I'm sure I'll start a ruckus with this, but I just want to thank Raybondo for his recent efforts to moderate the forums. I realize this is a difficult job and that accusations of unfairness or bias are sure to flair up. I also realize it is time consuming, which takes away from precious development time.

Perhaps a flag system would help minimize the time consumption. Something that only the devs see, which might alert them to offensive language. With the ability to remove the option from players who abuse it.

Ray, if someone asks you if you're a god, you say... "YES"

+1

I was actually quite shocked by some backlash against moderators here recently.

It's one thing to attack a peer, but let's respect the moderators.

Lots of people have GREAT things to say here, but lets try to keep the discussion away from the personal attacks. RP is cool, but I am not talking about that.

my .02

Cheers!

Rays cool, Phaserlight is ok too but, if people are going to moderate... don't pick and chose. Either moderate EVERYONE or NO ONE.

Otherwise it's not moderation, it's being a censor and a tool.

I guess that was directed at me?

Thanks Ray.

Actually it was directed at PhaserLight and Ray and their selective moderation... but, as you threw your name in the ring, I assume you have a reason to think it was directed at you as well.

So, it is now also directed at you.

I see. You try it for 9 years and we'll let you know how you do.

Thought you'd never ask... give me mod powers and this becomes a very civil place, very fast.

You forgot boring, RR.

I think the issue is simply that tone is not moderated, while specific choices of words are.

Critique has been equated with derision, and no one jumps in and says "Keep it civil, you can make counterpoints without deriding their intelligence or claiming hypocrisy"

I think part of the issue is that when someone really doesn't like a post, it's impossible to show that outside of being vaguely insulting.

On many other forums they have a visible +1/-1 system, and I feel this self-moderates. You can make counterpoints, while -1'ing the idea, and it becomes very clear what the community actually supports. You don't have to try to yell loudly to be heard over the noise.

Comments which are extremely unfavorable simply will drop out of view, and so you won't have a thread devolve into responses to those posts. With really incendiary ideas, those threads are bound to get out of control.

I hereby declare the month of may to be "backseat moderation month!"
We shall all now proceed to make demands of those in charge of these forums and comment on how they do.
The goal of every player should be to, by trying to encourage the sort of moderator actions we like or by demanding more of the sort of moderator action we like or by decrying the sort of moderator action we dislike, sway the moderators to a position closer to that of the player.

Ready? Set! Goh wait, that's exactly what you're all doing already.
Nevermind, carry on.

Edit to comment on square's grandiose idea that he posted while I was typing:
Really? Really? You think that these forums should be more like reddit, a community famous for "men's rights activists," child porn and being a piece of shit?

genka, have you considered that the community might have some right to determine the rules and enforcement of their forum?

players don't own the forum, the devs do.

And democracy is rule by the average person. The average person is fucking stupid.

Cheers.

I see, it's the community's forums now, is it?
Well, let's go all out! I vote we get rid of these pesky moderators and vote in someone that'll keep out the newbs with stupid ideas and keep the trolls in line! Maybe he'll close down guantanamo bay too, but whatever, that's not really a community issue. The important bit is that the community has spoken, and it wants more mining, and for pirates to be banned, cause they're jerks!

Next, I think we should totally hold developer elections too. I mean, after all, they're just tools in the strong hairy arms of the community, right? I mean, how long must we wait for the ability to make capital ship sparkle?

Also, let's vote in a new forum software. I mean, everyone needs sigs and avatars, right? The power of democracy shall make it happen!

Oh, oh, let's also vote on how to balance the ships. I mean, everyone can see that the valk is just a tad underpowered, and the prom is like a floating fortress.

This is what community is all about, right? Let's all focus ourselves on "doing a service." You can tell people what to do, and I can tell you to go **** yourself.
http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/meh.ro9767.gif

PS:
I mean, I mean what I mean, and I'm pretty sure my meaning is that I'm not actually very mean.

[I removed the image tags (you can still click the link if you really want to) and starred out the profanity as it was directed at someone. -W]

lovely slippery slope argument there genka.

That's right, if users are allowed input, they will completely take over the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#As_a_fallacy

Ah yes, wikipedia links to explanations of logical phalluses. A common tactic from the book of shtandartenfuror Derbungloch.

Doesn't really explain why you think you have the right to tell the moderators what to do though.

In the end, I agree with genka and don't think the players should have any sort of true moderating power.

But a simple 1+/-1 functionally could contribute in a meaningful fashion to forum discussions - And it could be a nice tool for the mods/devs. (though having it move posts up and down wouldn't really be useful- this is a forum and everyone has the right to get their say, no matter how unpopular it is. You just would be able to skim over things that are -1'd down)

Also having a flagging button could help so the mods can have the opprtunity to catch everything.

I think having the posts change position based on rating could disrupt an actual conversation. Flags and +/- could have their uses.

not position, just can be hidden from view. And it would take a large number of votes to hide it. Prior to that, it would just show -5 or whatever, showing a generally negative view of the idea.

here's an example of a thread which uses this system

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2141176

EDIT:

under that system, you can still show comments that have been hidden, but you have to click a button on the post to do so. The posts become "opt in" rather than "opt out"

EDIT 2:

When I said "drop from view" I didn't mean a literal descent on the page, that would, of course, make the thread unreadable

FYI:

- I don't have a problem with flagging, tagging, like/dislike, karma, or other non-binding and helpful modifications to the forum. I don't have the resources to implement them at present, either.

- Ray is not usually involved in moderation, and was unfamiliar with some of our standard practices. But kudos to him for involvement.

- We do try to moderate evenly and with a minimum of bias, but we do also strive for some "leeway" and "breathing room" to allow organic discussion.. both on the forum and within the game. Moderators step in when it crosses a line (if/when they're aware), but that point is basically subjective to the judgement of the moderator (and factoring in the location of the discussion, historical factors, etc), so that is not and never will be entirely perfect. The goal is to dial down the major issues that crop up, not to nuke all conversation down to a point of carefully regimented "harmony". This is neither intended to be a haven for the self-righteously indignant or the egregiously abusive.

- Moderators are all totally-uncompensated volunteers (unless you count people like me and Ray), so please give them the benefit of the doubt. Moderating is a giant headache, especially since taking any kind of action causes all sorts of stuff to hit the fan, and causes some of the population to dislike you. So keep the real intent of the Moderators in mind: to re-focus the conversation productively towards some beneficial goal and avoid the spiral of name-calling.

- We are becoming more aggressive in our moderation of the forums, particularly General, Bugs, Suggestions, and the platform forums. Any place where new people may congregate. So, keep in mind that what was "ok" a few years ago may not be "ok" anymore. When in doubt, try to stick to the "Be Nice" concept.