Forums » General
I could summarize things but it would be even more subjective, so I'm going to hurt your eyeballs by pasting the recent posts from the station news thread that Whistler wants to erase (for prudent reason, it isnt the topic of the thread).
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Mon 12:06PM Whistler
You may not have noticed - I haven't been publishing the CNN "news". While I appreciate the humor at times, I don't think the pieces meet the standards for publication in the Station News.
Tue 05:35PM Impavid
Well whistler, that's shitty, considering Im one of the few people making an effort to add content to the game which, with the exception of a few haters, people seem to enjoy.
Tue 08:15PM Quirc
Why not post CNN articles? They bring a lot of game-related humor to the station news... if it wasn't for CNN I'd likely ignore the feature altogether.
Tue 09:10PM Whistler
I do appreciate the efforts at content, and I do enjoy your posts.
We were asked to maintain some sort of journalistic standards for the Station News. You may have noticed that we try to spruce up the spelling and grammar, for instance. We were also asked to keep things in the "news" format seen in the first post. Lastly, we try to maintain a somewhat "serious" tone. While I do find the CNN posts amusing, they are a bit too lampoonish for the Station News.
Tue 09:27PM Impavid
Content is content whistler. My spelling is good, my grammar is excellent, and I have written some great stories that weren't lampoonish or satirical that were also not posted. One of the more recent was in the exact style of what foo fighter just wrote (and substantially less than his utter propaganda), but you didn't post it.
Tue 09:40PM Whistler
I'm sorry you are unhappy with this. I beleive that I am doing a good job of following the guidelines Incarnate gave me. You're welcome to take it up with him.
I did not criticize YOUR spelling and grammar, nor did I indicate that those issues are a barrier to publication (as I spellcheck them before publication).
If I failed to publish CNN posts, it was because I read them and felt them to be lampoonish or otherwise unsuitable. I'm sorry you disagree. I think I did explain this in a post some time ago.
I disagree that the "[ITAN] DECLARE PEACE IN DENEB" item (which appears in edited form in the Station News) is in the "exact style" as what you wrote.
I think I've covered the rest.
Tue 09:44PM Impavid
Not either of the last two were in that style, but several I have posted that were ignored.
Whatever. I'm getting used to this anyway.
Tue 09:59PM Whistler
"Several" is a severe overstatement. I suspect you didn't even realize that that I hadn't published the last two until I said something again. I think I might have passed on 1-2 of your posts prior to this.
I searched for "CORVUS NEWS NETWORK" and found your previous posts in the RP forum (you generally post in RP and then here as well). I think you may have neglected to post some of those "several" posts here in this thread. I haven't cleaned house in this thread since before June 27th.
Tue 10:48PM Impavid
You've only posted 6 station news items since June. I noticed you passed on several and didn't say anything at the time.
Tue 11:50PM Whistler
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Aside from your last 2 CNN posts, I've published everything (5 or 6, yes) that's been submitted in this thread since I last cleaned the thread up in late June. I haven't deleted anything since then, nor do I think anyone else has.
As I've stated earlier, I beleive I did respond to one of your previous CNN posts (prior to June and long since deleted) stating that it wouldn't be published and why. Since you kept posting anyway, I thought that was just part of the schtick and I let it go without publishing or comment.
03:04AM Quirc
I'm a severe forum nubbin here, so copy and paste is my friend.
Tue 11:50PM Whistler
"I'm not sure what you're talking about. Aside from your last 2 CNN posts, I've published everything (5 or 6, yes) that's been submitted in this thread since I last cleaned the thread up in late June. I haven't deleted anything since then, nor do I think anyone else has.
As I've stated earlier, I beleive I did respond to one of your previous CNN posts (prior to June and long since deleted) stating that it wouldn't be published and why. Since you kept posting anyway, I thought that was just part of the schtick and I let it go without publishing or comment."
I believe earlier you mentioned something about standards of journalism, ferrets, the evil empire of ted, etc. Things like that.
I'm trying to sort out why these two statements can come out of the same mouth. Last I knew, a common standard of journalism was inclusion as opposed to exclusion (also known as freedom of speech and not being a meanie). Yes, CNN posts are 'lampoonish' and silly, or w/e. Well... what about the Onion? The Onion, in what some of us refer to as "Real Life", is the same way. It's also posted up on the internet like many other things.
Now, as far as I'm seeing, the Station News tab is a place for players to post RP stuff, and as such express themselves (just as public media is also intended in real life). It could easily be said that the CNN articles fall in the same category as, say The Onion. With due respect Whistler (and from someone with an outside perspective), what right do you have in judging which of these works are "worthy" of being posted? Yes, I know, you have to make sure there isn't anything vulgar, insulting, etc. But the CNN posts are perfectly safe in these regards from what I'm seeing; they don't seem to breach any rules or regulations. In short, it appears to me that you're following your personal views of censorship and standards as opposed to the original rules.
In the top post made by Obsidian it lists the requirements for a news article:
"A few examples of items that won't be posted:
personal ads
hate mail
Please include the following information:
Subject:
Organization responsible for the post:
Which Factions should see the post: we can set it so you have to be liked by a faction to see the post (Serco, Itani, UIT)
Relevant dates/times:
Text: "
The subject is quite clear, recent happenings in VO from a greyspace perspective. Organization responsible? Obviously a news network, CNN. What factions can see it? Everyone. Dates and times aren't specified, but it's a news brief and contains commentary (quite clean might I add) on recent events. Text is obviously there as well.
So unless we're bashing the author on not having EXACT DATES AND TIMES for his brief... what's the problem here? Well, you told us, so I'll quote if that's okay.
Mon 12:06PM Whistler
"You may not have noticed - I haven't been publishing the CNN "news". While I appreciate the humor at times, I don't think the pieces meet the standards for publication in the Station News."
Unfortunately, based on the pilot post of this thread we've already established that CNN articles more or less meet publication standards. I wish to ask, sir, if you are following those standards or your own. Although this quote may answer that...
Tue 09:10PM Whistler
"...Lastly, we try to maintain a somewhat "serious" tone. While I do find the CNN posts amusing, they are a bit too lampoonish for the Station News."
