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300 : In-character Role Playing Chat.
I think the real issue is, SOME people in this game feel that their way of RP is the only one that is acceptable. Myself, when I RP, I just plain completely and publicly play a character. Impavid was a character who started in the trial, got killed by Lecter (thanks for that by the way) got upset, asked lots of n00b questions, became friends with Strat and eventually became a Viper. Throughout that RP I constantly dropped clues in the chats, in CNN and in Impavid's own posts on the forums. Impavid became very well liked and respected. When I finally did the "big reveal" there was a pretty epic reaction, and it was almost entirely positive. The devs even made a Tumble widget for us to chase around with and we did a galaxy spanning chase and bantered over 100, it was very fun, and in the end, the traitor tumblemonster/impavid was imprisoned at Viper HQ. The Vipers, for their part, were thrilled, it really put us on a stage and gave us all some fun RP to play out in game to give a solid end to the story.
One player, and by association this players care-bear friends, reacted differently. Basically, they went apeshit (a story much better told on CLMs forum), and here we still are. For them, I was trying to destroy the Vipers, I was trying to ruin their game, I was stealing their information and money and blah blah blah, then the face shooting bit we all know.
Borb. Leber, and Lector are the same. I remember at one point Borb had a different character in every guild. Leber turned into Lexicon and ran for months doing the RP. I was a founding member of PA, the guild I despise so much. I was also a founder of the new SCAR some distant time ago. None of you know who those characters are, because I RPed them completely, and while coming out at the end was the whole point of Impavid, those other stories have different endings.
Other players prefer a more scripted, obvious RP style, one that clearly says "HEY EVERYONE! WE'RE RPING NOW!". It's a style I personally don't enjoy, but I don't have anything against anyone else doing it. In VO though, it's harder to sustain, because there are so few players and so much space. Staying in character while other people are basically playing space quake around you is hard, and I think probably frustrating for these people, because they can't seem to integrate that with what's going on around them. The game itself doesn't offer the layers necessary for full time character driven RP either. Have a RP only chat is fine, but it's like playing to an empty theater.
What are we to do? Well I think firstly, letting people do their own thing would be a GREAT start. Targeting specific players and ruining their game or trying to drive them out of the game because you don't like how they play isn't going to get respect for your playing style.
Secondly, as whytiee said, "it's a GODDAMN GAME."
Play the GAME.
One player, and by association this players care-bear friends, reacted differently. Basically, they went apeshit (a story much better told on CLMs forum), and here we still are. For them, I was trying to destroy the Vipers, I was trying to ruin their game, I was stealing their information and money and blah blah blah, then the face shooting bit we all know.
Borb. Leber, and Lector are the same. I remember at one point Borb had a different character in every guild. Leber turned into Lexicon and ran for months doing the RP. I was a founding member of PA, the guild I despise so much. I was also a founder of the new SCAR some distant time ago. None of you know who those characters are, because I RPed them completely, and while coming out at the end was the whole point of Impavid, those other stories have different endings.
Other players prefer a more scripted, obvious RP style, one that clearly says "HEY EVERYONE! WE'RE RPING NOW!". It's a style I personally don't enjoy, but I don't have anything against anyone else doing it. In VO though, it's harder to sustain, because there are so few players and so much space. Staying in character while other people are basically playing space quake around you is hard, and I think probably frustrating for these people, because they can't seem to integrate that with what's going on around them. The game itself doesn't offer the layers necessary for full time character driven RP either. Have a RP only chat is fine, but it's like playing to an empty theater.
What are we to do? Well I think firstly, letting people do their own thing would be a GREAT start. Targeting specific players and ruining their game or trying to drive them out of the game because you don't like how they play isn't going to get respect for your playing style.
Secondly, as whytiee said, "it's a GODDAMN GAME."
Play the GAME.
Lecter, neither have I. Apparently the forums were enough. :|
In all absolute honesty, it's just the confused nature of the game. It does say MMORPG but most people these days equate RPG to Diablo or WoW, which is dungeon rolling or rollplaying (as it was called). Rolling by the stats, letting them define your character.
