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BTW Incarnate any idea of how big grey space is eventually going to be?
I think your doing fine on the training area But with that I would suggest that easing up outside of those areas would be a better idea then backing the training protection down. Before Newbs had almost no protection and a lot of the defenses in the capitol areas needed to be installed to help protect them from people noobing.... Now that the newbs are better protected I think it would be ok to allow a small bit more leeway in the outer sectors.
I think your doing fine on the training area But with that I would suggest that easing up outside of those areas would be a better idea then backing the training protection down. Before Newbs had almost no protection and a lot of the defenses in the capitol areas needed to be installed to help protect them from people noobing.... Now that the newbs are better protected I think it would be ok to allow a small bit more leeway in the outer sectors.
I dunno PaKettle, as a pirate I can find ways round the border turrets, like the broken faction system :)
The newb area is a good idea, cos even I cannot go there.
The newb area is a good idea, cos even I cannot go there.
incarnate
I am a very big fan of VO and I totally understand that the health of the game is the paramount consideration, not only for the developers, but to the players as well. I feel that anyone who cannot or will not understand that need not be taken seriously. So I am a bit perplexed when I read:
Lastly, I am doing what I believe is best for the game as a whole. I have no expectations of popularity for the choices I'm making. Pirates are pissed that they can't sack capitols as easily. Traders are pissed that their routes are now favoring gray space where they're at risk to pirates. Miners will be pissed when I re-assort all the minerals and put the more valuable patches in grayspace.
You then go on to say that the new player turnover is horrible because they are pissed at being griefed before they even learn how to fly. So, please explain to me how pissing off every group of players in VO by changes they obviously do not want (if they wanted them they would not be pissed) is going to be “good” for the game?
Please don’t misunderstand. I have yet to see a change I have not liked and I am more than willing to believe that the next ones are going to be just as good. It is the notion that pissing everyone off is a good business strategy that has me worried.
I, for one, do not mind in the least being “lured” into grayspace but I draw the line at being “forced” there. If all the good trade routes and mining areas are in grayspace and I do not want to go to grayspace is it really a good idea to try to force me (and other players/customers) against our will?
One of the major reasons that you have to force people to go to grayspace in the first place is related to why the new players leave the game. The people who hang out there.
If we don’t like these people when we are new players what makes you think we like them any better when we gain more experience? They are still griefers. So what makes you think that forcing us to associate with them against our will can make us like them any more or make us want to continue playing the game?
VO should have room for EVERY type of player (aka customer) and not cater to only one constituency. If you have to dream up ideas for forcing some players to associate with other players then perhaps some basic principals of the game (and the business) need to be reexamined. Maybe letting one group prey on the other players against their will is not fun for the victims and therefore not good for the business.
I do not claim to have all the answers but I do have suggestions from someone who is devoted to the game and would love to see it grow and prosper.
Why not “channel” the pk crowd’s energy in to consensual combat in an expanded war zone, or group of zones? Only those who want to fight them would have to.
For those who want to “pirate” why not have them direct their efforts towards AI convoys or at guild organized and run convoys made up of players who want to take part in that type of game?
The “spice” that the traders and miners want to make their gaming experience interesting could come from AI opponents as well (they tend to have better personalities), or they could join guilds that are set up for those who want to contend with live pirates.
This way each and every group has a chance to play “their” game the way they want to and no one is forced to play it the way someone else wants. I have run my own business for many years and one thing I have learned is that forcing a customer to do something they do not want to do is a really good way to lose them as a customer.
I understand that there was an original vision of the game that involved a lot of player verses player contact but if you are now finding yourself working on ways to FORCE that contact then perhaps a new vision is needed.
I am a very big fan of VO and I totally understand that the health of the game is the paramount consideration, not only for the developers, but to the players as well. I feel that anyone who cannot or will not understand that need not be taken seriously. So I am a bit perplexed when I read:
Lastly, I am doing what I believe is best for the game as a whole. I have no expectations of popularity for the choices I'm making. Pirates are pissed that they can't sack capitols as easily. Traders are pissed that their routes are now favoring gray space where they're at risk to pirates. Miners will be pissed when I re-assort all the minerals and put the more valuable patches in grayspace.
You then go on to say that the new player turnover is horrible because they are pissed at being griefed before they even learn how to fly. So, please explain to me how pissing off every group of players in VO by changes they obviously do not want (if they wanted them they would not be pissed) is going to be “good” for the game?
