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*** Vendetta 1.8.93
- All players and NPCs are occluded from the radar by asteroids and ice.
- Occluded ships no longer show their distance in the sector list.
- Radar occlusion calculations are performed in a separate thread.
- All players and NPCs are occluded from the radar by asteroids and ice.
- Occluded ships no longer show their distance in the sector list.
- Radar occlusion calculations are performed in a separate thread.
Posting here rather than in Bugs because I'm not sure if these are bugs or "features."
The occlusion of bots works. Sort of. In a bot-infested roid field I was no longer able to target any bots once I was inside what I assume was the sphere of a roid; they were still able to see, track, and target me. When a bot is 20m from you, firing full auto at you with perfect bot aim, it's stupid to not be able to target them at all. This should be fixed.
Also, when bots were occluded from me, they disappeared from Targetless and the sector list, and at the same time they were not targetable, which had the interesting effect of making the Target Nearest Hostile key useless, as it tried to target a target that it couldn't see. This happened when there were still bots I could see, and target. This is also something that needs to be fixed, so you target something you see, rather than targeting nothing.
I like the theory, but if we can't see/target/whatever the bots, they shouldn't be able to pinpoint us with laser precision.
The occlusion of bots works. Sort of. In a bot-infested roid field I was no longer able to target any bots once I was inside what I assume was the sphere of a roid; they were still able to see, track, and target me. When a bot is 20m from you, firing full auto at you with perfect bot aim, it's stupid to not be able to target them at all. This should be fixed.
Also, when bots were occluded from me, they disappeared from Targetless and the sector list, and at the same time they were not targetable, which had the interesting effect of making the Target Nearest Hostile key useless, as it tried to target a target that it couldn't see. This happened when there were still bots I could see, and target. This is also something that needs to be fixed, so you target something you see, rather than targeting nothing.
I like the theory, but if we can't see/target/whatever the bots, they shouldn't be able to pinpoint us with laser precision.
- Radar occlusion calculations are performed in a separate thread.
Is this clientside and therefore hack-able?
/me fires up Tsearch.
Is this clientside and therefore hack-able?
/me fires up Tsearch.
People were interested in trying "proximity" occlusion, which is what the use of spherical checks is doing for certain asteroid types. I believe we have it disabled (ie, instead we use accurate OBB occlusion checks) for certain roids, like those that appear in the newbie sectors.
We haven't yet modified the behaviour of bots, regarding the occlusion, although clearly that's needed. However, having your own radar be occluded by flying near an asteroid is inherent to the "proximity" sort of thing that was of interest. We can make this only occur for a minority of asteroid types, but it's sure to still be a bit different in some cases.
"Seeing" is relative. If the inherent point of "proximity" occlusion is that the interference of the asteroid is causing sensory difficulties.. then no, it doesn't really matter what you can personally "see", only what your radar can see. I'm not saying the current behaviour is something we should keep, just that we probably need more feedback encompassing the entire perspective.. including the benefits, rather than just "fixing" something because it's different, despite inherent upsides. I'm not sure what the right balance is.. bot behaviour, visibility, relative rarity of "proximity" usage to only one asteroid type, or what.
We were unaware of the Target Nearest Hostile issue, we'll see about fixing that.
We haven't yet modified the behaviour of bots, regarding the occlusion, although clearly that's needed. However, having your own radar be occluded by flying near an asteroid is inherent to the "proximity" sort of thing that was of interest. We can make this only occur for a minority of asteroid types, but it's sure to still be a bit different in some cases.
"Seeing" is relative. If the inherent point of "proximity" occlusion is that the interference of the asteroid is causing sensory difficulties.. then no, it doesn't really matter what you can personally "see", only what your radar can see. I'm not saying the current behaviour is something we should keep, just that we probably need more feedback encompassing the entire perspective.. including the benefits, rather than just "fixing" something because it's different, despite inherent upsides. I'm not sure what the right balance is.. bot behaviour, visibility, relative rarity of "proximity" usage to only one asteroid type, or what.
We were unaware of the Target Nearest Hostile issue, we'll see about fixing that.
I am a fan of proximity occlusion, in general, though I haven't tried it with a large group of people (I've only played with it in B8, which has ice roids, and didn't seem to have the proximity effect). Being able to hide is somewhat less useful when you can't see who you're hiding from, but I think that's a very valid tradeoff you need to make. I do, however, think that there should be some form of radar piggy-backing, such as suggested in the AWACS thread in the Suggestions forum, where one scout could relay information about who's in the sector to a potentially much larger force hidden in the roids. Very interesting tactical maneuvers become available with that sort of thing, and I for one am very excited about their possibilities.
As regards AoD's problems with bots being able to target him within the roid's occlusion area, I would advocate full radar detection within a certain distance, maybe 250-300m or something of the sort. That way if you're having a dogfight and you happen to stray into an occlusion field you aren't suddenly bereft of targeting and telemetry. Such a situation would greatly benefit anyone using flares, as you don't need targeting aids nearly as much with unguided rockets as you do with energy. Outside that range, you're not closely engaged and you can resolve the situation without granting your foe a large opportunity to kick you while you're blind.