Some people also think that an RPG is a game that gives you a role to play as. But that's the same with every game. The Halo series, you are a super soldier out to save humanity. That is a role.
Roleplaying is stuff like what Lecter and Hortan do. Embodying their characters, no matter how much you might hate them. In fact, they're doing a damn good job if you hate their characters, they're just that much more believable. Think of it as acting for amateur geeks.
Between the fact that most of society thinks RPG means "4 stam 4 strength leather belt" and that almost nothing is enforcing on the community here, the community does what it pleases and what it thinks is roleplaying.
Which, fyi, personal attacks are not.
Any solution? Personally, that is up to the community, because the community has been raising itself for many years now. Sans guidance, for the most part.
In all absolute honesty, it's just the confused nature of the game. It does say MMORPG but most people these days equate RPG to Diablo or WoW, which is dungeon rolling or rollplaying (as it was called). Rolling by the stats, letting them define your character.
Some people also think that an RPG is a game that gives you a role to play as. But that's the same with every game. The Halo series, you are a super soldier out to save humanity. That is a role.
Roleplaying is stuff like what Lecter and Hortan do. Embodying their characters, no matter how much you might hate them. In fact, they're doing a damn good job if you hate their characters, they're just that much more believable. Think of it as acting for amateur geeks.
Between the fact that most of society thinks RPG means "4 stam 4 strength leather belt" and that almost nothing is enforcing on the community here, the community does what it pleases and what it thinks is roleplaying.
Which, fyi, personal attacks are not.
Any solution? Personally, that is up to the community, because the community has been raising itself for many years now. Sans guidance, for the most part.
Hey, until someone went all shootemindaface/crashtheirburningcaroffabridge, I think we were doing pretty well in the ole sandbox, Moldy. At least keep your anger limited to in-game threats, and we'll all be fine.
Indeed.
VO is pretty good for roleplaying, haters aside.
VO is pretty good for roleplaying, haters aside.
Well, a game called vendetta with a focus on combat is bound to cause animosity. The problem as I see it is that animosity is given a verbal outlet by the easy availability of a universal channel. We are a small community at present so too often verbal escalation takes the place of what should be essentially good combat flying. Why anyone should take that further into RL is completely beyond me, but I shall limit myself to commenting on the game as I see it .
I know that the devs are working towards a new communication system that will be more appropriate for a universe with hundreds or thousands of players rather than tens. Clearly in a universe with hundreds online the use of the universal channel will have to be limited both within the game and from IRC, or it will just become unreadable. That will make the universal arguments much harder to start and maintain, and I rather think that will be a good thing, since communication by voice or text will be focussed at group, guild or sector level. Players who wish to get into slanging matches would have to form a group or go to the same sector, and that simply wouldn't happen.
I do appreciate that that is some way off, and so in the mean time I would endorse Hortans feeling that folk should try and moderate the level of personal argument on 100. If we want the game to progress then the community has to be seen in a reasonable light by new players joining the game, if they see chat room style insults being bandied about many are just going to go elsewhere.
For my own part I intend to minimise my use of 100 and make an effort to use the others channels of communication more effectively.
Ecka.
I know that the devs are working towards a new communication system that will be more appropriate for a universe with hundreds or thousands of players rather than tens. Clearly in a universe with hundreds online the use of the universal channel will have to be limited both within the game and from IRC, or it will just become unreadable. That will make the universal arguments much harder to start and maintain, and I rather think that will be a good thing, since communication by voice or text will be focussed at group, guild or sector level. Players who wish to get into slanging matches would have to form a group or go to the same sector, and that simply wouldn't happen.
I do appreciate that that is some way off, and so in the mean time I would endorse Hortans feeling that folk should try and moderate the level of personal argument on 100. If we want the game to progress then the community has to be seen in a reasonable light by new players joining the game, if they see chat room style insults being bandied about many are just going to go elsewhere.
For my own part I intend to minimise my use of 100 and make an effort to use the others channels of communication more effectively.
Ecka.