Please don’t misunderstand. I have yet to see a change I have not liked and I am more than willing to believe that the next ones are going to be just as good. It is the notion that pissing everyone off is a good business strategy that has me worried.
I, for one, do not mind in the least being “lured” into grayspace but I draw the line at being “forced” there. If all the good trade routes and mining areas are in grayspace and I do not want to go to grayspace is it really a good idea to try to force me (and other players/customers) against our will?
One of the major reasons that you have to force people to go to grayspace in the first place is related to why the new players leave the game. The people who hang out there.
If we don’t like these people when we are new players what makes you think we like them any better when we gain more experience? They are still griefers. So what makes you think that forcing us to associate with them against our will can make us like them any more or make us want to continue playing the game?
VO should have room for EVERY type of player (aka customer) and not cater to only one constituency. If you have to dream up ideas for forcing some players to associate with other players then perhaps some basic principals of the game (and the business) need to be reexamined. Maybe letting one group prey on the other players against their will is not fun for the victims and therefore not good for the business.
I do not claim to have all the answers but I do have suggestions from someone who is devoted to the game and would love to see it grow and prosper.
Why not “channel” the pk crowd’s energy in to consensual combat in an expanded war zone, or group of zones? Only those who want to fight them would have to.
For those who want to “pirate” why not have them direct their efforts towards AI convoys or at guild organized and run convoys made up of players who want to take part in that type of game?
The “spice” that the traders and miners want to make their gaming experience interesting could come from AI opponents as well (they tend to have better personalities), or they could join guilds that are set up for those who want to contend with live pirates.
This way each and every group has a chance to play “their” game the way they want to and no one is forced to play it the way someone else wants. I have run my own business for many years and one thing I have learned is that forcing a customer to do something they do not want to do is a really good way to lose them as a customer.
I understand that there was an original vision of the game that involved a lot of player verses player contact but if you are now finding yourself working on ways to FORCE that contact then perhaps a new vision is needed.
Utisz you are a fail troll learn what an mmo is. I hope you get forced to greyspace and i will more then happily turn your ship into a smoldering pile of scrap metal.
We're basically doing many of the things you're suggesting, see the Suggestions forum. I'm not "forcing" anyone to do anything, I'm simply saying that risk will match reward in the future. Many of the existing issues in the game stem from having an economic system that was so drastically out of whack that money was entirely without any real value, and no risk was required to acquire it in vast quantities. At the same time, this very imbalance enabled certain gameplay styles. This thread features more commentary on the subject (particularly towards the end).
That thread is a good microcosm of a particular series of "changes". People who only play the game for single-sector, non-mission-driven PvP (killing each other in B8, for instance) dislike the idea of funds becoming more involved to acquire. The gameplay offset to this is to create more PvP-combat oriented ways to accrue money. But in the interim, changes like last fall's increase in ship cost, is going to result in a temporary outflow of angst from any group that is impacted in any way that they perceive as negative, regardless of the overall need. All MMOs have a long history of this, ours is no exception.. the Prometheus was too strong, it was nerfed, the Serco were pissed, and so on. In no way does it diminish the need for the given change, but balancing of this sort results in a certain amount of irritation from the playerbase.
The best I can really do is listen to people, learn from mistakes as best I can, and focus on the general game balance that I actually want. Fundamentally, a designer creates games that he or she wants to play, and staying true to this is critical. I take and use input, but my direction is my own. And it needs to be, otherwise I'll be unable to pull back and see the game as a whole; I'll fall victim to trying to please every unique group. That's a very terrible, slippery slope, because each concession overlaps on someone else. You can not please everyone. It's better to stay focused on the goals of what I want, and roll in the input and suggestions of others that run parallel to my own goals.
Yes, I do get a little irritated when someone spouts a bunch of non-constructive angst over some clearly needed game change, like protecting raw-newbies. You state "VO should have room for EVERY type of player (aka customer) and not cater to only one constituency.".. and yet, that's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. Certain people enjoy blowing up newbies, because they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating people who cannot defend themselves and who are easy targets. This is not good for the game as a whole, and thus that type of "gameplay" is removed. We do not "have room for that type of player"; I approve of pirates and non-consensual PvP, but I've constructed a layered defense perimeter to at least allow a gradient of knowledge before new people face murderous vets. Strictly speaking, they won't even have to venture into gray, it'll just be the most profitable (reward increases with risk), as well as having the most advanced endgame. I think this is the best balance for everyone involved. Other people disagree, but they aren't making this game.