You recently published an ITAN article having to do with peace in Deneb. As you also mentioned earlier in this thread, you attempt to maintain immersion. If this is true, you must be well aware of the Vendetta Online backstory; the conflict in Deneb has been going on for a very, very long time. Unless you can inform me that, if I were to visit Deneb, the Border Patrol/Skirmish sectors would be devoid of Serco vessels... I'm pretty sure this conflict is still going on. Therefore, the article is either quite lampoonish indeed (note that an LT of ITAN disputed one of the CNN claims, saying that ITAN never declared war on greyspace, a complaint that seems to have been sustained) or, beg my saying, someone may be playing favorites.
Yes, you could say that the ITAN post is propaganda, or simply a organization making a claim, and it should be allowed. I'm not disputing whether the ITAN article should be permitted because it meets standards. But the CNN post is no different; it provides a perspective on happenings, one just as subjective and biased as the ITAN article. And yet, the CNN post is dismissed while the ITAN post makes it.
I do hold respect for you, Whistler, as well as the other guides/devs/etc that help keep everything running. But please stop with this, it's outrageous; clearly, the CNN articles are quite qualified. If you're refusing to post a written work because it makes people smile and laugh, completely ignoring that under such things it is still a genuine RP work, then I would dare say that you are being quite unprofessional. Please do the right thing and allow these CNN posts into the station news.
Thank you.
-Quirc Taranis
03:11AM Quirc
Also, as a side note, until I see a personally satisfactory resolution to this issue, I'm going to pretend I'm important by personally boycotting the RP forums. Those few players that are waiting on my next installment of my story will have to wait. I refuse to submit my own work to an organization that, from my perception, is appearing selective in what it allows others to view. I'm just one player, but it's something I feel I need to do for now.
06:36AM EddyHolland
Hi Quirc
Re: "You recently published an ITAN article having to do with peace in Deneb. ...
Unless you can inform me that, if I were to visit Deneb, the Border Patrol/Skirmish sectors would be devoid of Serco vessels... I'm pretty sure this conflict is still going on...
Yes, you could say that the ITAN post is propaganda, or simply a organization making a claim, and it should be allowed. I'm not disputing whether the ITAN article should be permitted ... one just as subjective and biased as the ITAN article. "
Quirc, the itani players were able to clear serco vessels from the said sectors. During nearly the entire period of that RP event there were no serco NPCs in Deneb. 90% of the time that Serco players entered Deneb during that campaign, they did not get past B12. You had only to visit the area to confirm that. Since it's now past, you could rely on any number of veteran players who did witness it. So, [ITAN] story is based in fact, you should not dismiss it as Propaganda or being lampoonish, since it is not. It was an RP event [ITAN] organized and invited the Serco to participate in. To the extent that some Serco did participate, it was a success.
12:26PM Whistler
Does the New York Times publish the same sort of articles as the Onion? Why don't they share stories with the Enquirer? Why don't newspapers just publish whatever can be found on the internet. To say that articles like the more lampoonish CNN articles are published in "real life" is missing the point of this discussion. We're talking about the Station News within the VO universe.
The New York Times, the Onion, the Enquirer, USA Today, and all the others have differing standards. (No, I'm not equating the SN with the NY Times -it's just an example.) I'm not certain if they publish their more subjective standards - but they DO have subjective standards. It's immediately obvious when you read any of those publications.
The brief guidelines set forth by Obsidian are only part of the story. The devs have also given the guides some rather loose instructions for publication - which I have paraphrased earlier. If we were given clearer instructions, they'd have been posted. If you like, I can append her post.
"... what right do you have in judging which of these works are "worthy" of being posted? " The guides were given a general idea of what the devs desired and asked to "use your judgement". It was inevitable that one of us would find something unsuitable and somebody would question our judgement. You are certainly welcome to write incarnate and have him clarify the guidelines for us.
Let me be clear: I don't particularly CARE what gets published or who writes it. I'm doing these little odd jobs to help out the developers because I like what they're doing and I want to free them up for other things. If they say "publish all CNN articles!" then I certainly will do that without any further discussion. This is not my baby, my name is not on the News byline, and I can assure you that I have more than enough responsibility in my life so as not to become "drunk with power" here. If somebody else wants to do it, that's okay by me - but they'll still have to answer to the devs as to what gets published.
I think I've been very polite and professional about this. I remind you again that you are free to write incarnate and let him know you disagree.
12:34PM MSKanaka
Not to toss the words 'slander' and 'libel' around like tennis balls, but the CNN posts frequently fall into those categories. And I could easily see that being a requirement for a potential newspost to fall into 'not being posted' bins.
Recent example? The BS about the "Panis Virus". Leave the kid the hell alone already. He's got enough crap going on without having to deal with jokes based on words similar to his name or people making fake alts all over the place.
07:32PM Quirc
12:26PM Whistler
"Does the New York Times publish the same sort of articles as the Onion?"
No.
"Why don't they share stories with the Enquirer?"
Different kinds of media, the only similarity is that they're both available to the public.
"To say that articles like the more lampoonish CNN articles are published in "real life" is missing the point of this discussion. We're talking about the Station News within the VO universe... The New York Times, the Onion, the Enquirer, USA Today, and all the others have differing standards."
I believe you've missed the point actually. I'm simply explaining that, in actuality, the Station News is the only ingame outlet for written works. I'm sure CNN would be in stands next to store registers if that feature existed in VO. But it doesn't, so here it is. Needless to say, the NY Times as well as the Enquirer are both openly distributed. I don't see the government stopping this (yet) and, likewise, I don't see why VO's 'government' should stop CNN in this regard. Besides, I highly doubt Serco and Itani propaganda would end up on the same newspaper either. But they've both appeared there at one point or another... and they both have differing standards too.
"The brief guidelines set forth by Obsidian are only part of the story. The devs have also given the guides some rather loose instructions for publication - which I have paraphrased earlier. If we were given clearer instructions, they'd have been posted. If you like, I can append her post."
Paraphrasing is nice... can you call upon my friend, Copy/Paste, and please show us clearly what these additional instructions are? Also, appending Obsidian's post would be quite prudent. I see absolutely no reason to have 'hidden' rules and regulations; rather, I find it somewhat rude that such things are only made aware to devs and guides as opposed to the authors that take time out of THEIR lives to make VO a better place by supplying this material. No Whistler, you aren't the only one helping the devs.
"You are certainly welcome to write incarnate and have him clarify the guidelines for us."
By what right should I immediately have to run to John about everything under the sun? Devs have guides, etc. for a reason; in the end, they're only human, and they need others to help them resolve issues. If you don't feel you can resolve this on your own, then take it to him. But I'm a player, and a customer, and I'm coming to you right now. Not him.
