One thing that I'm discovering as I get into more and more PvP is tha botting is next to useless as practice. It's an unfortunate irnoy that you need to bot to get the levels needed to use the weapons that will make you successful at PvP... BUT, the patterns used by the bots bear no resemblence whatsoever to those used by a human pilot.

For example, against a bot, regardless of the enemy craft, simply holding down the left strafe button while in FA mode generally causes them to miss, while giving you time to align your fire. If their rounds come too close, tap the roll to either side and take them off their axis and you'll be fine.

Against a human, that's a good way to find yourself turning into an expanding cloud of shrapnel.

I've noticed some significant problems with my dogfighting. Taking on Omega O the other night, I came close to beating him once in eight tries. He usually uses FA mode, and when I wasn't in FA I couldn't get within range to hit him accurately. When I used FA, I got in range, but couldn't dodge.

Against Tumblemonster the other day he recommended physics mode, so I've been trying to use that. It's almost impossible for me to close with a Tycorp when in physics mode, and it seems to have the most usefullness against other humans who are also using it.

So, I'd like to hear what kinds of battle tactics you folk use. I'm obviously doing something wrong and I'd like to address it. If anyone wants to meet up in game and coach me sometime, I'm down with that, too.

Looking forward to your replies.

~D.
"Nigel"

I am Rocketjock, hear me roar.

For rockets, I do three basic things. THese are expanded upon in my mind, but they all come back to these three basic roots:

1) Hold your fire and observe. Despite people's best efforts, they will eventually dodge into patterns, if very subtle and loosely connected. With this knowledge, one can fire ahead of their path. Even if they see and try to dodge, only the best can roll out in time.

2) If your enemy is within 100 meters of you and staying in that distance, smile, turn on Physics and back up. Once you do this, you now either put more distance between you two or just left him behind and can unload rockets. If you cannot put distance like this, turn away and turbo, but be sure to dodge and change directions often. Nothing worse than running away in a straight line.

3) Be patient and don't waste ammo. I had two big reasons for dying when I first started out with my trusty ol' Hornet Mk3 filled to the brim with Sunflare Rockets: Self kill and OOA. OOA is Out Of Ammo. Nothing worse in combat then beng out of this stuff. Most suggest using at least one energy weapon for this reason, but I realy can't aim for diddly with energy and don't have the patience for it. Plus I like to watch the rockets red glare :D

I don't know how much this'll help you Nigel, but these are good tips for rocket fighting (with, not against).

I fight only energy/light combos (and admittingly have been on the losing end the majority of the last few months) so here is all I can offer:

FA on (arcade) = premium attacking capabilities

FA off (physics) = premium dodging capabilities

Arrange to have the switch somewhere accessable. I turn FA on and off over twenty times a fight.

http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Player_VS._Player

Yay wiki to the rescue. I started this page for the reason you started this thread; so if you have anything to add - feel free! :)

Losing end my ass, Gav! You have almost two thousand PKs! Why you think I asked you?

Seriously, though, I appreciate the response from both of you. I prefer the energy weapons such as Gav uses, so that response is a little more helpful to me, but I'm not going to be the only person reading this, I'm sure.

+++++

Gav, are there specific patterns that you look for that trigger a FA/N-FA switch? I'm not sure if I can make that more clear as a question, but I'll try...

Hmmm... in martial arts of the barehand sort, a good fighter never watches hands or feet. Those can move in a flash and execute a swift and potentially lethal feint. Good fighters watch the chest or the hips. There are certain things I look for: if the left shoulder is swinging away from me I immediately counterpunch with the right hand. If the right hip comes forward I set a chamber block.

I'm actually looking for these things BEFORE or AS they happen. Can you think of anything in the game that might trigger the switch for you? (Oh, and do you use a mouse/KBD or joystick? I assume joystick.)

I know the one time we faced it didn't take long for you to take care of me. While that probably didn't last long enough for you to really have much to say, was there anything you noticed in my tactics that could be improved? At the time I was a mouse/KBD in FA mode, but now I have the stick, so movement is a little less erratic.

