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EVE-Online went online today with less than stellar results. It doesn't surprise me that much, because they appeared to have tons of development issues and a feature set that appeared overly ambitious to me - they wanted to simulate an entire communities economy at every production level, and the governance of an entire community at every level of authority. Prior experience with MMORPG's led me to believe that this is only possible if most of your community stays online 16 hours a day. Peak server loads are likely to increase, but at present they are only managing peak volumes of about 700 users. This means that the Vendetta community is at present nearly 5-10% as strong as EVE's - a fully finished game worked on by dozens of artists and contents providers for years and which has been marketed in major publications.
On the one hand, this is very good news. EVE-Online had the potential of sucking up the online spacer community and locking out future competitors if it managed to become a legitimate franchise. If it turns into vaporware like Earth & Beyond did, then the niche market for a online MMORPG in space is still unfilled. Maybe publishers will be asking the question why they failed and seeing in Vendetta the answer - those titles didn't have the kind of gameplay the spacers are looking for.
On the other hand, this is very bad news. I was kinda hoping that a marginal success by the European title would get the major US publishers scrambling for a competitive product. Worse case scenario is that the suits stupidly write off the whole concept of a sci-fi MMORPG on the grounds that so many have faile the way that everyone was writing off the RPG before Diablo appeared on the scene like gang busters (and it wasn't even that good).
I'd like to stay optimistic. This is more good news than bad, right?
On the one hand, this is very good news. EVE-Online had the potential of sucking up the online spacer community and locking out future competitors if it managed to become a legitimate franchise. If it turns into vaporware like Earth & Beyond did, then the niche market for a online MMORPG in space is still unfilled. Maybe publishers will be asking the question why they failed and seeing in Vendetta the answer - those titles didn't have the kind of gameplay the spacers are looking for.
On the other hand, this is very bad news. I was kinda hoping that a marginal success by the European title would get the major US publishers scrambling for a competitive product. Worse case scenario is that the suits stupidly write off the whole concept of a sci-fi MMORPG on the grounds that so many have faile the way that everyone was writing off the RPG before Diablo appeared on the scene like gang busters (and it wasn't even that good).
I'd like to stay optimistic. This is more good news than bad, right?
It could be good. However, it will nail yet another spike into the prematurely built coffin of space MMORPGs. A publisher, seeing how Earth and Beyond failed won't be eager to pick up what very well could be another major flop.
Rant Mode: ON
UGhhh! Okay, I've never really played EVN in depth before. But it doesn't look all that attractive to me, because I'd rather prefer something more... how do you say... 3D. It's a 2D game, and I'm not doubting its addiction factor, but I think one of the biggest selling points of any game is having the latest and flashy graphics. And I know I'm not the only one that gets sucked into beautiful 3D graphics either. When I want a space combat sim, or MMORPG for that matter, I want it to mimic the 3Dness of reality. The reason why EverQuest has the edge over a text-based or 2D MMORPG game is because of the "realistic" graphics and vastness of the world. Granted it's not the most beautiful graphics you'll ever see, it still provides a lot more dimension than your regular run-of-the-mill MMORPG.
Vendetta and EVN weren't built to compete against each other. Heck, the style of gameplay aren't anywhere close to being duplicates of each other. Vendetta leans more towards actually piloting the ship and getting into dogfights, using fleets for teamwork. While EVN does allow combat, it's only limited to the traditional 2D environment. And unless EVN provides some revolutionary way of combat for every 2D space combat sim, weapons and ships (rather than piloting skills) usually determines who the winner of a battle is. EVN also puts more emphasis on the economical and diplomatical aspects of gameplay, whereas Vendetta puts most of its emphasis on actually piloting the ships and engaging in combat. There's a certain emphasis on the space combat portion of Vendetta that can't be found in EVN. For those who like a little combat and excitement, Vendetta will definitely appeal more to them. Of course I'm pretty sure that economics and politics between nations/races will get a lot more complex for the final version of Vendetta. But I think what most Vendetta fans are attracted to right now is having full 3D control of their ships, beautiful graphics, an extra dimension to exploration, and that special emphasis on combat.
Pardon my venting, but I'm just tired of seeing people say, "Vendetta should be like EVN. Vendetta should have <insert EVN ship or weapon name here>. Vendetta's interface should be more like EVN. Vendetta's style of gameplay should be more like EVN." Well enough is enough! It's NOT EVN, and it will NEVER be EVN. Vendetta's future is NOT in jeopardy because of some new version of EVN.
And let me also add that if I was developing a game and if I had a website with a messageboard with people posting things like, "Uhhh, listen guys... there's this really cool MMORPG out there that's really gonna take away your audience. just a heads up.", I know I wouldn't feel too happy to see something like that, especially with the amount of time and effort put into making a game that's not even finished. Please take this into consideration before making posts like these, even if it's not something serious or credible.