"Let me be clear: I don't particularly CARE what gets published or who writes it. I'm doing these little odd jobs to help out the developers because I like what they're doing and I want to free them up for other things. If they say "publish all CNN articles!" then I certainly will do that without any further discussion."
I didn't know you needed special permission for every single article. Talk about bureaucracy.
"This is not my baby, my name is not on the News byline, and I can assure you that I have more than enough responsibility in my life so as not to become "drunk with power" here. If somebody else wants to do it, that's okay by me - but they'll still have to answer to the devs as to what gets published."
Let me remind you again that the CNN author, and all other authors here, are also helping the devs by providing potential game content. You aren't alone, and they're taking time out too.
I'm not asking someone else to do it; in short, I'm asking you to review the CNN articles again and explain to me specifically what is stopping them from being posted (don't repeat yourself, you've been quite generalist). You seem to enjoy using blanket terms on the articles, and you aren't giving the author the chance to discuss and appeal your decision openly with you. To me, this is far from a good thing.
12:34PM MSKanaka
"Not to toss the words 'slander' and 'libel' around like tennis balls, but the CNN posts frequently fall into those categories. And I could easily see that being a requirement for a potential newspost to fall into 'not being posted' bins..."
Not to toss them around more, but the recent ITAN article describing peace in Deneb (sorry spidey, I'm pullin it out again) could easily be described by those words from the perspective of a Serco player. However, it was permitted.
"Recent example? The BS about the "Panis Virus". Leave the kid the hell alone already."
If Panis feels this portion of the article shouldn't be included, he can appeal here or after it's posted and I'm sure it would be excluded from that point. He could also go directly to a dev or guide. I can understand why these lines would violate policy from your perspective (even though none of it really takes the form of a personal attack... note that any examples made are clean). But pointing at one portion of an article (especially the CNN news brief, in which taking one part out wouldn't do much damage to the entire work) does not justify excluding it entirely; if this portion is unfit, then it should be excluded and the author notified in case he/she wants a chance to change it to fit things more properly. (ITAN, as a side note... I wasn't personally accusing your article of lying, if you somehow managed to make sure zero Serco NPCs existed in C-10 and the wh all that week, then awesome... but unless they STILL aren't there, which I'm sure would be a problem in the eyes of the devs, that article is no longer holding true by storyline standards.)
06:36AM EddyHolland
"So, [ITAN] story is based in fact, you should not dismiss it as Propaganda or being lampoonish, since it is not. It was an RP event [ITAN] organized and invited the Serco to participate in. To the extent that some Serco did participate, it was a success."
The CNN articles are also based largely in fact, and simply taken from a unique perspective just as your article is. I could easily say "Oh, serco pilots made it to B12 by jumping in, therefore Deneb was hardly devoid", couldn't I? Likewise, I could even write a serco response to your article with that statement included, and I'm sure it'd be posted. So why isn't CNN up there?
12:26PM Whistler
"I think I've been very polite and professional about this. I remind you again that you are free to write incarnate and let him know you disagree."
I'm being redundant at this point, but I'll also remind you again that right now, you're the face of the devs. Act like it, and please don't dismiss this issue so quickly.
08:00PM Impavid
The more your respond whistler, the more your reasoning seems mudled and biased. You used ITANs in game events to justify their propaganda post. I don't dispute that, I think there should be more posts like that, and I commend Foo Fighter for keeping it going. You didn't see them complaining when pirates got involved did you? Made things even more fun. In a game sorely lacking in content, players like myself and Foo are the ones creating content for other players to consume. Just because I put a more satirical tone on things doesn't mean they didn't happen.
So, using your own justification of ITAN's most recent news item being based on actual events, here are my 2 most recent CNN posts analyzed for in game relevance and basis on actual in game events, with handy reference links:
ITAN post: Omega 0 dig declare war on grey space. I LINKED TO THE ENTIRE CHAT TRANSCRIPT. http://h1.ripway.com/keraskorner/logfortumble.txt
Panis Virus: As usual miharu, you're the only person in the game who didn't think it was funny (even panis enjoyed it). This was a satirical article about the fact that everyone seems to have a Panis alt, something he encouraged. One night most of the playerbase created one and Panis was almost the only name on 100 for near an hour. I don't have the transcript of that, but Im sure Incarnate will look it up for you. He's becoming quite adept at scanning the chat.
Sally Koshuni: News item based on LONG ongoing RP with Lebermac and references a post he wrote recently completing the story. http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/17775
Deneb Run: DUH: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/17894 )
Space Gnats: Not true, Just something funny. Meant to entertain. Certainly far more fun to read then yet another delcaration from ITAN that they "Conquered" Deneb with WH camping dev provided cap ship.
Interview with tumblemonster: Also based on ongoing RP and an in game event. I did make 4000 kills, I did announce my retirement, and CNN interviews have a history of going awry.
Six new station news posts since June. That's it. I'd think you'd jump at any interesting content. God forbid Vendetta should have some personality.
08:16PM Quirc
With the support of the author, I rest my case. Whistler, please explain to us in light of all this why you continue to exclude CNN articles.
08:49PM EddyHolland
Impavid/tumblemonster: incorrect.
"miharu, you're the only person in the game who didn't think it was funny" - incorrect. I, amongst others, did not enjoy the Panis hazing. I doubt Panis enjoyed your post item perpetuating the hazing.
Reports of tumblemonster's retirement are complete rubbish. He's been ingame since, and is ingame right now.
I have already made clear that quoting Omega 0 out of context does not constitute being able to imply official ITAN policy. You were just trying to troublemake with that item. That is the item I would have asked to be removed.
08:50PM Whistler
Okay, this is waaaaay too much drama!
I'll keep it simple: It's my call to make, within the guidelines provided to me. I stand behind my previous decisions for the reasons that I have stated already.
08:52PM EddyHolland
Quirc: ORly?
"Not to toss them around more, but the recent ITAN article ... could easily be described by those words ..." - ORly? Care to substantiate that accusation to me, ingame, right now ?
"ITAN ... I wasn't personally accusing your article of lying" - It sure sounds that way. Look, we were there, and you were not. You could ask any vet who was there. Or go pick some other fight.
08:54PM Whistler
This was never meant to be a discussion forum. I'll be removing these off-topic posts after 24 hours from now. Feel free to make a new thread in an appropriate place and move them there.