+++++

Moldy;

I'm not really a rocket fighter, but any tactical knowledge is useful. Flares are unguided, right? With a proximity detonation? Those have a certain range-before-arming, don't they? What ranges do you find them the most effective? Does it hamper them if an opponent gets right into your grill? (How odd that if you fire them at someone from your own nation they'll do no damage, but they'll do damage to you... that's an interesting gap.)

It's funny, looking at my levels, I'm a veteran. Looking at the pathetic way I PvP I'm worse than a rank newb.

I'd love to meet up with youse guys somewhere for a tutorial if you have time. Maybe over the weekend?

Actually, I know a couple of Gav's alts, but Moldy, who are you in-game?

Thanks gents.

~D.
"Nigel"

LC;

Hey, is there a basic tutorial for Wikipedia? I've wanted to edit/post a few things here and there but I was afraid I'd screw up someone's page full of information. Nothing I felt like adding ot editing seemed worth the risk.

Also, there's a backwards strafe button? Which one is that?

As good information comes into this thread I'll post to the Wiki, if I can figure out how to do it without turnign the entire project into a collection of random bytes. (You laugh, but I've done it.)

Thanks;

~D.
"Nigel"

I'm not really sure how to instruct you, considering the plethora of setups you will be facing and the different tactics for each utilized by each and every other person. Some adapt on the fly well, some take a few fights to adapt, some don't adapt at all.

But I'll start with energy on energy, light on light.

Basically, if you feel in charge (ie your nose is pointed at them and you are in no danger of over aiming [aiming for where the recticle says they will be, when they aren't there yet, and all of a sudden their nose is pointed at you]) FA is on. As soon as I feel I'm losing control of the fight, FA is off and I start rolling and strafing (backrolling essentially, but not the sort that is so frowned upon). I do this until I am roughly 200m away from my opponent, and therefore relatively immune to his or her fire. I will usually stay here, flicking FA on only to maintain distance until I either: a) get my breath back, b) feel I'm ready to go back in and attempt to gain control of the fight, or c) have managed to finish off my glass of Cedar Creek Estate Select Pinot Noir '04 (which I think is why my kill/death ratio has been plummetting so drastically lately).

*Disclaimer* The aforementioned tactics are in no way guaranteed against any of the following: AGT, Rockets, Missiles, Rails, Mines, Cargo, or Asteroids.

Also, combat binds are for people who can't adapt. And you will not be able to adapt if you use combat binds. They are a catch 22, and best left alone.

Keep the gold flowing;)

we are many that fight PvP like lame ducks!!

-Hortan

One thing I find useful is to have sparring matches with players who are admired by the same nation as you . You can shoot each other without any damage , just for practice .

Maybe I should put it in suggestions , but in the long term an offical sparring mode could be added in the same form as duelling . Along the lines of /spar challenge "fred", a timed 3 minute bout , then a messge " fred did 10000 damage , Ecka did 8000 damage , fred wins.

This would encourage newer players to practice combat without the loss of a ship , and encourage more real pvp in the game.

Cheers

Ecka

That's actually a fantastic idea. Throw it together in a more comprehensive thread in the suggestion forum. It would complement the "removal of friendly fire" push (of which I'm an avid supporter) in an interesting way.

I would add: Make it so there might be two options, timed or health; where timed restricts itself to your guidelines, and health restricts itself to a finite amount of damage.

There could be a "board of champions" (purely nationalistic egotism and patriotism building of course) recording all the recent scores at every nation station (might be more interesting if it was "inflated" depending on which faction's station you were in [requiring the required faction fix]).

Anyway, good idea, post it.

One thing that I'm discovering as I get into more and more PvP is tha botting is next to useless as practice. It's an unfortunate irnoy that you need to bot to get the levels needed to use the weapons that will make you successful at PvP... BUT, the patterns used by the bots bear no resemblence whatsoever to those used by a human pilot.

Well said. Young grasshopper, you are destined for greatness.

One piece of advice I can offer is if you don't mind coughing up $40 or so, use a joystick with an 8-d hat bound to strafe. I've found it affords much tighter control than using mouselook.