Rant Mode: OFF
UGhhh! Okay, I've never really played EVN in depth before. But it doesn't look all that attractive to me, because I'd rather prefer something more... how do you say... 3D. It's a 2D game, and I'm not doubting its addiction factor, but I think one of the biggest selling points of any game is having the latest and flashy graphics. And I know I'm not the only one that gets sucked into beautiful 3D graphics either. When I want a space combat sim, or MMORPG for that matter, I want it to mimic the 3Dness of reality. The reason why EverQuest has the edge over a text-based or 2D MMORPG game is because of the "realistic" graphics and vastness of the world. Granted it's not the most beautiful graphics you'll ever see, it still provides a lot more dimension than your regular run-of-the-mill MMORPG.
Vendetta and EVN weren't built to compete against each other. Heck, the style of gameplay aren't anywhere close to being duplicates of each other. Vendetta leans more towards actually piloting the ship and getting into dogfights, using fleets for teamwork. While EVN does allow combat, it's only limited to the traditional 2D environment. And unless EVN provides some revolutionary way of combat for every 2D space combat sim, weapons and ships (rather than piloting skills) usually determines who the winner of a battle is. EVN also puts more emphasis on the economical and diplomatical aspects of gameplay, whereas Vendetta puts most of its emphasis on actually piloting the ships and engaging in combat. There's a certain emphasis on the space combat portion of Vendetta that can't be found in EVN. For those who like a little combat and excitement, Vendetta will definitely appeal more to them. Of course I'm pretty sure that economics and politics between nations/races will get a lot more complex for the final version of Vendetta. But I think what most Vendetta fans are attracted to right now is having full 3D control of their ships, beautiful graphics, an extra dimension to exploration, and that special emphasis on combat.
Pardon my venting, but I'm just tired of seeing people say, "Vendetta should be like EVN. Vendetta should have <insert EVN ship or weapon name here>. Vendetta's interface should be more like EVN. Vendetta's style of gameplay should be more like EVN." Well enough is enough! It's NOT EVN, and it will NEVER be EVN. Vendetta's future is NOT in jeopardy because of some new version of EVN.
And let me also add that if I was developing a game and if I had a website with a messageboard with people posting things like, "Uhhh, listen guys... there's this really cool MMORPG out there that's really gonna take away your audience. just a heads up.", I know I wouldn't feel too happy to see something like that, especially with the amount of time and effort put into making a game that's not even finished. Please take this into consideration before making posts like these, even if it's not something serious or credible.
Rant Mode: OFF
But did Earth and Beyond have testers WHILE under production?
That was an interesting rant Arolte...
(Should I tell him that EVE-Online has no relationship to EVN?)
(Should I tell him that EVE-Online has no relationship to EVN?)
rofl
Hmmm... oops. I guess too many people have talked about EVN in the past that "EVE" automatically clicked in as "EVN". But my last paragraph still remains relevant to the topic. Please hold off on posts like these. I DON'T want Vendetta's development to stop because some person shouting that the sky is falling. There are VERY FEW, if any, Macintosh space MMORPG games out there. There's a lot on the line for those who don't own a PC.
One thing that I also value about Vendetta is the simplicity of gameplay. You don't need a $200 Steel Battalion type controller to control your ship. The interface, albeit still a bit rudimentery, still makes a lot more sense than any other space combat sim or MMORPG game I've ever played. It may not be the the Doom III of space combat sims in terms of graphics or complexity, but it's one of the most addictive (if not THE most addictive) games out there. And it's only a test.
One thing that I also value about Vendetta is the simplicity of gameplay. You don't need a $200 Steel Battalion type controller to control your ship. The interface, albeit still a bit rudimentery, still makes a lot more sense than any other space combat sim or MMORPG game I've ever played. It may not be the the Doom III of space combat sims in terms of graphics or complexity, but it's one of the most addictive (if not THE most addictive) games out there. And it's only a test.
I don't think I said the sky is falling...
Back when I sold Rainbird irrigation systems for a living, if someone had told me that Toro's latest product had been released filled with bugs and wasn't being well recieved or going over nearly as well as Toro had hoped, I would have considered it a good thing.
BTW, I do agree with you about EVN, and while the two games aren't related (despite the oddly similar names), its true that Vendetta's big selling point over EVE is its much greater interactivity during combat. When you get down to it other than the graphics, games like EVE could be written in Java. Press 'a' to watch an attack animation.
For my money EVE offers all the game playing of getting to be a resource collector in a RTSG. It's kinda nice to know that you contributed to building 'the barracks', but its alot more fun to be involved in the fight. All that time they spent on economics and politics is nice (I love it) but without rockem' sockem' combat engine at the core it just can't hold my attention.
