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I have to side with the devs here but I will explain why. And then I'm going to say why I'm siding with the users. And I may say why. But it should be obvious.
I dont have the slightest cue of the technical knowledge of most people playing this game. I know some who are more technically inclined but beyond that, I can't say. What I'm about to say might sound pejorative to some or perhaps even snobby. it's not intended as such but I'd like people to understand the scope of things and to do this I will come clear as to what I do myself and offer a point of comparaison.
I'm a Senior Macintosh software developer for Oracle's Montréal Development Center (christened "MDC"). I total more than 8 years of service for that division (wich was previously a small 200 head software company acquired a few years ago by Oracle).
During my work at MDC, I've worked a number of years (8) on a single product and some derivative work: Oracle Calendar (previously CS&T or Steltor CorporateTime, and OEM-ed to HP as OpenTIme and Netscape Calendar during the 4.x Pro days). That product, a massive corporate-centered client/server calendaring groupware application, is used by millions of users around the globe. No kidding.
The Mac version, in it's latest incarnation, is a ~50 megs install. Nearly no graphics and most everything vectored. Most people dont understan the complexity of such a groupware application and just think of an electronic version of a pin-up calendar.
To build the Client-side Mac application requires 800megs of source code (90% of it is text-based sources). That's a few million lines of unique source code lines. When we have new hires, it takes them 6 months ramp up before they can do something remotely useful and about a year to feel comfortable in there.
Interns hate coming to work for us because they feel totally inadequate for the job. Those who persist end up having a very solid work experience, but it still takes them about a year to get to a point where they're really useful to the group.
When dealing with massive source code repositories, wich bits and pieces are used, maintained, tweaked or otherwise contributed by other groups in the same department (or sometime another department), things get even more complicated.
The complete suite of applications and tools that MDC develops has been under development for 15 years with a rough average of 75 person/year. That's 1125 man years of work, give or take 100.
At MDC, we're starting a new project whose first deliverable will not show up for two years. Those who are affected to it (including yours truly) work with people in other divisions amount to about 170 thus far, and the number increases as the project evolves. We're talking close to about 400 man years for the FIRST deliverable.
What I'm trying to demonstrate is that large projects, like what we do at MDC or what Guild Software does with VO, are very time consuming, very complex and very demanding projects.
When something goes wrong or isn't up to spec, it's usually not a matter of fixing it overnight. Throwing interns at it can sometimes actually slow you down, because an intern takes a lot of supervision (I've handled a few myself over the years).
So, with my knowledge of large software development in general, I completely understand the position of Guild software and can live with a delayed update. Yes, it ticks me off that TPG still wont deliver those Raptors I've ordered but such is life and I'd ratter have one Raptor I can fly than a whole fleet of Raptors that sits on the dock unable to take off.
So, go devs go. i'm with you and I feel your pain.
Part deuce.
Geez. I know it sucks, that it can take a couple of hours to do it, but learn to use CVS and branch out your code. Then learn to merge sub-branches and do interim releases just to please your customers! The new project at MDC requires us to maintain and release multiple versions for bug fixes at varying release level/stages all the time.
Get me my Raptor!
But not too soon.
I dont have the slightest cue of the technical knowledge of most people playing this game. I know some who are more technically inclined but beyond that, I can't say. What I'm about to say might sound pejorative to some or perhaps even snobby. it's not intended as such but I'd like people to understand the scope of things and to do this I will come clear as to what I do myself and offer a point of comparaison.
I'm a Senior Macintosh software developer for Oracle's Montréal Development Center (christened "MDC"). I total more than 8 years of service for that division (wich was previously a small 200 head software company acquired a few years ago by Oracle).
During my work at MDC, I've worked a number of years (8) on a single product and some derivative work: Oracle Calendar (previously CS&T or Steltor CorporateTime, and OEM-ed to HP as OpenTIme and Netscape Calendar during the 4.x Pro days). That product, a massive corporate-centered client/server calendaring groupware application, is used by millions of users around the globe. No kidding.