Those are some well put together comments tumble. I for one really enjoyed what Impavid/tumble did for me personally. I can remember several times I spent flying back and forth from the Latos WH sector getting my rear blown up in friendly fights with Impavid. He was always played perfectly and I thought it was excellent when we all found out he was actually tumble WOW total suprise.
But that is neither here nor there atm. I wanted to add(and repeat) that personal attacks at someone not having to do with ingame characters doesn't belong on 100 for everyone to see. I have in no way been privy to everything that transpired, and have no doubt participated in some at one point,and for that I am sorry. That in itself makes it impossible for me to throw stones so I just wanted to say.
Come on everyone we've got a great game here lets just play.
Hell tumble come back just to blow me up you used to enjoy doin that.
But that is neither here nor there atm. I wanted to add(and repeat) that personal attacks at someone not having to do with ingame characters doesn't belong on 100 for everyone to see. I have in no way been privy to everything that transpired, and have no doubt participated in some at one point,and for that I am sorry. That in itself makes it impossible for me to throw stones so I just wanted to say.
Come on everyone we've got a great game here lets just play.
Hell tumble come back just to blow me up you used to enjoy doin that.
Hi. This topic has floated around enough times, I'll try to keep this as short as I can. In general, we try to stay out of the way of people role-playing (and support it when we can). However, when certain lines are crossed into extensive, repeated personal attacks and abuse, the situation becomes unacceptable.
Like the Rules of Conduct say:
2. You may not use any sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive language.
9. "Role-playing" does not grant license to violate these rules.
Though Vendetta Online is a Role-playing game, the claim of "Role-play" will not be accepted in defense of any of the anti-social behaviors mentioned above. We strongly encourage role-playing, but cannot allow it to be done at the expense of others.
-------------
I recognize that there is a lot of genuine role-playing going on out there, and that it is sometimes complicated by personal problems between individuals rather than characters. However, we mostly look at behaviour on 100.. if you want to use a special role-playing channel, or create a new channel for more umm.. "extreme roleplaying", well, I don't care at this time. But keep it off of the default channels (1/100/etc). You also cannot say "well, I'm using harmful, abusive, defamatory and obscene language directed at specific individuals, but I'm just roleplaying a bastard. The person bearing the brunt of my abuse isn't role-playing at all and is reacting out of context (ie, normally), but that's just their problem." That isn't going to wash, especially on our public channels. Even beyond the individual directly affected, it can cast a negative pall on the game/community for newbies. If it's over a special RP channel, then at least it's mutually-joined by both parties.
This is a combative game, there's a certain amount of good-natured trash-talking that goes with the territory. We get that. But when one person make repeated personal attacks on another, in a public forum, for days and weeks and months on end, that crosses the line of acceptability. Don't do that, and generally speaking, we won't get involved.
I would also like to make a historical point, in reference to the various personal issues that exist between some of our players: When Arolte became the Hated Guy Of The Moment, I was badgered by a significant number of players to take action. An entire guild threatened to quit if he wasn't penalized in some way. However, his behaviour was not abusive or defamatory or even personally directed in any way that I could see (they just didn't like how he tended to attack and then run away, while making mildly sarcastic comments). I didn't particularly like, or agree with, his playing style; but I did not find that it crossed any lines as far as our policies were concerned, and told the various complainers that I would not be taking action. That pissed a lot of them off and resulted in even more drama.
I bring this up only to illustrate that, by and large, we take action based on behaviour. All the people in the world can complain about a specific individual, but if that person is toeing the line, we aren't going to get involved. If that individual is crossing the line, we are. "The Line" we try to enforce with some degree of flexibility, again, to accommodate our role players and generally avoid being authoritarian nazis. Previously, this balance has worked out fairly well. However, when a problem persists for a long period of time after multiple warnings and email conversations, we run out of options.
Taking administrative action is about the last thing we want to do. If we wanted or expected VO to be a carebear universe, we would be a hell of a lot more fascist. But generally, we only step in when a problem recurs to an unacceptable extent over a period of time.
Like the Rules of Conduct say:
2. You may not use any sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive language.
9. "Role-playing" does not grant license to violate these rules.