Perhaps the range should be as long as 400m or so, that's something to be discussed, but I definitely think our radars should be able to properly resolve nearby objects without losing them due to interference or the like.
As regards AoD's problems with bots being able to target him within the roid's occlusion area, I would advocate full radar detection within a certain distance, maybe 250-300m or something of the sort. That way if you're having a dogfight and you happen to stray into an occlusion field you aren't suddenly bereft of targeting and telemetry. Such a situation would greatly benefit anyone using flares, as you don't need targeting aids nearly as much with unguided rockets as you do with energy. Outside that range, you're not closely engaged and you can resolve the situation without granting your foe a large opportunity to kick you while you're blind.
Perhaps the range should be as long as 400m or so, that's something to be discussed, but I definitely think our radars should be able to properly resolve nearby objects without losing them due to interference or the like.
Well the way it is now that you can be 50m from a roid and not be able to use your radar at all doesn't seem to make much sense.
I think it'd make more sense if radar occlusion sphere would never go outside of collision mesh at all or only a few meters at most.
Downside is that you could look through parts of some very non spherical roids (but then those shouldn't be using the spherical model anyway, right?).
Other option is to not disable your radar if you are inside the sphere, tho that'd mean you could totally see through a roid you are close to.
I think it'd make more sense if radar occlusion sphere would never go outside of collision mesh at all or only a few meters at most.
Downside is that you could look through parts of some very non spherical roids (but then those shouldn't be using the spherical model anyway, right?).
Other option is to not disable your radar if you are inside the sphere, tho that'd mean you could totally see through a roid you are close to.
If we want accurate occlusion, then we should switch back to OBBs. If we want "proximity" occlusion, then we use spheres that can wholly encompass the given asteroid.. this usually results in some substantial inaccuracies, but the differences aren't that huge for smaller roids, and it gives the "prox" effect.
Whether it makes "sense" is up to us, really. If we're shooting for a "being near the asteroid makes your radar not work" kind of effect.. then there's nothing about it that's illogical. The real discussion is whether the effect is unwanted.
Doing weird specialized sphere sizing for given asteroids is.. not really desirable, from an implementation standpoint. We use this same generic sphere test for all sorts of things in the game, which is part of why it's fast. If we don't want the sphere, we can use 1) a best-fitted box, or 2) the full OBB hull. The box would probably be kind of weird too, since it's a.. box. but it would be smaller than the sphere for some cases. Probably larger in a few cases.
Whether it makes "sense" is up to us, really. If we're shooting for a "being near the asteroid makes your radar not work" kind of effect.. then there's nothing about it that's illogical. The real discussion is whether the effect is unwanted.
Doing weird specialized sphere sizing for given asteroids is.. not really desirable, from an implementation standpoint. We use this same generic sphere test for all sorts of things in the game, which is part of why it's fast. If we don't want the sphere, we can use 1) a best-fitted box, or 2) the full OBB hull. The box would probably be kind of weird too, since it's a.. box. but it would be smaller than the sphere for some cases. Probably larger in a few cases.
Right, well i see two different ways that the proximity effect is visible
- your radar is useless near an asteroid, this is i think pretty crappy
- you can't see someone who is near an asteroid somewhere (but not occluded by it as such), otherwise your radar works, also he would the be able to see you (ie you are far from that roid, he is close to it), that i could see staying.
Tho if i understand right you can't have that sort of differentiation atm.
- your radar is useless near an asteroid, this is i think pretty crappy
- you can't see someone who is near an asteroid somewhere (but not occluded by it as such), otherwise your radar works, also he would the be able to see you (ie you are far from that roid, he is close to it), that i could see staying.
Tho if i understand right you can't have that sort of differentiation atm.
I think diqrtvpe's suggestion of not applying the proximity effect on targets within 300-400m from you is quite sensible. As it is it makes botting and hive skirmishes in astroid belts rather difficult. I can understand collector bots that are mining disappearing from the radar, but it doesn't make much sense to me for a bot to disappear from radar during a dogfight while you are far enough away from the astroids to be able to maneuver freely without having to worry about colliding with them.
And do ships hide other ships by the proximity effect? In a static queen sector there were 11 bots with no roids in the sector and there were about 4 bots that just wouldn't appear on radar. The same bots never seemed to register no matter how I positioned myself relative to them. Once I cleared the bots and there were only 2 queens left in the sector, only one of the queens appeared on radar. My recommendation would be to have the proximity effect only kick in with proximity to roids, not with proximity to other ships.
And do ships hide other ships by the proximity effect? In a static queen sector there were 11 bots with no roids in the sector and there were about 4 bots that just wouldn't appear on radar. The same bots never seemed to register no matter how I positioned myself relative to them. Once I cleared the bots and there were only 2 queens left in the sector, only one of the queens appeared on radar. My recommendation would be to have the proximity effect only kick in with proximity to roids, not with proximity to other ships.
