Forums » General
First of all, I try very hard to remain calm and objective within these forums (and within the game for that matter). But I've got to break that rule here.
If you can't read posts thoroughly and think about them before replying, you're just going to make an ass out of yourself. You are being overly defensive just because people don't agree with you, and the funny thing is, to some extent we all agree; you just don't realize it.
"Sorry pal, bottom line: Some ships ARE superior to other ships. Take the Valkyrie."
First of all, my name is not pal. Secondly, the issue isn't that the valk shouldn't be a superior fighter. The point is that it shouldn't be ***so superior that it can swat aside any other ship in the game***. Eventually, there will be gizmos and configurability and such.. these things will allow balanced play amongst specialized ships. I am 100% in favor of that. But right now all we have is combat and **very** limited gameplay options, and valks present an unfair advantage over other ships in this role. Again, the key word is UNFAIR advantage. Specialization that promotes diverse gameplay and interesting gameplay is an amazing thing. On that, I think , we all agree. However, overspecialization, which creates elitism and "uber-ships", is bad for both gameplay and the game community and is a very bad thing. So.. should all ships be made 100% the same? No. Should all ships be made with specific pros and cons, all of which balance out in the end? Yes.
Oh.. and "I recall correctly, TIE-fighters were making strafing runs on the Millennium Falcon. Yes?"
Well, if you don't realize that the falcon was one on the fastest ships in the galaxy, go re-watch the movies.
If you can't read posts thoroughly and think about them before replying, you're just going to make an ass out of yourself. You are being overly defensive just because people don't agree with you, and the funny thing is, to some extent we all agree; you just don't realize it.
"Sorry pal, bottom line: Some ships ARE superior to other ships. Take the Valkyrie."
First of all, my name is not pal. Secondly, the issue isn't that the valk shouldn't be a superior fighter. The point is that it shouldn't be ***so superior that it can swat aside any other ship in the game***. Eventually, there will be gizmos and configurability and such.. these things will allow balanced play amongst specialized ships. I am 100% in favor of that. But right now all we have is combat and **very** limited gameplay options, and valks present an unfair advantage over other ships in this role. Again, the key word is UNFAIR advantage. Specialization that promotes diverse gameplay and interesting gameplay is an amazing thing. On that, I think , we all agree. However, overspecialization, which creates elitism and "uber-ships", is bad for both gameplay and the game community and is a very bad thing. So.. should all ships be made 100% the same? No. Should all ships be made with specific pros and cons, all of which balance out in the end? Yes.
Oh.. and "I recall correctly, TIE-fighters were making strafing runs on the Millennium Falcon. Yes?"
Well, if you don't realize that the falcon was one on the fastest ships in the galaxy, go re-watch the movies.
Renegade: That would be a perfectly fine solution were it not for what I continually point out, that each ship model represents a relatively large ammount of work and is the single element most likely to be scrutinized as representative of the quality of the graphics and artwork in the final game.
There are only going to be a limited number of ships in the game. Ideally, sure it would be great to have litterally dozens of each class of ship in varying quality. Sure, it would be fine for each nation to have a half-dozen or so top quality ships balanced against the top quality ships of the other teams. But that isn't doable, nor is it interesting for each nation to have just one ship and be pinned down into a simple sterotype. If we are only going to have 20 or 30 or 40 ship models, I don't see a point in wasting the effort on large numbers of them on sub-par designs that will almost never be used. It is better to put that work into some other content area of the game and just have 6 or 10 balanced ship models. Since the number of ship models are going to be highly limited, it is FAR FAR better to have the vast majority of them be 'playable' and balanced against each other. If we want to introduce differences in quality, it is FAR FAR better to do so not by having substandard ships but by offering low quality gizmos like batteries, engines, weapons, and what not because each weapon group represents less work than a ship does. If we must have superiority and inferiority, why can't we do it via having the 3.2 equivalent of red lasers and red ions (red gravitons? red tachyons) where all that is needed to have inferior ships is a changed color field in the graphics and a new line in some weapons database table?
There are only going to be a limited number of ships in the game. Ideally, sure it would be great to have litterally dozens of each class of ship in varying quality. Sure, it would be fine for each nation to have a half-dozen or so top quality ships balanced against the top quality ships of the other teams. But that isn't doable, nor is it interesting for each nation to have just one ship and be pinned down into a simple sterotype. If we are only going to have 20 or 30 or 40 ship models, I don't see a point in wasting the effort on large numbers of them on sub-par designs that will almost never be used. It is better to put that work into some other content area of the game and just have 6 or 10 balanced ship models. Since the number of ship models are going to be highly limited, it is FAR FAR better to have the vast majority of them be 'playable' and balanced against each other. If we want to introduce differences in quality, it is FAR FAR better to do so not by having substandard ships but by offering low quality gizmos like batteries, engines, weapons, and what not because each weapon group represents less work than a ship does. If we must have superiority and inferiority, why can't we do it via having the 3.2 equivalent of red lasers and red ions (red gravitons? red tachyons) where all that is needed to have inferior ships is a changed color field in the graphics and a new line in some weapons database table?