Though Vendetta Online is a Role-playing game, the claim of "Role-play" will not be accepted in defense of any of the anti-social behaviors mentioned above. We strongly encourage role-playing, but cannot allow it to be done at the expense of others.
-------------
I recognize that there is a lot of genuine role-playing going on out there, and that it is sometimes complicated by personal problems between individuals rather than characters. However, we mostly look at behaviour on 100.. if you want to use a special role-playing channel, or create a new channel for more umm.. "extreme roleplaying", well, I don't care at this time. But keep it off of the default channels (1/100/etc). You also cannot say "well, I'm using harmful, abusive, defamatory and obscene language directed at specific individuals, but I'm just roleplaying a bastard. The person bearing the brunt of my abuse isn't role-playing at all and is reacting out of context (ie, normally), but that's just their problem." That isn't going to wash, especially on our public channels. Even beyond the individual directly affected, it can cast a negative pall on the game/community for newbies. If it's over a special RP channel, then at least it's mutually-joined by both parties.
This is a combative game, there's a certain amount of good-natured trash-talking that goes with the territory. We get that. But when one person make repeated personal attacks on another, in a public forum, for days and weeks and months on end, that crosses the line of acceptability. Don't do that, and generally speaking, we won't get involved.
I would also like to make a historical point, in reference to the various personal issues that exist between some of our players: When Arolte became the Hated Guy Of The Moment, I was badgered by a significant number of players to take action. An entire guild threatened to quit if he wasn't penalized in some way. However, his behaviour was not abusive or defamatory or even personally directed in any way that I could see (they just didn't like how he tended to attack and then run away, while making mildly sarcastic comments). I didn't particularly like, or agree with, his playing style; but I did not find that it crossed any lines as far as our policies were concerned, and told the various complainers that I would not be taking action. That pissed a lot of them off and resulted in even more drama.
I bring this up only to illustrate that, by and large, we take action based on behaviour. All the people in the world can complain about a specific individual, but if that person is toeing the line, we aren't going to get involved. If that individual is crossing the line, we are. "The Line" we try to enforce with some degree of flexibility, again, to accommodate our role players and generally avoid being authoritarian nazis. Previously, this balance has worked out fairly well. However, when a problem persists for a long period of time after multiple warnings and email conversations, we run out of options.
Taking administrative action is about the last thing we want to do. If we wanted or expected VO to be a carebear universe, we would be a hell of a lot more fascist. But generally, we only step in when a problem recurs to an unacceptable extent over a period of time.
Understandable. But you have to admit, it can cause a situation where people keep pushing the envelope. Just to see where the limits are. And so far, the limits haven't been breached (I believe).
It depends on what you mean by "been breached", I guess. We have yet to permanently ban anyone.
We usually talk to individuals privately, as we find it makes the issues easier to resolve when the discussion isn't public and people's egos aren't quite as engaged. There are a great many people who have been "talked to" by guides to some extent, and a smaller (but still non-trivial) number who I've directly emailed after the situation went beyond the guides, or under other circumstances.
It's certainly not a perfect situation, some people do tend to test boundaries, it eats into development time and has potential for more problems as we (hopefully) grow. But, it's the best we've been able to do for the moment, with limited resources, and most of the time it's worked pretty well.
I can't just turn 100 into a "/ignore" free-for-all at the moment. We have too many new people on at any given time. Plus, I don't think our basic guidelines for behaviour are that unreasonable.
We usually talk to individuals privately, as we find it makes the issues easier to resolve when the discussion isn't public and people's egos aren't quite as engaged. There are a great many people who have been "talked to" by guides to some extent, and a smaller (but still non-trivial) number who I've directly emailed after the situation went beyond the guides, or under other circumstances.
It's certainly not a perfect situation, some people do tend to test boundaries, it eats into development time and has potential for more problems as we (hopefully) grow. But, it's the best we've been able to do for the moment, with limited resources, and most of the time it's worked pretty well.
I can't just turn 100 into a "/ignore" free-for-all at the moment. We have too many new people on at any given time. Plus, I don't think our basic guidelines for behaviour are that unreasonable.