Back when I sold Rainbird irrigation systems for a living, if someone had told me that Toro's latest product had been released filled with bugs and wasn't being well recieved or going over nearly as well as Toro had hoped, I would have considered it a good thing.
BTW, I do agree with you about EVN, and while the two games aren't related (despite the oddly similar names), its true that Vendetta's big selling point over EVE is its much greater interactivity during combat. When you get down to it other than the graphics, games like EVE could be written in Java. Press 'a' to watch an attack animation.
For my money EVE offers all the game playing of getting to be a resource collector in a RTSG. It's kinda nice to know that you contributed to building 'the barracks', but its alot more fun to be involved in the fight. All that time they spent on economics and politics is nice (I love it) but without rockem' sockem' combat engine at the core it just can't hold my attention.
And a market that many of you may have forgotten... Us linux users... lots of us are geeks... many geeks like sci-fi... we will LOVE a Sci-Fi MMORPG SPECIALLY one that has native linux client! Is it as big as the Windows market? IT could be!!!!
Eve is a graphically beautiful game, and the guys from CCP I met last year at E3 seemed like a cool bunch, so from the fellow dev standpoint, I hope they succeed. If they don't, it could well lead to a negative publisher perspective on space-based MMOs. We'll just have to deal with what comes and do the best we can.
I maintain, as I have since we started development (a depressingly long time ago), that there is a need for a fully realtime combat model to make this genre truly appealing. I grew up playing Wing Commander and X-Wing and such, and I think others who wish to see that sort of game translated into an MMO universe, also desire that degree of control. Making "everquest in space", with a click-and-roll-dice combat model, is kind of an inherently flawed idea if you're trying to appeal to the space-combat group. I'm sure it appeals to a different market, I'm just not personally from that market, so I can't speak from that point of view :). Unfortunately there are more technological and gameplay caveats with making a fully-realtime-combat game on this scale (network lag being a big one), which tends to (understandably) frighten people off. This is why we had to build and maintain the Vendetta Test, to hopefully provide enough real world testing to let us succeed at the difficult task of creating this sort of game for a very large scale audience. So far so good, I think, but we'll continue to see how it goes and do the best we can :).
Best of luck to CCP Games and EVE Online in any event.
I maintain, as I have since we started development (a depressingly long time ago), that there is a need for a fully realtime combat model to make this genre truly appealing. I grew up playing Wing Commander and X-Wing and such, and I think others who wish to see that sort of game translated into an MMO universe, also desire that degree of control. Making "everquest in space", with a click-and-roll-dice combat model, is kind of an inherently flawed idea if you're trying to appeal to the space-combat group. I'm sure it appeals to a different market, I'm just not personally from that market, so I can't speak from that point of view :). Unfortunately there are more technological and gameplay caveats with making a fully-realtime-combat game on this scale (network lag being a big one), which tends to (understandably) frighten people off. This is why we had to build and maintain the Vendetta Test, to hopefully provide enough real world testing to let us succeed at the difficult task of creating this sort of game for a very large scale audience. So far so good, I think, but we'll continue to see how it goes and do the best we can :).
Best of luck to CCP Games and EVE Online in any event.
I had a friend beta testing EVE... he said the following "I liked the graphics but you really have to spend to much time to get a good ship, and they were wiping the server every week so it got to be same old same old. EVEn though they wiped it it took way to long to have good ships." i pointed him towards vendetta. He likes it a lot more... So thats some good new isnt it?
linux users (the desktop ones) are cheap, odds are the devs will be getting slammed by the linux community (not those of you that are already here) to make it OSS cause they're all nuts (and annoying) like that, but ya, Mac and linux, this is probably one of the greater titles available. This game has alot of things I like and the things id like to see from what ive heard have already been planned all along so for me this is the perfect space sim game since I first played wing commander privateer oh so many years ago -)
Yes, we like OS software, but not 'cause we're cheap. People sanely donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to GNU for free software. Free-as-in-beer, not free-as-in-air. :) It's an ideological thing. Bottom line, like WineX and the Loki games, if it's good enough, we'll buy it.
PS: Please don't make it "pay for each platform". I use Linux and Windows. I refuse to pay seperately for both. Make it "one CD fits all." :)
PS: Please don't make it "pay for each platform". I use Linux and Windows. I refuse to pay seperately for both. Make it "one CD fits all." :)
I am a big fan of piloting a fighter craft.
Unfortunitly, most people would rather fly big starships and control large fleets then control fighters themselves..
"I want to be able to control a large starship rather then fly a miserable little fighter."
The type of flight model I like the best with the ships moving real fast(I forgot what its called) and not freespace style like.