09:15PM Quirc
Very well, a new thread can be created, but unless you're hoping it simply gets buried and nobody will care (which is well possible) it doesn't instantly make this issue go away.
EDIT: I'm also ignoring ITAN from this point forward as they seem too focused on a flame war as opposed to the issue at hand. Can't teach an old dog new tricks and all that.
09:20PM Whistler
This is probably one of the slowest threads there is. Moving the issue virtually anywhere would be exhuming it.
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Mon 12:06PM Whistler
You may not have noticed - I haven't been publishing the CNN "news". While I appreciate the humor at times, I don't think the pieces meet the standards for publication in the Station News.
Tue 05:35PM Impavid
Well whistler, that's shitty, considering Im one of the few people making an effort to add content to the game which, with the exception of a few haters, people seem to enjoy.
Tue 08:15PM Quirc
Why not post CNN articles? They bring a lot of game-related humor to the station news... if it wasn't for CNN I'd likely ignore the feature altogether.
Tue 09:10PM Whistler
I do appreciate the efforts at content, and I do enjoy your posts.
We were asked to maintain some sort of journalistic standards for the Station News. You may have noticed that we try to spruce up the spelling and grammar, for instance. We were also asked to keep things in the "news" format seen in the first post. Lastly, we try to maintain a somewhat "serious" tone. While I do find the CNN posts amusing, they are a bit too lampoonish for the Station News.
Tue 09:27PM Impavid
Content is content whistler. My spelling is good, my grammar is excellent, and I have written some great stories that weren't lampoonish or satirical that were also not posted. One of the more recent was in the exact style of what foo fighter just wrote (and substantially less than his utter propaganda), but you didn't post it.
Tue 09:40PM Whistler
I'm sorry you are unhappy with this. I beleive that I am doing a good job of following the guidelines Incarnate gave me. You're welcome to take it up with him.
I did not criticize YOUR spelling and grammar, nor did I indicate that those issues are a barrier to publication (as I spellcheck them before publication).
If I failed to publish CNN posts, it was because I read them and felt them to be lampoonish or otherwise unsuitable. I'm sorry you disagree. I think I did explain this in a post some time ago.
I disagree that the "[ITAN] DECLARE PEACE IN DENEB" item (which appears in edited form in the Station News) is in the "exact style" as what you wrote.
I think I've covered the rest.
Tue 09:44PM Impavid
Not either of the last two were in that style, but several I have posted that were ignored.
Whatever. I'm getting used to this anyway.
Tue 09:59PM Whistler
"Several" is a severe overstatement. I suspect you didn't even realize that that I hadn't published the last two until I said something again. I think I might have passed on 1-2 of your posts prior to this.
I searched for "CORVUS NEWS NETWORK" and found your previous posts in the RP forum (you generally post in RP and then here as well). I think you may have neglected to post some of those "several" posts here in this thread. I haven't cleaned house in this thread since before June 27th.
Tue 10:48PM Impavid
You've only posted 6 station news items since June. I noticed you passed on several and didn't say anything at the time.
Tue 11:50PM Whistler
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Aside from your last 2 CNN posts, I've published everything (5 or 6, yes) that's been submitted in this thread since I last cleaned the thread up in late June. I haven't deleted anything since then, nor do I think anyone else has.
As I've stated earlier, I beleive I did respond to one of your previous CNN posts (prior to June and long since deleted) stating that it wouldn't be published and why. Since you kept posting anyway, I thought that was just part of the schtick and I let it go without publishing or comment.
03:04AM Quirc
I'm a severe forum nubbin here, so copy and paste is my friend.
Tue 11:50PM Whistler
"I'm not sure what you're talking about. Aside from your last 2 CNN posts, I've published everything (5 or 6, yes) that's been submitted in this thread since I last cleaned the thread up in late June. I haven't deleted anything since then, nor do I think anyone else has.
As I've stated earlier, I beleive I did respond to one of your previous CNN posts (prior to June and long since deleted) stating that it wouldn't be published and why. Since you kept posting anyway, I thought that was just part of the schtick and I let it go without publishing or comment."
I believe earlier you mentioned something about standards of journalism, ferrets, the evil empire of ted, etc. Things like that.
I'm trying to sort out why these two statements can come out of the same mouth. Last I knew, a common standard of journalism was inclusion as opposed to exclusion (also known as freedom of speech and not being a meanie). Yes, CNN posts are 'lampoonish' and silly, or w/e. Well... what about the Onion? The Onion, in what some of us refer to as "Real Life", is the same way. It's also posted up on the internet like many other things.
Now, as far as I'm seeing, the Station News tab is a place for players to post RP stuff, and as such express themselves (just as public media is also intended in real life). It could easily be said that the CNN articles fall in the same category as, say The Onion. With due respect Whistler (and from someone with an outside perspective), what right do you have in judging which of these works are "worthy" of being posted? Yes, I know, you have to make sure there isn't anything vulgar, insulting, etc. But the CNN posts are perfectly safe in these regards from what I'm seeing; they don't seem to breach any rules or regulations. In short, it appears to me that you're following your personal views of censorship and standards as opposed to the original rules.
In the top post made by Obsidian it lists the requirements for a news article:
"A few examples of items that won't be posted:
personal ads
hate mail
Please include the following information:
Subject:
Organization responsible for the post:
Which Factions should see the post: we can set it so you have to be liked by a faction to see the post (Serco, Itani, UIT)
Relevant dates/times:
Text: "
The subject is quite clear, recent happenings in VO from a greyspace perspective. Organization responsible? Obviously a news network, CNN. What factions can see it? Everyone. Dates and times aren't specified, but it's a news brief and contains commentary (quite clean might I add) on recent events. Text is obviously there as well.
So unless we're bashing the author on not having EXACT DATES AND TIMES for his brief... what's the problem here? Well, you told us, so I'll quote if that's okay.
Mon 12:06PM Whistler
"You may not have noticed - I haven't been publishing the CNN "news". While I appreciate the humor at times, I don't think the pieces meet the standards for publication in the Station News."
Unfortunately, based on the pilot post of this thread we've already established that CNN articles more or less meet publication standards. I wish to ask, sir, if you are following those standards or your own. Although this quote may answer that...
Tue 09:10PM Whistler
"...Lastly, we try to maintain a somewhat "serious" tone. While I do find the CNN posts amusing, they are a bit too lampoonish for the Station News."