What I meant was this:
like in 3.2.0 every race got his own special. It fitted the background story of every race nicely.
This 1 ship would replace for THAT nation it's respective best fighter. So if people normally used hornets, then they should only use valks now. That's the advantage of being an itani.
advantage of being a nautral is : getting the marauder
advantage of being Serco is: getting the prom.
These should be balanced against each others but should be masters against their respective standard ware of other nations.
So 1 prom should be able to beat 1 ragnarok with no problem, but should have problems with a marauder or a valk.
Ever played AoE2 ? Every nation had his own special troops, for instance the teutons had a very slow but very strong close combat fighter. If you attacked it with a standard combat fighter, then you would get your ass creamed, but if you used archers "so long distance" then you would win it with no possibility.
That was what I meant with balance the other ships according to this. For instance, a warthog should be able to take out a valk very easilly, but a valk should have no problems with a common fighter like a hornet.
Like always every ship has it niche in gameplay. Just try to find it before even shooting down the thought about special ships.
The idea was succesfull in AoE2 , in CIV3, in ... so tons of games, so it can at least be implemented in here
cheers
like in 3.2.0 every race got his own special. It fitted the background story of every race nicely.
This 1 ship would replace for THAT nation it's respective best fighter. So if people normally used hornets, then they should only use valks now. That's the advantage of being an itani.
advantage of being a nautral is : getting the marauder
advantage of being Serco is: getting the prom.
These should be balanced against each others but should be masters against their respective standard ware of other nations.
So 1 prom should be able to beat 1 ragnarok with no problem, but should have problems with a marauder or a valk.
Ever played AoE2 ? Every nation had his own special troops, for instance the teutons had a very slow but very strong close combat fighter. If you attacked it with a standard combat fighter, then you would get your ass creamed, but if you used archers "so long distance" then you would win it with no possibility.
That was what I meant with balance the other ships according to this. For instance, a warthog should be able to take out a valk very easilly, but a valk should have no problems with a common fighter like a hornet.
Like always every ship has it niche in gameplay. Just try to find it before even shooting down the thought about special ships.
The idea was succesfull in AoE2 , in CIV3, in ... so tons of games, so it can at least be implemented in here
cheers
/me agrees with Celebrim, pretty violently, too.
Slappy, the Falcon WAS a fast ship, however, did you not remember the TIE fighters making strafing runs on it?
Personally, I like the Centurion. It is very fast, very (!) small, and extremely hard to hit. If you stick a tachyon (or a gravitron, for ambushes) on it, in the hands of a skilled pilot, it's pretty deadly. Have 2 or 3 pilots in one and they could easily take down a prom. ok, enough on this topic, let's remember that the devs have stated that they will be reworking ALL the ships after E3 and major balancing issues will be dealt with.
Slappy, the Falcon WAS a fast ship, however, did you not remember the TIE fighters making strafing runs on it?
Personally, I like the Centurion. It is very fast, very (!) small, and extremely hard to hit. If you stick a tachyon (or a gravitron, for ambushes) on it, in the hands of a skilled pilot, it's pretty deadly. Have 2 or 3 pilots in one and they could easily take down a prom. ok, enough on this topic, let's remember that the devs have stated that they will be reworking ALL the ships after E3 and major balancing issues will be dealt with.
"enough on this topic"
...agreed.
"the Falcon WAS a fast ship, however"...
...Only when the warp generators were offline (which seemed to be most of the time). :-)
...agreed.
"the Falcon WAS a fast ship, however"...
...Only when the warp generators were offline (which seemed to be most of the time). :-)
Most?
All of the time :P
Hey, quit grinning and hand me that hydrospanner!
All of the time :P
Hey, quit grinning and hand me that hydrospanner!
Regarding what Renegade said:
I think it would be fine if the black market was removed as long as there were close alternatives available to other nations to fit the same role.
The Itani can have the best fighter as long as there's a fighter or fighters available to the Serco and NT that is/are say, 95% as good. The way it is now with two identical pilots a Valk could probably take out a Vulture with 50-80% life remaining.
Asp
I think it would be fine if the black market was removed as long as there were close alternatives available to other nations to fit the same role.
The Itani can have the best fighter as long as there's a fighter or fighters available to the Serco and NT that is/are say, 95% as good. The way it is now with two identical pilots a Valk could probably take out a Vulture with 50-80% life remaining.