Zam said:This is Vendetta, and in Vendetta, vendetta's happen. Occasionally it happens more often then not. Stop whining. Leave 100 or turn off chat if you don't like it.
Zam you should not have taken that back. That's exactly the sentiment the game needs. Not more passive-aggressive backbiting, whisper campaigns, and rumormongering.
The devs need to spend their time working on the game and not refereeing crap like this. I think the /vote mute squad should maybe take a month off and go outside & play. Hey - it's summer! go throw a ball around or sumtin.
Zam you should not have taken that back. That's exactly the sentiment the game needs. Not more passive-aggressive backbiting, whisper campaigns, and rumormongering.
The devs need to spend their time working on the game and not refereeing crap like this. I think the /vote mute squad should maybe take a month off and go outside & play. Hey - it's summer! go throw a ball around or sumtin.
Well, again, there is the extremely prominent (in my mind) point of newbs. There is no way that anyone wants to start playing the game to hear a bunch of grown men* fighting over a game
I think this is actually something worth arguing over. (maybe we need a flamewar fourm) If I'm not mistaken, when it comes managing channels and noobs and flamewars, the devs are having nightmares. Further discussion should be useful.
* No, I'm not going to add a joke there. Honestly.
I think this is actually something worth arguing over. (maybe we need a flamewar fourm) If I'm not mistaken, when it comes managing channels and noobs and flamewars, the devs are having nightmares. Further discussion should be useful.
* No, I'm not going to add a joke there. Honestly.
Does someone need to sit in the time-out sector?
*raises hand* Ooh Ooh!! Pick me! Pick me! I wanna go to the time out sector! PWEASE!
Seriously tho.. There are certain things I see about this game that keeps me coming back. The biggest is the twitch combat.. Why do they keep me "coming back" instead of "staying" ? Well.. partly due to the small number of active players at any time, and yes, I am aware of the reasons and I agree with them. The other reason? It seems that of the active players, many of them are basically small-minded, petty little punks that do nothing more than whine and complain over general chat about how "this sucks, that sucks, you suck, he sucks. you all suck.." etc etc
Pisses me off.
No.. thats not even correct.. More like, disgusts me. I can handle swearing, risque fun, after all, I was a trucker for 5years.. I can "sailor it up" all day and night and never get bored.
Whiners and complainers? 5 words for them..
Get The %$## Over It.
period.
break19/EZR
Seriously tho.. There are certain things I see about this game that keeps me coming back. The biggest is the twitch combat.. Why do they keep me "coming back" instead of "staying" ? Well.. partly due to the small number of active players at any time, and yes, I am aware of the reasons and I agree with them. The other reason? It seems that of the active players, many of them are basically small-minded, petty little punks that do nothing more than whine and complain over general chat about how "this sucks, that sucks, you suck, he sucks. you all suck.." etc etc
Pisses me off.
No.. thats not even correct.. More like, disgusts me. I can handle swearing, risque fun, after all, I was a trucker for 5years.. I can "sailor it up" all day and night and never get bored.
Whiners and complainers? 5 words for them..
Get The %$## Over It.
period.
break19/EZR
I just think the personal attacks need to be toned down and language as well. Some comments are completely unnecessary. The game has a small enough community as it is, we dont want to drive away any new potential due to being a jerk on 100. If your Roleplaying a jerk, roleplay on the RP channel or in sector. No need for it on the public 100 channel.
The chat filter works well, doesn't it? Maybe if it replaced words with funny words instead of asterisks or whatever it does? I usually watch my language because it's dumb to limit your vocabulary, but since I think it's silly to be offended by a word just because it comes from German I use them occasionally in 100 or anywhere. Not if there's someone around who I know gets offended, though.