You recently published an ITAN article having to do with peace in Deneb. As you also mentioned earlier in this thread, you attempt to maintain immersion. If this is true, you must be well aware of the Vendetta Online backstory; the conflict in Deneb has been going on for a very, very long time. Unless you can inform me that, if I were to visit Deneb, the Border Patrol/Skirmish sectors would be devoid of Serco vessels... I'm pretty sure this conflict is still going on. Therefore, the article is either quite lampoonish indeed (note that an LT of ITAN disputed one of the CNN claims, saying that ITAN never declared war on greyspace, a complaint that seems to have been sustained) or, beg my saying, someone may be playing favorites.
Yes, you could say that the ITAN post is propaganda, or simply a organization making a claim, and it should be allowed. I'm not disputing whether the ITAN article should be permitted because it meets standards. But the CNN post is no different; it provides a perspective on happenings, one just as subjective and biased as the ITAN article. And yet, the CNN post is dismissed while the ITAN post makes it.
I do hold respect for you, Whistler, as well as the other guides/devs/etc that help keep everything running. But please stop with this, it's outrageous; clearly, the CNN articles are quite qualified. If you're refusing to post a written work because it makes people smile and laugh, completely ignoring that under such things it is still a genuine RP work, then I would dare say that you are being quite unprofessional. Please do the right thing and allow these CNN posts into the station news.
Thank you.
-Quirc Taranis
03:11AM Quirc
Also, as a side note, until I see a personally satisfactory resolution to this issue, I'm going to pretend I'm important by personally boycotting the RP forums. Those few players that are waiting on my next installment of my story will have to wait. I refuse to submit my own work to an organization that, from my perception, is appearing selective in what it allows others to view. I'm just one player, but it's something I feel I need to do for now.
06:36AM EddyHolland
Hi Quirc
Re: "You recently published an ITAN article having to do with peace in Deneb. ...
Unless you can inform me that, if I were to visit Deneb, the Border Patrol/Skirmish sectors would be devoid of Serco vessels... I'm pretty sure this conflict is still going on...
Yes, you could say that the ITAN post is propaganda, or simply a organization making a claim, and it should be allowed. I'm not disputing whether the ITAN article should be permitted ... one just as subjective and biased as the ITAN article. "
Quirc, the itani players were able to clear serco vessels from the said sectors. During nearly the entire period of that RP event there were no serco NPCs in Deneb. 90% of the time that Serco players entered Deneb during that campaign, they did not get past B12. You had only to visit the area to confirm that. Since it's now past, you could rely on any number of veteran players who did witness it. So, [ITAN] story is based in fact, you should not dismiss it as Propaganda or being lampoonish, since it is not. It was an RP event [ITAN] organized and invited the Serco to participate in. To the extent that some Serco did participate, it was a success.
12:26PM Whistler
Does the New York Times publish the same sort of articles as the Onion? Why don't they share stories with the Enquirer? Why don't newspapers just publish whatever can be found on the internet. To say that articles like the more lampoonish CNN articles are published in "real life" is missing the point of this discussion. We're talking about the Station News within the VO universe.
The New York Times, the Onion, the Enquirer, USA Today, and all the others have differing standards. (No, I'm not equating the SN with the NY Times -it's just an example.) I'm not certain if they publish their more subjective standards - but they DO have subjective standards. It's immediately obvious when you read any of those publications.
The brief guidelines set forth by Obsidian are only part of the story. The devs have also given the guides some rather loose instructions for publication - which I have paraphrased earlier. If we were given clearer instructions, they'd have been posted. If you like, I can append her post.
"... what right do you have in judging which of these works are "worthy" of being posted? " The guides were given a general idea of what the devs desired and asked to "use your judgement". It was inevitable that one of us would find something unsuitable and somebody would question our judgement. You are certainly welcome to write incarnate and have him clarify the guidelines for us.
Let me be clear: I don't particularly CARE what gets published or who writes it. I'm doing these little odd jobs to help out the developers because I like what they're doing and I want to free them up for other things. If they say "publish all CNN articles!" then I certainly will do that without any further discussion. This is not my baby, my name is not on the News byline, and I can assure you that I have more than enough responsibility in my life so as not to become "drunk with power" here. If somebody else wants to do it, that's okay by me - but they'll still have to answer to the devs as to what gets published.
I think I've been very polite and professional about this. I remind you again that you are free to write incarnate and let him know you disagree.
12:34PM MSKanaka
Not to toss the words 'slander' and 'libel' around like tennis balls, but the CNN posts frequently fall into those categories. And I could easily see that being a requirement for a potential newspost to fall into 'not being posted' bins.
Recent example? The BS about the "Panis Virus". Leave the kid the hell alone already. He's got enough crap going on without having to deal with jokes based on words similar to his name or people making fake alts all over the place.
07:32PM Quirc
12:26PM Whistler
"Does the New York Times publish the same sort of articles as the Onion?"
No.
"Why don't they share stories with the Enquirer?"
Different kinds of media, the only similarity is that they're both available to the public.
"To say that articles like the more lampoonish CNN articles are published in "real life" is missing the point of this discussion. We're talking about the Station News within the VO universe... The New York Times, the Onion, the Enquirer, USA Today, and all the others have differing standards."
I believe you've missed the point actually. I'm simply explaining that, in actuality, the Station News is the only ingame outlet for written works. I'm sure CNN would be in stands next to store registers if that feature existed in VO. But it doesn't, so here it is. Needless to say, the NY Times as well as the Enquirer are both openly distributed. I don't see the government stopping this (yet) and, likewise, I don't see why VO's 'government' should stop CNN in this regard. Besides, I highly doubt Serco and Itani propaganda would end up on the same newspaper either. But they've both appeared there at one point or another... and they both have differing standards too.
"The brief guidelines set forth by Obsidian are only part of the story. The devs have also given the guides some rather loose instructions for publication - which I have paraphrased earlier. If we were given clearer instructions, they'd have been posted. If you like, I can append her post."
Paraphrasing is nice... can you call upon my friend, Copy/Paste, and please show us clearly what these additional instructions are? Also, appending Obsidian's post would be quite prudent. I see absolutely no reason to have 'hidden' rules and regulations; rather, I find it somewhat rude that such things are only made aware to devs and guides as opposed to the authors that take time out of THEIR lives to make VO a better place by supplying this material. No Whistler, you aren't the only one helping the devs.