Fundamentally, there is no game, ever, that "has room for EVERY type of player". VO takes a far broader view than most, and that has been part of the trouble that has plagued us these last 4.5 years. Still, I try to stick as close to that as I can, and make as much gameplay available, as possible, for as many playtypes as possible; while still retaining as much overall "sense" of realism and context as I can manage.
That thread is a good microcosm of a particular series of "changes". People who only play the game for single-sector, non-mission-driven PvP (killing each other in B8, for instance) dislike the idea of funds becoming more involved to acquire. The gameplay offset to this is to create more PvP-combat oriented ways to accrue money. But in the interim, changes like last fall's increase in ship cost, is going to result in a temporary outflow of angst from any group that is impacted in any way that they perceive as negative, regardless of the overall need. All MMOs have a long history of this, ours is no exception.. the Prometheus was too strong, it was nerfed, the Serco were pissed, and so on. In no way does it diminish the need for the given change, but balancing of this sort results in a certain amount of irritation from the playerbase.
The best I can really do is listen to people, learn from mistakes as best I can, and focus on the general game balance that I actually want. Fundamentally, a designer creates games that he or she wants to play, and staying true to this is critical. I take and use input, but my direction is my own. And it needs to be, otherwise I'll be unable to pull back and see the game as a whole; I'll fall victim to trying to please every unique group. That's a very terrible, slippery slope, because each concession overlaps on someone else. You can not please everyone. It's better to stay focused on the goals of what I want, and roll in the input and suggestions of others that run parallel to my own goals.
Yes, I do get a little irritated when someone spouts a bunch of non-constructive angst over some clearly needed game change, like protecting raw-newbies. You state "VO should have room for EVERY type of player (aka customer) and not cater to only one constituency.".. and yet, that's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. Certain people enjoy blowing up newbies, because they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating people who cannot defend themselves and who are easy targets. This is not good for the game as a whole, and thus that type of "gameplay" is removed. We do not "have room for that type of player"; I approve of pirates and non-consensual PvP, but I've constructed a layered defense perimeter to at least allow a gradient of knowledge before new people face murderous vets. Strictly speaking, they won't even have to venture into gray, it'll just be the most profitable (reward increases with risk), as well as having the most advanced endgame. I think this is the best balance for everyone involved. Other people disagree, but they aren't making this game.
Fundamentally, there is no game, ever, that "has room for EVERY type of player". VO takes a far broader view than most, and that has been part of the trouble that has plagued us these last 4.5 years. Still, I try to stick as close to that as I can, and make as much gameplay available, as possible, for as many playtypes as possible; while still retaining as much overall "sense" of realism and context as I can manage.
I may have misstated my point. By EVERY type of player I meant those who like the trading and mining and those who like the fighting as well as those who do not.
You make an excellent point about working towards a vision. My goal is not to change that vision but to give as constructive feedback as I can in order to let you know how it is looking on the other end. As I said, I have yet to be disappointed or upset by a change. They have all gone in a direction that I see as improving the game. I was simply worried that “pushing” people into areas that they don’t want to go would harm the game.
I think a lot more thought should be given to the reasons that new players leave and if there is any lesson to be learned about how more experienced players react to the game. As you point out:
Certain people enjoy blowing up newbies, because they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating people who cannot defend themselves and who are easy targets. This is not good for the game as a whole, and thus that type of "gameplay" is removed. We do not "have room for that type of player";
These same people are not good for the game when they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating more experienced players who simply do not want to associate with them. Those types of players are no fun regardless of ones experience level. Those customers who do not want to play with that sort of person should have other options. AI opponents often have better personalities. It is not about "danger" it is about having fun and people who simply are no fun to be around.
My suggestion on expanding the role of war is one possible approach to this problem. It may sound funny but a form of “consensual non-consensual PvP” may strike the needed balance between vision and business.
I really like this game and would love to see it prosper. I think what you have said about making gamepaly available for as many playtypes as possible while retaining as much overall “sense” of realism and context is exactly the right idea. I hope my suggestions are useful and constructive and, if I am lucky, will help spark fresh ideas as to how to achieve this goal.