Just to recap for 'assigned' channel usage:
1 : Help channel
11 : Nation chat (Only members of the same nation can see this chat)
14 : [IA] Recruiting Channel. Itani Alliance
69 : Planetside players channel
70 : German chat
97 : Windows Users Channel
98 : Linux Users Channel
99 : Apple Macintosh Users Channel
100 : General Chat
101 : French Chat
102 : Russian Chat
103 : Spanish Chat
104 : Dutch Chat
105 : Norwegian Chat
106 : Finnish Chat
111 : Help Channel (alternate channel in case channel 1 is crowded)
201 : Itani Convoy Transmissions (not for chat)
202 : Serco Convoy Transmissions (not for chat)
205 : Public Capship info Channel
300 : In-character Role Playing Chat.
411 : EnB events chat.
444 : TGFT Recruitment Channel. The Guild of Free Traders
700 : Political (US) Discussion
701 : Platform discussions
911 : Emergency Channel
946 : Public IDF Channel Itani Defense Force
1313: Elite Guild Recruitment and info channel (public)
1337 : Off-topic chat channel
4357 : Viper channel to report pirate activity
123567: SCAR Recruitment Channel. Serco Cadre of Armed Renegades
I do suspect these channels are not used to the best interest as they should be. However making people aware of the channels should be job #1 for everyone and this will fix the chat issue for the biggest part. (problem being excessive clutter on 100 durring heavy player activity.) If things were broken up into respected channels that would allow over flow and selective viewing. I.E. CNN broadcasts on channel 300 so if I do not want to see that then i have 2 choices, 1) /part 300, 2) /ignore CNN. Further from that you always have the vote mute option if someone is very abusive and working multiple channels or what not.
From everything here we, the player base, have all the tools in place for a very working structure but sadly like I said above I feel this system is not used as it should be.
1 : Help channel
11 : Nation chat (Only members of the same nation can see this chat)
14 : [IA] Recruiting Channel. Itani Alliance
69 : Planetside players channel
70 : German chat
97 : Windows Users Channel
98 : Linux Users Channel
99 : Apple Macintosh Users Channel
100 : General Chat
101 : French Chat
102 : Russian Chat
103 : Spanish Chat
104 : Dutch Chat
105 : Norwegian Chat
106 : Finnish Chat
111 : Help Channel (alternate channel in case channel 1 is crowded)
201 : Itani Convoy Transmissions (not for chat)
202 : Serco Convoy Transmissions (not for chat)
205 : Public Capship info Channel
300 : In-character Role Playing Chat.
411 : EnB events chat.
444 : TGFT Recruitment Channel. The Guild of Free Traders
700 : Political (US) Discussion
701 : Platform discussions
911 : Emergency Channel
946 : Public IDF Channel Itani Defense Force
1313: Elite Guild Recruitment and info channel (public)
1337 : Off-topic chat channel
4357 : Viper channel to report pirate activity
123567: SCAR Recruitment Channel. Serco Cadre of Armed Renegades
I do suspect these channels are not used to the best interest as they should be. However making people aware of the channels should be job #1 for everyone and this will fix the chat issue for the biggest part. (problem being excessive clutter on 100 durring heavy player activity.) If things were broken up into respected channels that would allow over flow and selective viewing. I.E. CNN broadcasts on channel 300 so if I do not want to see that then i have 2 choices, 1) /part 300, 2) /ignore CNN. Further from that you always have the vote mute option if someone is very abusive and working multiple channels or what not.
From everything here we, the player base, have all the tools in place for a very working structure but sadly like I said above I feel this system is not used as it should be.
OK...no one freak out but I'm going to make a suggestion in the general forum. to make better and easier use of the different channels...could the devs perhaps make a drop menu, maybe with a hot key to cycle through the channels and a brief description? this way people who dont know that these channels exist would be better able to find them. dont know how easy this would be, but it seems like it might help.
I agree that a large part of this problem has to do with our chat system. It's only going to get worse once the player-base gets larger. Now might be a good time to consider making some changes to the in-game communication system.
Personally, I wonder why everyone focuses on the technical aspects whenever a problem pops up. Instead of the people factor.
Yes, the game could be "better" as far as chat and community management goes, coding side. But it's not really a discussion about that is it?
Yes, the game could be "better" as far as chat and community management goes, coding side. But it's not really a discussion about that is it?