"You are certainly welcome to write incarnate and have him clarify the guidelines for us."
By what right should I immediately have to run to John about everything under the sun? Devs have guides, etc. for a reason; in the end, they're only human, and they need others to help them resolve issues. If you don't feel you can resolve this on your own, then take it to him. But I'm a player, and a customer, and I'm coming to you right now. Not him.
"Let me be clear: I don't particularly CARE what gets published or who writes it. I'm doing these little odd jobs to help out the developers because I like what they're doing and I want to free them up for other things. If they say "publish all CNN articles!" then I certainly will do that without any further discussion."
I didn't know you needed special permission for every single article. Talk about bureaucracy.
"This is not my baby, my name is not on the News byline, and I can assure you that I have more than enough responsibility in my life so as not to become "drunk with power" here. If somebody else wants to do it, that's okay by me - but they'll still have to answer to the devs as to what gets published."
Let me remind you again that the CNN author, and all other authors here, are also helping the devs by providing potential game content. You aren't alone, and they're taking time out too.
I'm not asking someone else to do it; in short, I'm asking you to review the CNN articles again and explain to me specifically what is stopping them from being posted (don't repeat yourself, you've been quite generalist). You seem to enjoy using blanket terms on the articles, and you aren't giving the author the chance to discuss and appeal your decision openly with you. To me, this is far from a good thing.
12:34PM MSKanaka
"Not to toss the words 'slander' and 'libel' around like tennis balls, but the CNN posts frequently fall into those categories. And I could easily see that being a requirement for a potential newspost to fall into 'not being posted' bins..."
Not to toss them around more, but the recent ITAN article describing peace in Deneb (sorry spidey, I'm pullin it out again) could easily be described by those words from the perspective of a Serco player. However, it was permitted.
"Recent example? The BS about the "Panis Virus". Leave the kid the hell alone already."
If Panis feels this portion of the article shouldn't be included, he can appeal here or after it's posted and I'm sure it would be excluded from that point. He could also go directly to a dev or guide. I can understand why these lines would violate policy from your perspective (even though none of it really takes the form of a personal attack... note that any examples made are clean). But pointing at one portion of an article (especially the CNN news brief, in which taking one part out wouldn't do much damage to the entire work) does not justify excluding it entirely; if this portion is unfit, then it should be excluded and the author notified in case he/she wants a chance to change it to fit things more properly. (ITAN, as a side note... I wasn't personally accusing your article of lying, if you somehow managed to make sure zero Serco NPCs existed in C-10 and the wh all that week, then awesome... but unless they STILL aren't there, which I'm sure would be a problem in the eyes of the devs, that article is no longer holding true by storyline standards.)
06:36AM EddyHolland
"So, [ITAN] story is based in fact, you should not dismiss it as Propaganda or being lampoonish, since it is not. It was an RP event [ITAN] organized and invited the Serco to participate in. To the extent that some Serco did participate, it was a success."
The CNN articles are also based largely in fact, and simply taken from a unique perspective just as your article is. I could easily say "Oh, serco pilots made it to B12 by jumping in, therefore Deneb was hardly devoid", couldn't I? Likewise, I could even write a serco response to your article with that statement included, and I'm sure it'd be posted. So why isn't CNN up there?
12:26PM Whistler
"I think I've been very polite and professional about this. I remind you again that you are free to write incarnate and let him know you disagree."
I'm being redundant at this point, but I'll also remind you again that right now, you're the face of the devs. Act like it, and please don't dismiss this issue so quickly.
08:00PM Impavid
The more your respond whistler, the more your reasoning seems mudled and biased. You used ITANs in game events to justify their propaganda post. I don't dispute that, I think there should be more posts like that, and I commend Foo Fighter for keeping it going. You didn't see them complaining when pirates got involved did you? Made things even more fun. In a game sorely lacking in content, players like myself and Foo are the ones creating content for other players to consume. Just because I put a more satirical tone on things doesn't mean they didn't happen.
So, using your own justification of ITAN's most recent news item being based on actual events, here are my 2 most recent CNN posts analyzed for in game relevance and basis on actual in game events, with handy reference links:
ITAN post: Omega 0 dig declare war on grey space. I LINKED TO THE ENTIRE CHAT TRANSCRIPT. http://h1.ripway.com/keraskorner/logfortumble.txt
Panis Virus: As usual miharu, you're the only person in the game who didn't think it was funny (even panis enjoyed it). This was a satirical article about the fact that everyone seems to have a Panis alt, something he encouraged. One night most of the playerbase created one and Panis was almost the only name on 100 for near an hour. I don't have the transcript of that, but Im sure Incarnate will look it up for you. He's becoming quite adept at scanning the chat.
Sally Koshuni: News item based on LONG ongoing RP with Lebermac and references a post he wrote recently completing the story. http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/17775
Deneb Run: DUH: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/17894 )
Space Gnats: Not true, Just something funny. Meant to entertain. Certainly far more fun to read then yet another delcaration from ITAN that they "Conquered" Deneb with WH camping dev provided cap ship.
Interview with tumblemonster: Also based on ongoing RP and an in game event. I did make 4000 kills, I did announce my retirement, and CNN interviews have a history of going awry.
Six new station news posts since June. That's it. I'd think you'd jump at any interesting content. God forbid Vendetta should have some personality.
08:16PM Quirc
With the support of the author, I rest my case. Whistler, please explain to us in light of all this why you continue to exclude CNN articles.
08:49PM EddyHolland
Impavid/tumblemonster: incorrect.
"miharu, you're the only person in the game who didn't think it was funny" - incorrect. I, amongst others, did not enjoy the Panis hazing. I doubt Panis enjoyed your post item perpetuating the hazing.
Reports of tumblemonster's retirement are complete rubbish. He's been ingame since, and is ingame right now.
I have already made clear that quoting Omega 0 out of context does not constitute being able to imply official ITAN policy. You were just trying to troublemake with that item. That is the item I would have asked to be removed.
08:50PM Whistler
Okay, this is waaaaay too much drama!
I'll keep it simple: It's my call to make, within the guidelines provided to me. I stand behind my previous decisions for the reasons that I have stated already.
08:52PM EddyHolland
Quirc: ORly?
"Not to toss them around more, but the recent ITAN article ... could easily be described by those words ..." - ORly? Care to substantiate that accusation to me, ingame, right now ?