Unfortunitly, most people would rather fly big starships and control large fleets then control fighters themselves..
"I want to be able to control a large starship rather then fly a miserable little fighter."
The type of flight model I like the best with the ships moving real fast(I forgot what its called) and not freespace style like.
I am / was a beta tester for EVE. As has been pointed out, it's a gorgeous game and there's a lot to do and a lot of potential for role-playing. Just the character creator (you have nearly total control over how your character appears, including mood lighting) is entertaining. Stylistically it is different from the usual fare, especially the ships. People who desire a really immersive experience and have a good amount of uninterrupted time will LOVE it!
I like Vendetta more because I find the pace and combat to be more exciting. I don't think EVE's success or lack thereof can be considered a barometer for the niche that Vendetta could occupy. The games are different animals. It's like saying that you could never sell Mustang 5.0s in a given city because the Rolls Royce dealer didn't do so well there.
As for the friend who complained of the servers being wiped every week - it was a free beta. GET USED TO IT, or buy the game when they're done. Of course the final game will not feature weekly server wipes.
I like Vendetta more because I find the pace and combat to be more exciting. I don't think EVE's success or lack thereof can be considered a barometer for the niche that Vendetta could occupy. The games are different animals. It's like saying that you could never sell Mustang 5.0s in a given city because the Rolls Royce dealer didn't do so well there.
As for the friend who complained of the servers being wiped every week - it was a free beta. GET USED TO IT, or buy the game when they're done. Of course the final game will not feature weekly server wipes.
Whistler, how well would a game be tested if just as soon as the beta testers got a good ship they lose it? It doesn't sound like it would get balanced very well.
SL: Whistler will back me up on this I'm sure.
You guys don't know how lucky you are. You don't realize just how frustrating the average beta test is. Beta tests are NOT fun. (Well, they can be, but not in the sense of getting to play a game.) The Vendetta server test is FUN. No application process. No NDA. No weekly server wipes (though those are I'm sure coming down the road) to reset the economy. No code so buggy as to be unplayable. No weekly CD in the mail, twice weekly 198 mb update, ect. No serious demands for thurough reports or you get dropped from the next phase of testing.
You guys don't know how lucky you are. You don't realize just how frustrating the average beta test is. Beta tests are NOT fun. (Well, they can be, but not in the sense of getting to play a game.) The Vendetta server test is FUN. No application process. No NDA. No weekly server wipes (though those are I'm sure coming down the road) to reset the economy. No code so buggy as to be unplayable. No weekly CD in the mail, twice weekly 198 mb update, ect. No serious demands for thurough reports or you get dropped from the next phase of testing.
Actually, this may count as alpha testing, since this is so primitive compared to what the final will be (I think)... Planetside has a nightly update, connection problems (like what we have now), and other stuff, and it's about to go gold... Hehe... Brilliant Sony... :P
I'll back up Celebrim on this one too! I've been a beta tester for other software (Not games). And let me tell you ... having buggy code for office/development related software is a BAD BAD thing at times. :( Specially when the producer of the software is REQUIRING the upgrade to stay certified. Add that in with testing software AND hardware hehe... :) One can lose their hair QUICKLY....
actually pyro.. this is neither alpha nor beta. if you go to the guildsoftware products page and click the link to the vendetta test it specifically states that
"The TEST is not at all representative of the goals or design concepts intended for the final game. It is not a "Beta" or even an "Alpha". Again, it is best to consider it a separate project."
unless they simply havent updated that page (i know the devs have lots to do so it's possible) that means that what we are seeing isn't too much like the game that incarnate and the other devs have in mind. It's more of a test bed for their network archetecture, their server protocalls, etc etc.
as for beta testing i agree celebrim.. i was in on the first stages of the UO beta.. egads.. that was BAD, walk 4 steps, disconnect due to lag.. log in, walk 3 steps, server crashes, wait 5 hours, log in, walk 5 steps, disconnect due to lag. repeat for 5 days.. submit weekly report and start over after the weekend.
"The TEST is not at all representative of the goals or design concepts intended for the final game. It is not a "Beta" or even an "Alpha". Again, it is best to consider it a separate project."
unless they simply havent updated that page (i know the devs have lots to do so it's possible) that means that what we are seeing isn't too much like the game that incarnate and the other devs have in mind. It's more of a test bed for their network archetecture, their server protocalls, etc etc.
as for beta testing i agree celebrim.. i was in on the first stages of the UO beta.. egads.. that was BAD, walk 4 steps, disconnect due to lag.. log in, walk 3 steps, server crashes, wait 5 hours, log in, walk 5 steps, disconnect due to lag. repeat for 5 days.. submit weekly report and start over after the weekend.