Asp
We might see the Centurion get a second small slot, the Vulture a third, the light bomber a speed/acceleration/maneuverability boost, and the Prom lose a speed/acceleration/maneuverability point.
That way a vulture would be harder to take on, the Centurion more effective, and the light bomber a good alternative to Itani/Neutral for countering a Prometheus, and the Prom wouldn't be so "uber-ship"-ish.
To possibly tone down on rocket ramming, rockets' velocity could be upped. After all, why do people wait until the last moment to launch rockets? Because they're hard to aim at a distance >50m.
I was jumped by a light bomber in my Prom last night, and was surprised by how much damage I took. Of course he died, but if you outfit that light bomber with gats and 2 rockets, or better yet, have 2 or 3 of them with L-port homers and tachs, they really could effectively deal with a Prom.
That way a vulture would be harder to take on, the Centurion more effective, and the light bomber a good alternative to Itani/Neutral for countering a Prometheus, and the Prom wouldn't be so "uber-ship"-ish.
To possibly tone down on rocket ramming, rockets' velocity could be upped. After all, why do people wait until the last moment to launch rockets? Because they're hard to aim at a distance >50m.
I was jumped by a light bomber in my Prom last night, and was surprised by how much damage I took. Of course he died, but if you outfit that light bomber with gats and 2 rockets, or better yet, have 2 or 3 of them with L-port homers and tachs, they really could effectively deal with a Prom.
"We might see the Centurion get a second small slot, the Vulture a third, the light bomber a speed/acceleration/maneuverability boost, and the Prom lose a speed/acceleration/maneuverability point."
I'd be all for that. :)
"To possibly tone down on rocket ramming, rockets' velocity could be upped. After all, why do people wait until the last moment to launch rockets? Because they're hard to aim at a distance >50m."
I hit a running Marauder from 1km with a pair of rockets last night. Why do people wait until the last moment to launch rockets? I'd guess because they aren't that experienced and at least with a point blank shot with a rocket you are going to hit your target from time to time. Sunflares are already deadly. Why make them more deadly (and _more_ popular). The Jackhammers and Screamers are going to be utterly lethal once the speed bug is fixed (maybe within the next few days). At the top level of the game, the winner in a fight is being decided by the one that can make the most 'clean' rocket hits where the firing vessels doesn't take any splash damage. Versus a newish player, I can dismantle an opponent with rockets and take no or almost no splash damage. If you are going to up the velocity, you are going to have to reduce accuracy of the rocket by reducing its prox radius otherwise the weapon is going to be too good.
"I was jumped by a light bomber in my Prom last night, and was surprised by how much damage I took."
If you mean the Wraith, it has the same weapons load as the Prom but its less manueverable AND has much less than half the hull points (39% actually). At the very least, they should exchange manueverability. Actually, its upsurd for the Prom to be even as agile as a Wraith is now and still keep all those h.p.
I'd be all for that. :)
"To possibly tone down on rocket ramming, rockets' velocity could be upped. After all, why do people wait until the last moment to launch rockets? Because they're hard to aim at a distance >50m."
I hit a running Marauder from 1km with a pair of rockets last night. Why do people wait until the last moment to launch rockets? I'd guess because they aren't that experienced and at least with a point blank shot with a rocket you are going to hit your target from time to time. Sunflares are already deadly. Why make them more deadly (and _more_ popular). The Jackhammers and Screamers are going to be utterly lethal once the speed bug is fixed (maybe within the next few days). At the top level of the game, the winner in a fight is being decided by the one that can make the most 'clean' rocket hits where the firing vessels doesn't take any splash damage. Versus a newish player, I can dismantle an opponent with rockets and take no or almost no splash damage. If you are going to up the velocity, you are going to have to reduce accuracy of the rocket by reducing its prox radius otherwise the weapon is going to be too good.
"I was jumped by a light bomber in my Prom last night, and was surprised by how much damage I took."
If you mean the Wraith, it has the same weapons load as the Prom but its less manueverable AND has much less than half the hull points (39% actually). At the very least, they should exchange manueverability. Actually, its upsurd for the Prom to be even as agile as a Wraith is now and still keep all those h.p.
I'll have to concede the rocket point, I'd have to duel you sometime, because every player that I have ever fought with rockets uses the ramming technique. I wasn't aware of a screamer/jackhammer fix. I use screamers +2 flares; good for a prom, it will take down most anything in 2 vollies. If someone's boosting at you, you can pull off a prom kill without taking any damage and only be out 3 screamers and 8 flares.
The Wraith has excellent potential if tweaked a bit.
The Wraith has excellent potential if tweaked a bit.
Currently, because of a bug in the rocket code, Screamers and Jackhammers go base 55 m/s - the same speed as Sunflares. After the next update, they will go their real speeds. I expect to see alot of Advanced Gatlings replaced by Jackhammers or Screamers in the next week to two weeks.