"ITAN ... I wasn't personally accusing your article of lying" - It sure sounds that way. Look, we were there, and you were not. You could ask any vet who was there. Or go pick some other fight.
08:54PM Whistler
This was never meant to be a discussion forum. I'll be removing these off-topic posts after 24 hours from now. Feel free to make a new thread in an appropriate place and move them there.
09:15PM Quirc
Very well, a new thread can be created, but unless you're hoping it simply gets buried and nobody will care (which is well possible) it doesn't instantly make this issue go away.
EDIT: I'm also ignoring ITAN from this point forward as they seem too focused on a flame war as opposed to the issue at hand. Can't teach an old dog new tricks and all that.
09:20PM Whistler
This is probably one of the slowest threads there is. Moving the issue virtually anywhere would be exhuming it.
09:20PM Whistler
This is probably one of the slowest threads there is. Moving the issue virtually anywhere would be exhuming it.
Exhuming it? It's far from dead. You've made no moves to answer me, all you've done is stonewalled and claimed dead horse.
Also, allow me to make something quite clear; although I am defending CNN as a case, I also feel I'm defending a more general issue here in my eyes, which is that some sort of hidden rules and regulations are blocking certain authors contributing entirely. If nothing else, these regulations should be placed in writing on the station news thread for all to see.
This is probably one of the slowest threads there is. Moving the issue virtually anywhere would be exhuming it.
Exhuming it? It's far from dead. You've made no moves to answer me, all you've done is stonewalled and claimed dead horse.
Also, allow me to make something quite clear; although I am defending CNN as a case, I also feel I'm defending a more general issue here in my eyes, which is that some sort of hidden rules and regulations are blocking certain authors contributing entirely. If nothing else, these regulations should be placed in writing on the station news thread for all to see.
Again unreasonable,argumentative and accusatory (and now alliterative, sorry).
You accused me of wanting to bury the issue. I was pointing out that the very location was causing it to be effectively buried already. Moving it to a more appropriate venue would be un-burying it for all to see.
You accused me of wanting to bury the issue. I was pointing out that the very location was causing it to be effectively buried already. Moving it to a more appropriate venue would be un-burying it for all to see.
So far I have been quiet on this issue, but I agree, there seems to always be explanations for things, but I see regulations and such quoted all the time that none of us see. Maybe if there was something somewhere that made it clearer we wouldn't have so many disagreements? I mean we all want what is best for the game and community, but sometimes it seems a bit arbitrary and that defeats people being able to pull together. In short, how can we play by the rules, if we dont know what they are?
We can ask Incarnate for clearer rules, but when dealing with human beings there's always going to be some point where a decision is made. We've all been through this with other things over the years. I always ask for precise guidelines, but they're not always provided for a variety of reasons.
09:41PM Whistler
"Again unreasonable,argumentative and accusatory (and now alliterative, sorry).
You accused me of wanting to bury the issue. I was pointing out that the very location was causing it to be effectively buried already. Moving it to a more appropriate venue would be un-burying it for all to see."
I stand corrected, thank you, but I'm being far from unreasonable. Argumentative, yes. Accusatory, well that one's sort of inevitable. But unreasonable? No.
09:47PM Whistler
"We can ask Incarnate for clearer rules, but when dealing with human beings there's always going to be some point where a decision is made. We've all been through this with other things over the years. I always ask for precise guidelines, but they're not always provided for a variety of reasons."
I also wish to know your continued reasoning as to why the CNN articles are not being published. Feel free to bring Incarnate into this if you wish. So far, you haven't said or done anything to clear the core issues up.
"Again unreasonable,argumentative and accusatory (and now alliterative, sorry).
You accused me of wanting to bury the issue. I was pointing out that the very location was causing it to be effectively buried already. Moving it to a more appropriate venue would be un-burying it for all to see."
I stand corrected, thank you, but I'm being far from unreasonable. Argumentative, yes. Accusatory, well that one's sort of inevitable. But unreasonable? No.
09:47PM Whistler
"We can ask Incarnate for clearer rules, but when dealing with human beings there's always going to be some point where a decision is made. We've all been through this with other things over the years. I always ask for precise guidelines, but they're not always provided for a variety of reasons."
I also wish to know your continued reasoning as to why the CNN articles are not being published. Feel free to bring Incarnate into this if you wish. So far, you haven't said or done anything to clear the core issues up.
Also, Whistler, I was told you edited this in later, good having friends..
09:20PM Whistler
"I expect that it will get a LOT more attention, and that most people will tell you that you're being unreasonable."
I expected that someone of your stature wouldn't want to start a flame war. Cut with the insults and settle this, please. If I'm truly unreasonable for challenging a lack of free speech, then fine. Don't throw any of that around until you, at the very least, have actually addressed this as opposed to your actions to date.
09:20PM Whistler
"I expect that it will get a LOT more attention, and that most people will tell you that you're being unreasonable."
I expected that someone of your stature wouldn't want to start a flame war. Cut with the insults and settle this, please. If I'm truly unreasonable for challenging a lack of free speech, then fine. Don't throw any of that around until you, at the very least, have actually addressed this as opposed to your actions to date.
The Guides have the authority to make judgment calls. The world is not a clear-cut black&white place.
It sometimes seems like a thankless task.
I support the Guides in their decision.
It sometimes seems like a thankless task.
I support the Guides in their decision.
10:01PM EddyHolland
The Guides have the authority to make judgment calls. The world is not a clear-cut black&white place.
It sometimes seems like a thankless task.
I support the Guides in their decision.
I'm well aware of their role, and how many times people complain. I've also lived long enough to know that black-white aint the gig.
I however do not support this in any way, hence the protest thread. I refuse to support this decision until I see adequate cause for it, which I don't. Instead, I see a guide spending more time lashing out than giving calm, collected reasoning. If I see otherwise to my satisfaction, and understand more in-depth as to why this decision was made, I'll digress.
The Guides have the authority to make judgment calls. The world is not a clear-cut black&white place.
It sometimes seems like a thankless task.
I support the Guides in their decision.
I'm well aware of their role, and how many times people complain. I've also lived long enough to know that black-white aint the gig.
I however do not support this in any way, hence the protest thread. I refuse to support this decision until I see adequate cause for it, which I don't. Instead, I see a guide spending more time lashing out than giving calm, collected reasoning. If I see otherwise to my satisfaction, and understand more in-depth as to why this decision was made, I'll digress.