The Mac version, in it's latest incarnation, is a ~50 megs install. Nearly no graphics and most everything vectored. Most people dont understan the complexity of such a groupware application and just think of an electronic version of a pin-up calendar.
To build the Client-side Mac application requires 800megs of source code (90% of it is text-based sources). That's a few million lines of unique source code lines. When we have new hires, it takes them 6 months ramp up before they can do something remotely useful and about a year to feel comfortable in there.
Interns hate coming to work for us because they feel totally inadequate for the job. Those who persist end up having a very solid work experience, but it still takes them about a year to get to a point where they're really useful to the group.
When dealing with massive source code repositories, wich bits and pieces are used, maintained, tweaked or otherwise contributed by other groups in the same department (or sometime another department), things get even more complicated.
The complete suite of applications and tools that MDC develops has been under development for 15 years with a rough average of 75 person/year. That's 1125 man years of work, give or take 100.
At MDC, we're starting a new project whose first deliverable will not show up for two years. Those who are affected to it (including yours truly) work with people in other divisions amount to about 170 thus far, and the number increases as the project evolves. We're talking close to about 400 man years for the FIRST deliverable.
What I'm trying to demonstrate is that large projects, like what we do at MDC or what Guild Software does with VO, are very time consuming, very complex and very demanding projects.
When something goes wrong or isn't up to spec, it's usually not a matter of fixing it overnight. Throwing interns at it can sometimes actually slow you down, because an intern takes a lot of supervision (I've handled a few myself over the years).
So, with my knowledge of large software development in general, I completely understand the position of Guild software and can live with a delayed update. Yes, it ticks me off that TPG still wont deliver those Raptors I've ordered but such is life and I'd ratter have one Raptor I can fly than a whole fleet of Raptors that sits on the dock unable to take off.
So, go devs go. i'm with you and I feel your pain.
Part deuce.
Geez. I know it sucks, that it can take a couple of hours to do it, but learn to use CVS and branch out your code. Then learn to merge sub-branches and do interim releases just to please your customers! The new project at MDC requires us to maintain and release multiple versions for bug fixes at varying release level/stages all the time.
Get me my Raptor!
But not too soon.
Me waits for the new update.............
*pokes incarnate with a stick*
Good work guys, usually I'd be the one complaining, but I know deadlines suck. So, just keep working. But PLEASEEEE show us SOMETHING! Even if it's just a little screen shot of a raptor in-game, I'd pee myself in happiness if I got to see that.
Anyways, keep up the good work behind the scenes guys, it'll show soon.
*pokes incarnate with a stick*
Good work guys, usually I'd be the one complaining, but I know deadlines suck. So, just keep working. But PLEASEEEE show us SOMETHING! Even if it's just a little screen shot of a raptor in-game, I'd pee myself in happiness if I got to see that.
Anyways, keep up the good work behind the scenes guys, it'll show soon.
Or, have a guide fire up a Raptor, and make a custom widget for "1st Raptor Kill" and award it to whoever pastes them.
A Raptor requires client update. All ship textures and models are client-side.
But we were suggested at some point that we'd get to see the Raptor before the new UI because it wasn't dependent, unlike the Trident and TPF Destroyer.
This is why I'm "somewhat" disapointed we dont get to see it before the new UI.
But I fully understand the issues behind the new update being delayed. So, I'm just being patient. Damnit!
But we were suggested at some point that we'd get to see the Raptor before the new UI because it wasn't dependent, unlike the Trident and TPF Destroyer.
This is why I'm "somewhat" disapointed we dont get to see it before the new UI.
But I fully understand the issues behind the new update being delayed. So, I'm just being patient. Damnit!
Ok, I just updated news. And instead of posting a new screenshot or something, I'm shooting to give you an entire new client to test within a week.
This will be a separately-downloadable test. It won't be on the patch server. But everyone will be welcome to give it a shot.