Inc: I'm actually fine with the current level of proximity occlusion. I think it's kind of cool that near certain roids you can't see much beyond the occlusion field. My suggestion was not to change that part of it, but to add in being able to see anyone within a certain range of you, occluded or not. Without this effect, as meridian says, several fun things become basically unplayable. Mick's second possibility of being able to see someone far away from the roid when you are close in to it would indeed be cool, but I can understand how that might be very hard to implement right now.
Best compromise in my eyes: keep things the way they are with respect to occlusion spheres, but make it possible to see people within a certain distance of you. Being unable to target someone 50m in front of you is unwanted, but the rest could be cool to play with.
Best compromise in my eyes: keep things the way they are with respect to occlusion spheres, but make it possible to see people within a certain distance of you. Being unable to target someone 50m in front of you is unwanted, but the rest could be cool to play with.
As has been stated many times before, botting is a whole new game. I've seen several newbies complain about the apparent emptiness of many 'bot infested' sectors. Perhaps occlusion should be toggled-off for bots for the sake of gameplay. Other than that, very cool stuff. Had some fun w/ the occlusion in b8.
Accurate, not prox, is the way to go.
Accurate OBB is the way to go.
Although, you could make this a player choice if it doesn't interfere with the game too much. You could have different radars that you install on your ship - one is accurate but betrays your position (like active sonar) and one is much less accurate but allows you to remain stealthy (like passive sonar)Or give the player the ability to install both and switch back and forth between them.
Yay customizeability!
(Or, maybe having two radar procedures would be a giant PITA. I dunno.)
Although, you could make this a player choice if it doesn't interfere with the game too much. You could have different radars that you install on your ship - one is accurate but betrays your position (like active sonar) and one is much less accurate but allows you to remain stealthy (like passive sonar)Or give the player the ability to install both and switch back and forth between them.
Yay customizeability!
(Or, maybe having two radar procedures would be a giant PITA. I dunno.)
Nice update.
Some proximity induced paranoia when a guildmate and I weren't sure whether a target was hiding out amongst the asteroids around a station or spaced beyond radar range. It got us to search the asteroid clusters looking for visual cues.
Some proximity induced paranoia when a guildmate and I weren't sure whether a target was hiding out amongst the asteroids around a station or spaced beyond radar range. It got us to search the asteroid clusters looking for visual cues.
Ok, after having the radar glitching occur in a furball, some things definitely need work, especially since it was Sedina B8 and there are only ice roids there.
However, it's still pretty awesome trying to shoot people whom you can't target. I think it'll really separate the elites from the pretenders pretty quickly if some proximity based radar messing remains operating, even when the glitches are worked out.
I vote for keeping the proximity, but maybe making the storm extenders switch it to OBB only... vote... as if this were democracy. That and link up the group radar. really, if there's a bandwidth friendly way of doing that, it should totally get implemented.
However, it's still pretty awesome trying to shoot people whom you can't target. I think it'll really separate the elites from the pretenders pretty quickly if some proximity based radar messing remains operating, even when the glitches are worked out.
I vote for keeping the proximity, but maybe making the storm extenders switch it to OBB only... vote... as if this were democracy. That and link up the group radar. really, if there's a bandwidth friendly way of doing that, it should totally get implemented.
I spent a while playing around with the occlusion stuff last night and could only come to one conclusion: proximity-based occlusion with spherical bounding 'boxes' really sucks. Please get rid of it ASAP and go back to OBB.
This game is supposed to be set in the 4430s... if I can see it with my own eyes I really should be able to target it, no exceptions except range. If you're actually planning on using proximity-based occlusion, please include a LOS sanity-check, because not being able to target something in plain sight just because it's next to a roid is, frankly, in a word, retarded -- we're flying ships with giant powerplants/heatsinks/engines on their asses. That means they're hot. There's no reason at all your sensors shouldn't be able to discern them from an asteroid if you can see them with your own eyes. (This does, however, open up interesting possibilities for roid roasters. Another post, another time.)
This game is supposed to be set in the 4430s... if I can see it with my own eyes I really should be able to target it, no exceptions except range. If you're actually planning on using proximity-based occlusion, please include a LOS sanity-check, because not being able to target something in plain sight just because it's next to a roid is, frankly, in a word, retarded -- we're flying ships with giant powerplants/heatsinks/engines on their asses. That means they're hot. There's no reason at all your sensors shouldn't be able to discern them from an asteroid if you can see them with your own eyes. (This does, however, open up interesting possibilities for roid roasters. Another post, another time.)
+1 Manharu
Dark sectors, innate camouflage, IR vision?
I was thinking of intentionally heating up certain asteroids for the purpose of either actually allowing a ship to 'blend in' with the asteroid, or 'tricking' players' radars into thinking that the roid is actually a ship or something... so... kinda, yeah?
Personally, I like the idea.. but the way it works now sucks. I was doing some hs missions where I was more than 5000m away from the nearest roids, but couldn't target bots that were 100m or less away. I mean, seriously... that's just wrong.