Of course there are others who would say you lose some visibility with joystick controls, but that's the beauty of PvP in VO... as you advance you will find there are dozens of different fighting styles and effective tactics, you just have to find what works for you.

Ok Nigel.
Forget about learning anything from ppl posting their impressions and advice.
The only way to learn combat fairly quickly is to fight good pilots willing to tell you on the spot what are you doing good/wrong and how to improve your tactics or style.

Dont be afraid to die. You wont learn much if you train with same nation pilots unless yr duelling, no dmg no sense of real danger, hence learning expirience = 0.

I helped a lot of players to get better at pvp that way and I for one learned to fight good the same way.
Good old Yoda passed his knowledge to me by killing my newbie ass lots and so did Martin, Shape, Eldrad, Gavan, Spellcast..... you name them, they killed me. :P

From my VO expirience its the only way.

P.S. Imho i learned my lessons good, my VO chars combined now have +3200 pks. XD

Just wiggle your nose and shoot :)

Yah, my appologies to Kix, he was one of my good teachers too. :)

Kay, Gents, I'm going to reply to everyone by name in this message to keep from posting a bunch of messages into the thread.

First off, everyone, thanks for the advice. Every nugget is important, and it's all appreciated.

+++++

Gav;

I'm not sure what a combat bind is. I THINK it's a preselected series of movements keyed to one button or key that people can use in combat. If that's true, then I definitely agree that it's impossible to get good at combat while using it. (I also am not a huge fan of self-targeting weapons for the same reason. I might be more successful with Gauss, but I'll never improve from where I am right now.)

I've reset my binds to move the FA/N-FA button to my joystick, and played with it for about twenty minutes last night against some bots, just to get the feel. It's a little unusual, but it seemed to get smoother with some practice. The biggest problem is that I have small hands, and several of the buttons on the damn joystick are not in a comfortable place for me. (No kidding, my motorcycle gloves are a ladies' small.)

+++++

Ecka/Davejohn;

I concur with Gav. That's a fantastic idea. Another player and I were doing that the other night, think it was DrDoak007 or Joloc, but we weren't able to keep score. The use of a sparring command to be able to spar with anyone would be highly useful. It would allow guildmates to practice together as well without dumping a lot of money or risking the loss of a special ship or weapon. (Imagine getting a N3, trying to practice with it, and losing it during that practice. That would suck, but I'm sure it's happened.)

I haven't checked the suggestions forum, but if you've posted this there I'll definitely back it. Good idea.

+++++

Phaser;

Unfortunately, there was a time when dropping $40 on a joystick would have been nothing, but that time is not now. Until my house sells, I'm reduced to eating Top Ramen (GAAHHHH! I hate that stuff.) and keeping costs as low as possible. I have a good Sietek Cyborg Evo. It offers a hat, three buttons on the body on each side, and five thumb buttons, as well as a "twist" axis.

I have it bound like this:

Trigger: Duh
R/L lower thumb buttons: strafe
L Upper Thumb button: Activate
R Upper Thumb button: FA on/off
Center lower thumb: Select nearest hostile

Hat Up: Target in front
Hat down: no target
Hat R/L: Scroll next/previous

Left side body buttons:
Top: Boost
Middle: Hail
Bottom: PDA ships in sector screen (u)

With a hand on the stick and my left hand on either the keyboard or the three side buttons the side buttons on the right are impossible to use. I have nothing bound there.

Any ideas for a more practical system of binds are definitely welcome. I know I should use "what works for me" but I can't say that this is working wonders for me, in all honesty.

+++++

Bojan;

I agree with you, but there's a certain non-visceral element as well. While someone doesn't need to know what an Immelman turn is to execute one, reading about it before hand can give them the knowledge that such a tactic is possible, giving them a chance to try it.

All the talking and teaching in the world won't teach a fighter to take a punch. He needs to get walloped in the ring a few times before he understands that he CAN take the blow and survive it. Dogfighting is the same way in many respects, I agree with you. However, there are two big things to consider:

1) I need to learn primary tactics as well as practice them, and this forum is a great way to gather ideas to try in practice.

and 2) I can't practice VO while I'm at work, but I CAN read this forum. At least it's something.