You make an excellent point about working towards a vision. My goal is not to change that vision but to give as constructive feedback as I can in order to let you know how it is looking on the other end. As I said, I have yet to be disappointed or upset by a change. They have all gone in a direction that I see as improving the game. I was simply worried that “pushing” people into areas that they don’t want to go would harm the game.
I think a lot more thought should be given to the reasons that new players leave and if there is any lesson to be learned about how more experienced players react to the game. As you point out:
Certain people enjoy blowing up newbies, because they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating people who cannot defend themselves and who are easy targets. This is not good for the game as a whole, and thus that type of "gameplay" is removed. We do not "have room for that type of player";
These same people are not good for the game when they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating more experienced players who simply do not want to associate with them. Those types of players are no fun regardless of ones experience level. Those customers who do not want to play with that sort of person should have other options. AI opponents often have better personalities. It is not about "danger" it is about having fun and people who simply are no fun to be around.
My suggestion on expanding the role of war is one possible approach to this problem. It may sound funny but a form of “consensual non-consensual PvP” may strike the needed balance between vision and business.
I really like this game and would love to see it prosper. I think what you have said about making gamepaly available for as many playtypes as possible while retaining as much overall “sense” of realism and context is exactly the right idea. I hope my suggestions are useful and constructive and, if I am lucky, will help spark fresh ideas as to how to achieve this goal.
"Utisz you are a fail troll learn what an mmo is. I hope you get forced to greyspace and i will more then happily turn your ship into a smoldering pile of scrap metal."
Poor sad little troll. You are the sort of person who will end up killing this game. And one more thing kid, it is still only a game and there are no "smoldering piles of scrap metal."
Get a grip on reality and your unimportant place in it.
Poor sad little troll. You are the sort of person who will end up killing this game. And one more thing kid, it is still only a game and there are no "smoldering piles of scrap metal."
Get a grip on reality and your unimportant place in it.
Utisz:
Chill the fuck out dude. Stop trying to ram your ideal's down everyone's throat. Are you just typing to try and annoy me (and others) or do you actually have a point to make? Because I do not see it. All I see is *you* stating (over and over again) that you do not like to be shot at, and also your need to call other people names is great.
Call me a troll, if you like, tell me you do not want to play with me, cos I suck at stuff if you like, but please, take it to the suggestion forums, and stop trolling up-date and news post threads.
Chill the fuck out dude. Stop trying to ram your ideal's down everyone's throat. Are you just typing to try and annoy me (and others) or do you actually have a point to make? Because I do not see it. All I see is *you* stating (over and over again) that you do not like to be shot at, and also your need to call other people names is great.
Call me a troll, if you like, tell me you do not want to play with me, cos I suck at stuff if you like, but please, take it to the suggestion forums, and stop trolling up-date and news post threads.
Yay update!
Yodaofborg
“Because I do not see it. All I see is *you* stating (over and over again) that you do not like to be shot at…”
If you got the impression that this is about me not liking to be shot at then you really did not get it. This game is hemorrhaging players and it is people like you that are in large part responsible for that fact.
I do not give a fart about losing ships and think that pirates----real pirates, are an important part of the game. But I have seen a lot of good people leave the game in disgust at the antics of the trolls. That plus the constant self absorbed drone, of the griefers and trolls on the com channels.
Frankly I prefer AI pirates, whole squadrons of them if necessary, over the current crop of griefers that currently fill that game niche. They have better personalities.
It is no secrete that VO does not have enough players or that many players leave after one or two months. That is a problem that I would like to see fixed. Sorry if the concepts I use are over your head.
“Because I do not see it. All I see is *you* stating (over and over again) that you do not like to be shot at…”
If you got the impression that this is about me not liking to be shot at then you really did not get it. This game is hemorrhaging players and it is people like you that are in large part responsible for that fact.
I do not give a fart about losing ships and think that pirates----real pirates, are an important part of the game. But I have seen a lot of good people leave the game in disgust at the antics of the trolls. That plus the constant self absorbed drone, of the griefers and trolls on the com channels.
Frankly I prefer AI pirates, whole squadrons of them if necessary, over the current crop of griefers that currently fill that game niche. They have better personalities.
It is no secrete that VO does not have enough players or that many players leave after one or two months. That is a problem that I would like to see fixed. Sorry if the concepts I use are over your head.
Okay you two (or more): break it up. Please keep your posts on topic and avoid personal attacks or your posts may be deleted without further notice or discussion. I'm locking this.