Quirc, with the last two posts I begin to doubt that this is even a serious topic. What flamewar? What insults? What lashing out?
(Edited to reflect that I was, in fact, referring to 2 posts)
(Edited to reflect that I was, in fact, referring to 2 posts)
10:06PM Whistler
Quirc, with that last post I begin to doubt that this is even a serious topic. What flamewar? What insults? What lashing out?
In short, you refuse to give much insight into your decisions, remaining quite vague and generalist. You tell us about "other" guidelines and never display them in writing. You call me names instead of presenting your side of the issue.
Please stop, or if you feel you cannot deal with this call Incarnate to the table. You can refer to your own words in the log I've posted as the pilot of the thread if you're confused.
Quirc, with that last post I begin to doubt that this is even a serious topic. What flamewar? What insults? What lashing out?
In short, you refuse to give much insight into your decisions, remaining quite vague and generalist. You tell us about "other" guidelines and never display them in writing. You call me names instead of presenting your side of the issue.
Please stop, or if you feel you cannot deal with this call Incarnate to the table. You can refer to your own words in the log I've posted as the pilot of the thread if you're confused.
Quirc, I can tell from your insistant postings that you are frustated with the decision to not post the CNN blurb. However, regardless of how you feel about the decision to post or not post in the station news area, Incarnate has given the guides the responsibility to use our best judgment regarding many situations in-game and in the forum. The guides work as a team to decide what actions are the closest match to Incarnate’s wishes as he has expressed to us (WWID). I have reviewed the situation and I feel that I would have reached the same decision as Whistler had I gotten to the thread first.
The posting guidelines are listed at the beginning of the Station News thread and I think they are clear enough.
The posting guidelines are listed at the beginning of the Station News thread and I think they are clear enough.
Sarahanne:
Thank you for replying.
My confusion on this point is more that this reasoning wasn't given when making the decision on the CNN articles.
Was this the actual reasoning behind Whistler's words?
EDIT: In addition to this, can you please clarify why the CNN article does not meet requirements? Maybe I'm just a nubbin here.
Thank you for replying.
My confusion on this point is more that this reasoning wasn't given when making the decision on the CNN articles.
Was this the actual reasoning behind Whistler's words?
EDIT: In addition to this, can you please clarify why the CNN article does not meet requirements? Maybe I'm just a nubbin here.
So, basically you're looking for some type of rejection letter?
Dear Author,
We're sorry, but we’ll have to pass on your newspost because does not meet our publication guidelines. In the future, we’d love to see some more of your writing if it directly related to an active guild project or a future live RP event. Thank you so much for thinking of us.
Warmest regards,
The Guides.
Dear Author,
We're sorry, but we’ll have to pass on your newspost because does not meet our publication guidelines. In the future, we’d love to see some more of your writing if it directly related to an active guild project or a future live RP event. Thank you so much for thinking of us.
Warmest regards,
The Guides.
XD
Well I'm not the author of CNN, but that's pretty funny.
I'm satisfied with it, though as a retreating action I would like to request that the articles are given extra consideration, as they do refer to RP events.
Well I'm not the author of CNN, but that's pretty funny.
I'm satisfied with it, though as a retreating action I would like to request that the articles are given extra consideration, as they do refer to RP events.
I'm glad to see the guides take the issue seriously. Despite Quirc zealous arguements, he's right. Based on Whistler's own arugments, CNN should be posted. He made a judgement I accept, but I don't think it was unbiased.
Let the thread die.
Let the thread die.
I posted this to the other thread, as I was unaware that there was a cross-posting project:
Quite dramatic. For the record: I fully support Whistler's actions and I see that he is implementing the brief guidelines I defined for him. In this case, I asked him (basically) to keep the in-game news to items which tend to be more serious in tone. Something you would see from AP, not The Onion.
I'm a big fan of user-created content, and we try to support it as much as possible. But, we also have our own, specific, vision for how things will be, and content that appears in the game will always be limited to that which we believe is sufficiently aligned with our vision. The distinction of "sufficiently aligned", in this case, is left to Whistler, with some general guidelines. There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to guideline interpretation, and Whistler has accurately stated that he is doing his best to execute what I asked of him. If you think those guidelines should change, then you should take it up with me.
Quite dramatic. For the record: I fully support Whistler's actions and I see that he is implementing the brief guidelines I defined for him. In this case, I asked him (basically) to keep the in-game news to items which tend to be more serious in tone. Something you would see from AP, not The Onion.
I'm a big fan of user-created content, and we try to support it as much as possible. But, we also have our own, specific, vision for how things will be, and content that appears in the game will always be limited to that which we believe is sufficiently aligned with our vision. The distinction of "sufficiently aligned", in this case, is left to Whistler, with some general guidelines. There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to guideline interpretation, and Whistler has accurately stated that he is doing his best to execute what I asked of him. If you think those guidelines should change, then you should take it up with me.
I do firmly believe that an exception should be made for the CNN articles, though perfectly adequate reasoning has been given in terms of the current regulations.
Incarnate, thank you for clarifying this further, but my last request stands; I feel that the CNN articles should be considered as a special case, as they provide positive and humourous content for other players to read.
Whether my request is accepted or denied, I'm satisfied at this point. Thanks again.
Incarnate, thank you for clarifying this further, but my last request stands; I feel that the CNN articles should be considered as a special case, as they provide positive and humourous content for other players to read.
Whether my request is accepted or denied, I'm satisfied at this point. Thanks again.
Maybe if CNN was renamed CLM News Network and became more wry it would be fit to print?
To follow-up on the obvious point.. if you think those guidelines need to be more specifically defined, let me know about that too.
In terms of historical reasons on why there haven't been many specific guidelines to date:
I had no intention of the in-game news becoming quite so player-driven as it has. The area was created more to tie in with a number of gameplay elements that have not yet reached fruition. When player contributions became more desired, and common, I tried to give some general "ballpark" rules, and moved on.
NOTE: this isn't to say I don't support the player contributions, more that the utilization was not really planned for. Use cases always evolve.
In terms of historical reasons on why there haven't been many specific guidelines to date:
I had no intention of the in-game news becoming quite so player-driven as it has. The area was created more to tie in with a number of gameplay elements that have not yet reached fruition. When player contributions became more desired, and common, I tried to give some general "ballpark" rules, and moved on.
NOTE: this isn't to say I don't support the player contributions, more that the utilization was not really planned for. Use cases always evolve.