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VO - initial thoughts and impressions
Welcome to VO, Priapus... some very interesting comments.
On ship price/availability: this will be changing in a balance update soon to come.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11768
On combat: As an addicted veteran it would be too easy for me to say "you'll get used to it" but I've heard other people voice the same opinion: namely that the lateral thrusters are stong enough to give combat more of a FPS feel than a flight sim feel. Aw hell I'm going to say it anyway; you will learn to love it. Once you start PvPing, the hundreds of various tactics begin to unfold, you suddenly realize that combat in VO isn't FPS or flight sim... it's space kung fu! ;p
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/11809
On ship price/availability: this will be changing in a balance update soon to come.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11768
On combat: As an addicted veteran it would be too easy for me to say "you'll get used to it" but I've heard other people voice the same opinion: namely that the lateral thrusters are stong enough to give combat more of a FPS feel than a flight sim feel. Aw hell I'm going to say it anyway; you will learn to love it. Once you start PvPing, the hundreds of various tactics begin to unfold, you suddenly realize that combat in VO isn't FPS or flight sim... it's space kung fu! ;p
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/11809
Phaserlight said it all.
GO!!!! KUNG FU!!
(> ")> !GO! <(" <)
GO!!!! KUNG FU!!
(> ")> !GO! <(" <)
I'm going to have to also agree with Phaserlight here. And even if there were things that would be better changed, the flight system is the heart and soul of this game, and has been around longer then any other part of the game, and I don't see it changing ever.
Welcome to spacecrack... er Vendetta Online...
Your comments on the flight engine are quite astute, however Phaserlight and johnhawl have pretty well pinpointed the situation.
the game was designed to have a quasi-FPS feel to it in the combat, and quite probably will not be changing in any significant manner, it's just too deep within the engine for significant changes.
On the other hand there has been some discussion about altering the top speed and acceleration rate of the strafes and such on SOME ships as a method of balance, to add another layer of diversity to the game.
on the whole however phaserlight said it best.. its not flight-sim OR FPS when engaged in PvP, it really is space kung-fu. circling is where it starts, but it actually does go FAR beyond that.
Against the AI.. wellllllllllll, the AI is just a touch.. umm retarded is about the kindest thing you can say about it's fighting skills, but the same can be said for just about all game AI's
Your comments on the flight engine are quite astute, however Phaserlight and johnhawl have pretty well pinpointed the situation.
the game was designed to have a quasi-FPS feel to it in the combat, and quite probably will not be changing in any significant manner, it's just too deep within the engine for significant changes.
On the other hand there has been some discussion about altering the top speed and acceleration rate of the strafes and such on SOME ships as a method of balance, to add another layer of diversity to the game.
on the whole however phaserlight said it best.. its not flight-sim OR FPS when engaged in PvP, it really is space kung-fu. circling is where it starts, but it actually does go FAR beyond that.
Against the AI.. wellllllllllll, the AI is just a touch.. umm retarded is about the kindest thing you can say about it's fighting skills, but the same can be said for just about all game AI's
Yeah. Use rockets, and it become space jousting. Energy = fencing, Rockets = Charging horse with deadly lance
Heh, since the literal translation of Kung-Fu means something along the lines of "Skill in Combat (or work)", Space Kung-Fu is a very good description of this game.
Once you get into it, the PvP is very very fun. There's a LARGE amount of frustration at first, especially when you're a n00b fighting more experienced players. But you start to learn tricks and dodges and stuff, and soon after your first PK, you're hooked. You can start with the usual circle-strafe, but the game allows MUCH more than that. You can joust, spiral in/out, control your ROF by alternating between secondary & primary fire, or by equipping different ROF weaps, adjust your relative motion by switching between FA on/off, hell you can even write custom dodge binds that activate when you press a key or a joystick command.
Being a real-life martial arts practitioner from Tae-Kwon-Do to Kung-Fu to Kickboxing to Judo, Vendetta-Online is very much like a martial art. It takes far more skill to be good at combat in Vendetta than any other game (online or not) that I have come across. I think that's why it is so fun.