So, overall, you're 100% right that the best way to improve is to practice, but if you can't get in the game, this has to be the next best thing.

Thanks for the replies.

~D.
"Nigel"

K, here are my 2c

Use all 4 strafes, rolls are entirely secondary.

Rolls can be useful, but you're better off being able to quickly go in a particular direction.

So I set my strafes to wasd, with accelerate/decelerate on rf

Secondly, RE: FA-fighting, there are a few things to keep in mind

1) you need to control your forward velocity closely. There are times, and weapons, with which you should be at specific speeds.

Try these:

Against Multis/Gankers with energy: FA mode Velocity 0
Against Gauss: FA mode Velocity 20-30
Against Neuts: FA mode Velocity 40+
Against rails: always full speed

Against Flares: Switch back and forth between FA on and off. Use FA on for your approach, if they fire, hit FA off and break. As soon as you've evaded the rocket, switch back into FA and approach again.

Lastly, You should keep your nose pointed at them 90% of the time, it means they can't outmaneuver you, and you'd be surprised how easy it is to dodge. Just watch their ship, not the streams of fire, after a while you'll get a good idea of how fast certain ships can turn, and you'll be able to stay out of the fire, without ever even looking at it.

I use similar tactics to the ones mentioned here, but I think the key thing to remember is that no one tactic is going to get you a win everytime. Most of the time, as opposed to using a specific tactic, I find myself just watching my target and doing my best to adapt to what he does.

In terms of FA on/off, learn to see what movements in your enemy warrant the switch. Switching FA off/on at the wrong moment can make you more of a target than not doing so. But at the right moment, it works wonders for escaping, turning the angle on your opponent, or throwing off an opponent trying to anticipate your pattern thus causing him to overcompensate.

I do reccomend shape's key config if you're just starting out. I'm trying to switch to it myself, but with 2 years playing default controls I'm having trouble breaking habits =)

And do take a look at the wiki, there's some good advice from a collection of people there.

Nigel,

I am by no means any good at PVP, but I'll pass on a couple thoughts from a lesson with Norseman (I think).

1. Assign strafe to wasd like Shape said.
2. Consider using Calder's combat flight assist bind (http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Combat_Flight_Assist). It does a pretty good job of giving the "always forward" advantage of FA while retaining the maneuverability of physics mode. It doesn't necessarilly address Shape's recommended forward velocities, but it's a good start.

Does anyone else use this bind?

Ivan

Ack! Binds?!

Don't use binds! they take away your flexibility.

The best ones, like the ones Calder uses, attempt to deal with this problem, but the fact is, that its a very exploitable weakness.

Again, there's so many good posts that I'm going to blanket reply rather than monopolize the forum with my own.

+++++

Shape;

Not really sure what you mean by a "multi" That's slang I haven't run across yet. This is excellent advice, though. Honestly, I haven't been paying a lot of attention to my throttle. Generally I leave it stuck to max and don't back it down.

Oh, did you mean "velocity 0" against multis? I think I'm misunderstanding you, because in my bean that means not moving at all. I don't think that's what you meant.

+++++

Ghost;

I might move to a key config. I'm not certain how that will impact me with the joystick. One thing that concerns me is getting my fingers on the wrong keys at an inopportune moment. If possible, I'd rather use the joystick buttons. If I could adjust the head of my joystick down another ten degrees I could probably use the hat entirely for all four strafing directions, but it's a little uncomfortable with these tiny-ass mitts. I'll play around with it some. Wish my damn hands were normal sized.

+++++

Ivan;

I would prefer not to use binds. Like Shape says, I think they make one predictable. I'll look into it, though, because I'll use any advantage I can find. Exactly what does this bind do? Oh, and this is probably a rather stupid question, but how does on install a bind? I've never done so, other than in the "Controls" menu. This looks like programming code, is it pasted into the config.ini file or something?

+++++

All;

Great stuff. I'm learning a lot. We'll have to see what happens when I try to put some of this stuff into action in the game, but hopefully good things come about.

~D.