Will they damage the cap ship after the update? Because their current damage radius is too low to hit the center of the Frigate and therefore does 0 damage. It's a shame, because the most powerful homer does as much damage as a torp per load (12 homers vs 4 torps, the homers do 1/3 the damage per rocket) and is much faster...
I'm calling BS on you hitting with rockets from that distance, Celebrim.
In my experience, flares don't even TRAVEL that far.
In my experience, flares don't even TRAVEL that far.
X (Why 'luvr'? I like the Nahuatlan bit, though): The difference between rockets and missiles in the game is their velocities. Missiles have an absolute velocity (Geminis always travel 80 m/s, absolutely), while rockets have a relative velocity (Sunflares travel 55 m/s relative to the launching ship at the time of launch).
What does that mean? Let's consider my ideal attack run.
I am at 1 km or more out, armed with my single tachyon, twin Sunflares, against a target armed with a single tachyon and twin Geminis. I boost madly straight towards him, and not being an expert pilot, he just boosts madly at me too. At 600-odd meters, we are both at maximum velocity, 200 m/s. I fire my Sunflares, he fires his Geminis, and as soon as I start firing, I mash my ship's brakes to avoid my own blasts (cuts it pretty close).
His Geminis travel at 80 m/s. He's fired them at 600 meters out, and before they're 300 meters away, I've already turned around and leisurely thrust away at 65 m/s. They're only gaining 15 m/s on me, which means they'll take 20 seconds just to get to me.
My Sunflares travel 55 m/s relative to me--and I was travelling at 200 m/s towards him, and he 200 m/s towards me--making my shots travel at an absolute velocity of 455 m/s! This means that when I've fired at 600 meters, my first shots will slam home in about a second and a quarter, which means I could have kept boosting if I fired only one salvo, and not get hit. (It takes ~1.1 seconds for Sunflares to clear you without velocity changes.)
So, Celebrim's 1 km hit is quite easily possible. Assuming the same situation (both flying at 200 m/s towards each other), his rockets would take just under 2.2 seconds to hit their target. His target was asleep at the wheel or didn't recognize the rocket attack until it was too late.
What does that mean? Let's consider my ideal attack run.
I am at 1 km or more out, armed with my single tachyon, twin Sunflares, against a target armed with a single tachyon and twin Geminis. I boost madly straight towards him, and not being an expert pilot, he just boosts madly at me too. At 600-odd meters, we are both at maximum velocity, 200 m/s. I fire my Sunflares, he fires his Geminis, and as soon as I start firing, I mash my ship's brakes to avoid my own blasts (cuts it pretty close).
His Geminis travel at 80 m/s. He's fired them at 600 meters out, and before they're 300 meters away, I've already turned around and leisurely thrust away at 65 m/s. They're only gaining 15 m/s on me, which means they'll take 20 seconds just to get to me.
My Sunflares travel 55 m/s relative to me--and I was travelling at 200 m/s towards him, and he 200 m/s towards me--making my shots travel at an absolute velocity of 455 m/s! This means that when I've fired at 600 meters, my first shots will slam home in about a second and a quarter, which means I could have kept boosting if I fired only one salvo, and not get hit. (It takes ~1.1 seconds for Sunflares to clear you without velocity changes.)
So, Celebrim's 1 km hit is quite easily possible. Assuming the same situation (both flying at 200 m/s towards each other), his rockets would take just under 2.2 seconds to hit their target. His target was asleep at the wheel or didn't recognize the rocket attack until it was too late.
"I'm calling BS on you hitting with rockets from that distance, Celebrim."
They do if you fire while at full turbo. At that point they have a Velocity of ~250 m/s. Remember I said I took my shot at a running Marauder? I didn't aim at the Marauder. I aimed at the station door. The Marauder was going full boost - it braked at the station door to keep from issuing. That gave my rockets the brief moment they needed to catch up.
Boom.
They do if you fire while at full turbo. At that point they have a Velocity of ~250 m/s. Remember I said I took my shot at a running Marauder? I didn't aim at the Marauder. I aimed at the station door. The Marauder was going full boost - it braked at the station door to keep from issuing. That gave my rockets the brief moment they needed to catch up.
Boom.
guys... rockets can be used to hit targets up to 2000m with ease. Razer Edge felt my rocekts as he retreated from battle in a prom. With careful aim, a person can drop someone 2000m away. I regularly make kills from 1000 to 1500m away.
Remember: Rocekts can be pushed faster than any fleeing ship. There are ways to hide your rockets from radar as well. it's not impossible to nail people from far away.
Remember: Rocekts can be pushed faster than any fleeing ship. There are ways to hide your rockets from radar as well. it's not impossible to nail people from far away.