We have our work cut out for us to get it all ready to be packaged up, but we'll get it done. No new ships until the client is formally "in production" though.
This will be a separately-downloadable test. It won't be on the patch server. But everyone will be welcome to give it a shot.
We have our work cut out for us to get it all ready to be packaged up, but we'll get it done. No new ships until the client is formally "in production" though.
i have to confess that i'm one of those ghost players who could be generating in game content, but well the last time i did that i inadvertantly (that's my story and i', sticking to it) invoked the wrath of an enteir guild and i just haven't felt like doing anything else since then.
also i understand the dev's position. i've been the guy promicing cool new content in a moth, while refusing to let others work on it [to avoid them screwing something up] and the finding out it'll take 6 moths to finish instead of the 1 i promised admitedly never on a project of Vo's scale. I've also been the incompotent new hire who takes a month just to learn the basic procedures of a quality assurence company (ironicly my experience as a game tester is at least partly responcable for the fact that i almost never log onto the test server or report bugs that aren't crash level errors, the rest of the resposability lies with my lazyness)
but most of that is off topic, so:
/me cheers on the devs and the new client
also i understand the dev's position. i've been the guy promicing cool new content in a moth, while refusing to let others work on it [to avoid them screwing something up] and the finding out it'll take 6 moths to finish instead of the 1 i promised admitedly never on a project of Vo's scale. I've also been the incompotent new hire who takes a month just to learn the basic procedures of a quality assurence company (ironicly my experience as a game tester is at least partly responcable for the fact that i almost never log onto the test server or report bugs that aren't crash level errors, the rest of the resposability lies with my lazyness)
but most of that is off topic, so:
/me cheers on the devs and the new client
any responses about the newspost, please put here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/12623
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/12623
all you complainers! shaddup you!
vote with your wallets and quit!
you are not forced to buy the product!
dont play if you think things is stagnent!
i will vote with my wallet too!
vote with your wallets and quit!
you are not forced to buy the product!
dont play if you think things is stagnent!
i will vote with my wallet too!
you mean your daddies wallet!É
I'm with Spellcast on this. I played a lot when it was still free, and I only got a subscription as of late (hope my payment helps :).
I will hang on to this game forever in case it gets big, which I really hope, and if not, I'll keep playing (and paying) until the devs kick us from the servers to shut them down.
And yes, I own a Mac...
I will hang on to this game forever in case it gets big, which I really hope, and if not, I'll keep playing (and paying) until the devs kick us from the servers to shut them down.
And yes, I own a Mac...
I like toshiro more now cause he owns a Mac. I think he added that little comment because he wants to get on my good side.
Will the update be on the test server this weekend?
Will the update be on the test server this weekend?
/me slaps LeberMac
I've been using macs for as long as I've been using computers! I was merely adding that because it would put my ardour a bit in perspective.
I've been using macs for as long as I've been using computers! I was merely adding that because it would put my ardour a bit in perspective.
I am investing in this game with my 8 bucks per month, because I have hopes this will lead to something fun soon (TM). There is no other MAC space multiplayer game, period. I looked for a long time. I have always considered this a beta paid or not. Back then when the devs went paid all went "wooho, lets help the devs continue", and now whoever complains about paying should just stop paying and maybe come back in 6 months. What we are being told regarding progress makes alot of sense. For those impatient fellows: go kill some monsters in doom or the like. Yeah, I dont "play" as much as at the beginning, there is nothing much "to do" in VO right now. I agree. Anyway my 8 bucks go to the devs, GO KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK, most of us here believe in you guys. And: SURPRISE ME!
mgl_mouser:
just because your product is poorly documented, has no architecture, s full of 15 year old garbage cruft, and nobody wants to 'train the n00bs', doesnt mean its complex.
just because your product is poorly documented, has no architecture, s full of 15 year old garbage cruft, and nobody wants to 'train the n00bs', doesnt mean its complex.
this thread should be closed.... :P