Nearly unanimously, being everything except the few trolls and jerks that post the crap needing removal?
Nearly unanimously, being everything except the few trolls and jerks that post the crap needing removal?
Well, that escalated quickly.
the only reason it exists is because of resource limitations
If that's really true, you're more short-sighted than I gave you credit for. Even if you could regulate everyone's behavior such that it's all "Dear Sir/Madam, I shall now fire at you until one of us doth explode," that "don't mean it's a good fucking idea."*
*Quoth the Bard Chris Rock.
the only reason it exists is because of resource limitations
If that's really true, you're more short-sighted than I gave you credit for. Even if you could regulate everyone's behavior such that it's all "Dear Sir/Madam, I shall now fire at you until one of us doth explode," that "don't mean it's a good fucking idea."*
*Quoth the Bard Chris Rock.