Once you get into it, the PvP is very very fun. There's a LARGE amount of frustration at first, especially when you're a n00b fighting more experienced players. But you start to learn tricks and dodges and stuff, and soon after your first PK, you're hooked. You can start with the usual circle-strafe, but the game allows MUCH more than that. You can joust, spiral in/out, control your ROF by alternating between secondary & primary fire, or by equipping different ROF weaps, adjust your relative motion by switching between FA on/off, hell you can even write custom dodge binds that activate when you press a key or a joystick command.
Being a real-life martial arts practitioner from Tae-Kwon-Do to Kung-Fu to Kickboxing to Judo, Vendetta-Online is very much like a martial art. It takes far more skill to be good at combat in Vendetta than any other game (online or not) that I have come across. I think that's why it is so fun.
One of the reasons why VO combat doesn't feel like most flight sim combat is because ships don't need to maintain continuous air flow over any lifting body/wings in order to maintain aloft.
In space, you can spin around on a dime if you want to and not risk stalling your ship.
Now, if it seems like it's all about circling your opponent during combat, it's because there's purpose in that. A slow-dodging ship like the Rag, for example, wouldn't work in this combat style and would be better off at taking some distance (either way) and then making attack runs towards the enemy.
But for lighter ships, wich can run circles around another ship (the IBG or IDF Valk for examples), your best attack strategy is to never remain in place and try to position/aim your ship at the fattest section of your opponent ship.
A Vulture isd really hard to hit head on so if you have a fast-trusting ship, your best angle-of-attack would be to hit it's on either faces of it's very planar surfaces: it's top or underbelly.
Now, the Vulture will require trusting away from that vulnerable position and re-aim it's nose onto the attacking ship. So thus, it becomes a quick dance wich may feel like just running circles around an hypothetical center point, but in fact, is more of a controlled dodging of incoming fire and an attempt at getting to the better edge.
Some are very good at it. And the only reason for that is that they have loads of experience in that.
If you compare the Lucal universe to VO, then there will be differences. Lucas' flight/fight model pretty much mimics WW2 dog fights. Eg, an X-Window looks like it's flying in atmosphere all the time, even in space. That's technically wrong and you've never see an X-Wing to an 180degree spin-about to shoot back at a Tie-Fighter. It's fantasy fiction (or plain bad pilots!). Oppose that flight/fight maneuvering to the new Battlestar Gallactica series. They have a very realistic combar scenery in place. More like VO.
In space, you can spin around on a dime if you want to and not risk stalling your ship.
Now, if it seems like it's all about circling your opponent during combat, it's because there's purpose in that. A slow-dodging ship like the Rag, for example, wouldn't work in this combat style and would be better off at taking some distance (either way) and then making attack runs towards the enemy.
But for lighter ships, wich can run circles around another ship (the IBG or IDF Valk for examples), your best attack strategy is to never remain in place and try to position/aim your ship at the fattest section of your opponent ship.
A Vulture isd really hard to hit head on so if you have a fast-trusting ship, your best angle-of-attack would be to hit it's on either faces of it's very planar surfaces: it's top or underbelly.
Now, the Vulture will require trusting away from that vulnerable position and re-aim it's nose onto the attacking ship. So thus, it becomes a quick dance wich may feel like just running circles around an hypothetical center point, but in fact, is more of a controlled dodging of incoming fire and an attempt at getting to the better edge.
Some are very good at it. And the only reason for that is that they have loads of experience in that.
If you compare the Lucal universe to VO, then there will be differences. Lucas' flight/fight model pretty much mimics WW2 dog fights. Eg, an X-Window looks like it's flying in atmosphere all the time, even in space. That's technically wrong and you've never see an X-Wing to an 180degree spin-about to shoot back at a Tie-Fighter. It's fantasy fiction (or plain bad pilots!). Oppose that flight/fight maneuvering to the new Battlestar Gallactica series. They have a very realistic combar scenery in place. More like VO.
I actually do agree with you regarding the forward engines. (Though of course I would, it would just reinforce my FA-style of fighting)
As far as the minimal time to spin round in light fighter, that's one that I like the way it is right now, its possible to get someone off balance, and KEEP them offbalance if you're good at it.
