I'm going to embarass myself a bit here, ionize the image of veteran seniority for any new players, so to speak, and ask a newbie question that has been floating around in my head ever since I first started playing VO two years ago.

While I know that spin torque affects how quickly a ship rotates around it's own front axis (that alone hasn't kept me confounded for two years, thank the UIT trading saints for lack of gods), is it spin torque or thrust that affects how quickly a ship TURNS?

(That is, moves its nose to follow the focus of the mouse, old keyboard-and-mouse traditionalist that I am.)

I would have assumed spin torque would cover this (would be a pretty meaningless ship stat otherwise, if it just affected spinning the ship along the front axis), but on the other hand, turning a ship is done through thrusters, so perhaps things are not as easy as I hope they aren't.

Actually the spin torque divided by the spin damping determines the maximum angular rotation speed. I don't know whether we even publish the spin damping for the ships in the stats.

Spin torque affects how fast it changes direction; but in general, more spin torque means it syncs with your mouse faster.

Hmm, then spin torque was just as important as I first assumed. Is the actual turning speed of the ship a result of spin torque versus mass (divided by damping, which is not published, by the way), then, or just spin torque?

(I would have prefered to have it renamed to 'rotational thrust', 'turning thrusters', or something along those lines, since 'spin torque' makes me think of a ship spinning drill style, but perhaps the term is clearly understandable to most.)

Thanks, a1k0n. See, Ion, that wasn't so hard, was it? No one's made fun of you yet. Two years, sheesh...

EDIT: Torque versus mass (and then some damping) it must be, I realized after looking at some ship stats. Some of the real heavies have huge spin torque numbers, but turn slower than a behemoth in a launch bay... (I just love contextual humour).

EDIT: Err, didn't mean to write this much when I started... oh well. Perhaps the forum gods will be nice and make this its own thread.

Here's my question though, from all of the experience in testing the ships when their stats were changed, spin torque seems to have a very strange relationship with the way the ship actually turns.

(BTW, would it be possible to have, in the Buy Ship info, a list of ALL stats and their relevant names? it would really up the depth in choosing a ship)

Okay, so realistic translational physics make for an unplayable game, but realistic rotational physics might actually add something neat.

Strictly speaking, in a realistic interpretation, if you're applying a constant spin torque, you'll just keep rotationg faster and faster (up until the point where the ship structure is unable to hold the centripetal force necessary) Spin Torque would NOT define the max rotational velocity.

So here's a little basic math for structural integrity. (approximating the ship's mass as uniform across the length of the ship), working out the necessary centripetal acceleration for each differential of mass (dm)

we have that df= r*(w^2)*dm

where w is the angular velocity and r is the radius from the center. This is the required condition for solid body rotation. However, the point which will be carrying the most load is the center point.

So integrate from 0 to R (where R is half the length of the ship) then multiply by 2.

so we get that the force necessary to sustain a spin of angular velocity w is 0.5MRw^2 (where M is the total mass of the ship). Now, we take this force divide it by the cross-sectional area of the ship at the center. And we end up WITH!!!!

a tensile strength.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength

This means it would be nice to come up with a list of materials the ships are made out of (Xithricite, heliocene, whatever) along with their tensile strengths, in order to determine what these max velocities are.

Now, this may seem like a lot work to end up with exactly what we have now. But let me go into more detail.

I think an interesting little side project, to be implemented along with crafting in the time ahead, might be the generation of a database of the various minerals in the VO universe AKA specific heats, Bulk Modulus, melting/freezing points, superconducting temperature, tensile strengths

etc...

These might not be used at all, but the idea is that they're there if you ever want consistency. And since these are minerals of your creation, they can have whatever features you like. However, it makes crafting a very interesting process, you open up the full range of materials to the crafter.

Also, The side effects of such a consistent system balance themselves. You can't make a Skyprom out of silicate, because not only will it break under a spin too easily, but it also won't absorb any damage (you could set this to be a combination of melting point, bulk modulus, etc...). Then you give people the freedom to create as they will. The only limiting factor is the degree that the players have control over their parts.

For example, suppose your beginning crafting model just involves 2 things, a chassis and armor plating.

(to start, The engine comes with the chassis)

Now, there are 12 types of Chassis, and 3 different manufacturers of armor plating (say, itani, serco and UIT)

Just by implementing this Database, you suddenly give people a range of

12 * 3 * N^2 possible combinations. Where N is the number of materials. Add another layer of depth to the ship? Now its N^3

You can create rare materials, with unknown properties that players just aren't going to find often enough to get exact values of all their parameters. Now your depth increases a million fold.

And the best part is, the only thing you balance are the materials.

Wow. Who'd have thought Shapenaji would be into crafting?

We should run some tests for most responsive ship. (i.e. which ship can you pull your nose around in fastest?)

Also create a competition between the design minded. WHo's the best engineer in VO?

Turn rate is a function of spin torque, moment of inertia and mass, so it depends on more than just the mass and torque of the ship - the shape plays into it as well (one of the reasons the prom turn rate sucks).

I am curious however if the "spin torque' is in fact a measure of torque, or a simple measure of spin force at a particular distance from the moment of rotation (i.e., does it change from ship to ship based on engine placement, etc.)

On another note, the world has no torque or thrust, hence it is in equilibrium (although not static, since it has an initial spin), so you can't compare it to the ships in VO in any fashion (in reality, newtonian physics determine that the spin torque affects the rotational acceleration, rather than speed, as there is no limit to rotational speed in a vacuum, other than defined by the balance of centripetal and centrifugal forces)

Maximum turn rate has absolutely nothing to do with mass or inertia. It has everything to do with the damping factor, as I said above. The damping is applied in an admittedly magical fashion.

The mass & moment of inertia simply affect how fast you can get it to change which way it's turning; like you said, rotational acceleration. τ = Iα.

Ships have a magical torque generator at the center of mass; it could be a really heavy flywheel or something. Or a small but really fast one. There are no side-thrusters generating spin forces.

I thought it was all gravimetric quantum sub-torque inertial psuedo-flywheels?

(Seriously, it would be fun to write a manual for VO like the Star Trek Technical Manual. I admit to having a copy...)

Cunjo, I am interested in VO physics, not newtonian. I actually know how this works (would work) in real life, in spite of just having studied physics at college level (NOT because of it ;-) ). I am sorry if my unparadigmal thread title offended the science nerd that rests dormant beneath every VO player's skin ;-)

Ah, a1k0n, so no mass included in the actual speed at which the ship turns, except for the acceleration to reach that turn speed, then. But, on the subject of the magical torque generator: what is the in-cannon technical explanation for turning?

And, furthermore, if the mass & inertia is only related to rotational acceleration, why does hulks like centaurs, with a spin torque of 14 Nm, turn to slowly? Is the mass & inertia so large that you usually never reach max turn speed with those beasts? Is the acceleration a very big component of actual, practical turning rate for all ships? And, if so, why is the dampened maximum turn rate (the spin torque) published, if it matters less in a fight than the rotational acceleration, which is not published?

And, finally, is there an easy way to look at a ship's stats and figure out the actual, practical turning speed? For T = Ia, I would need to know the angular acceleration a, right, and that is not published. If indeed acceleration plays such a big part. If, indeed, I've understood this right ;-)

Sorry for all the question. Looking to understand this once and for all ;-) Leber is right. Would it ruin all the magic of the game if you released the tech notes behind the ship handling part of the physics engine to us?

Shape, Ryzom, a rather peculiar and subcultural MMORPG, features a crafting system a bit, if only a tad, related to your ideas. Same idea that quality and type of materials will yield the same kind of product in the end, but very varying in quality, stats, possible usage, etc. This makes crafting an, as you said, process of almost unlimited variation. Ryzoms system is far less physically advanced, though, and only yield superficial or simple stats-based differencies, but it is still a wonderful addition to the game. Crafting in VO would benefit much from ideas like yours here, methinks.

Anyways, I will remember this thread, and should you have drowned this suggestion in old-earth tequila by the time crafting sneaks into VO, I will dig this up from beneath the piles of digital waste.

..seems a lot of these numbers would have less to do with the vessel's physical structure, and more to do with safety overrides and firmware packages

.....which begs the question, when will we be able to buy "unlocked" or "hacked firmware" ships from Corvus? maybe a greyspace mission that would involve changing stats on the ship you're flying?? (I know, I know... not in the engine, it'd take months of effort, yada... >:C )

Yeah, TPG is screwing us again, like when they turned the max speeds down from 250 and such.

Damn Corporations trying to squeeze every credit...

Ion, I seem to have confused you. The maximum turn rate = spin torque (published) / damping rate (not published). Damping rate is different for each ship, so ships with lots of torque which nevertheless have a slow maximum turn speed have more damping. The damping is, in fact, determined by how fast of a maximum angular velocity we want on that ship, and those numbers are roughly the same across each ship class.

You always confuse me, a1k0n. But this time, I think it was Cunjos comment that did the confusing trick.

Ok, NOW I see. So the acceleration (and in that, the mass) has nothing to with it, after all. It's all in the damping.

Then, my last question will be: is there truly a point to publishing the spin torque, if it really does not tell much about a ship's angular velocity? (When looking at light fighters, there does indeed seem to be some consistency, but with the larger ships, as you said, the spin torque is high, but the damping keeps them slow)

(Not that it's necessary that everything is published. We can always do tests ourselves, as Leber said, and, after all, this is something you feel as soon as you leave the launch bay in a new ship, so it is not that big a deal...)

Shutting up now, finally satisfied. Thanks.

It's like a ship's mass has nothing to do with its top speed, either...

I'd be in favor of a more transparent and complete ship statistics list, as well, since tests have already been conducted on stuff like turning rate and the like, and thise numbers were, while interesting and useful, not available in-game, where I feel that they belong.

As for Shape's materials science suggestion, I'd like to see that to happen, too.

id like if one didnt have to scroll when looking at the ship stats.... sigh