Also the moments of inertia of a ship depend on its size, mass and distribution of that mass. So you get ships that can rotate in interesting ways
It's been proposed (once by me) that strafes for different ships should have different directional strengths, but with all the other things on the devs list, a flight overhaul and the rounds of balancing are probably not yet in the cards.
As far as the minimal time to spin round in light fighter, that's one that I like the way it is right now, its possible to get someone off balance, and KEEP them offbalance if you're good at it.
Also the moments of inertia of a ship depend on its size, mass and distribution of that mass. So you get ships that can rotate in interesting ways
It's been proposed (once by me) that strafes for different ships should have different directional strengths, but with all the other things on the devs list, a flight overhaul and the rounds of balancing are probably not yet in the cards.
> I like the way it is right now, its possible to get someone off balance,
> and KEEP them offbalance if you're good at it.
I hate you Shape. You make me cry.
> and KEEP them offbalance if you're good at it.
I hate you Shape. You make me cry.
Haha.... nothing like juggling someone with a rocket combo, then finishing 'em off with a rail shot.
FATALITY
FATALITY
Interesting ideas Priapus, and all.
(AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong)... The rationale behind the phyisics model is that ships don't use rockets or other reaction drives at all. Gyros are used for attitude control, and thrust is provided by some kind of graviton drive. What look like rocket exhuasts are merely vents.
(AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong)... The rationale behind the phyisics model is that ships don't use rockets or other reaction drives at all. Gyros are used for attitude control, and thrust is provided by some kind of graviton drive. What look like rocket exhuasts are merely vents.
"so a fighter-sized (or rather, massed) spacecraft would essentially turn as fast as your mouse."
If you want your ship to turn with your mouse, press shift+; while in game. This turns off 'mouselook' mode.
If you want your ship to turn with your mouse, press shift+; while in game. This turns off 'mouselook' mode.
Priapus - you make some very good points. Don't mind that most of the people here prefer the game the way it is. A lot of them have been around here for a while - and if the game physics were to change, they wouldn't be as good as they are right now. It would throw them off. (they'll probably get mad for me saying this - but it would happen to me too). However, while comparing this style of gameplay with another game's can be useful... its probably not a good idea to completely mimic or go towards what another game has.
It never really made much sense to me that each ship has these huuuuge engines on the back of them, but the ship can go the same speed in ANY direction (excluding turbo, which relatively isn't that much faster anyways). Changing it would probably change quite a few things we do things in-game, as it's been this way for 3-4 years. Trying to change it would bring a lot of complaints from the current user base, and would be basically really hard to do. Its just the way people are.
As unrealistic as the game may be, combat - the way it is right now - really can be a lot of fun, regardless of how silly it looks. Its a very unique style of space combat. I'm a big fan of old-school dogfights (still modern, actually) where you have to shake somebody off the back of you (bogey on my six!). Buuut, I also see how people can get used to things the way they are. It has its own flavor to it - I just don't think I would call it space-kung-fu...
It never really made much sense to me that each ship has these huuuuge engines on the back of them, but the ship can go the same speed in ANY direction (excluding turbo, which relatively isn't that much faster anyways). Changing it would probably change quite a few things we do things in-game, as it's been this way for 3-4 years. Trying to change it would bring a lot of complaints from the current user base, and would be basically really hard to do. Its just the way people are.
As unrealistic as the game may be, combat - the way it is right now - really can be a lot of fun, regardless of how silly it looks. Its a very unique style of space combat. I'm a big fan of old-school dogfights (still modern, actually) where you have to shake somebody off the back of you (bogey on my six!). Buuut, I also see how people can get used to things the way they are. It has its own flavor to it - I just don't think I would call it space-kung-fu...
I like Vendetta's flight system, and it only feels FPSish to me when i use mouse+kb, I used to use mouse+kb and win! But I found using a stick, or (in my example) a psx2 pad more immersive, I never use flight assist mode, and my aim sucks (heh, compared to when i used to use kb+mouse).
It depends how you play, and yeah, i have been here a while and got to love it.
I have played other stuffs since I started, but nothing that gives the *gritty* combat feel VO does, once you got a kinda hang on it :)
It depends how you play, and yeah, i have been here a while and got to love it.
I have played other stuffs since I started, but nothing that gives the *gritty* combat feel VO does, once you got a kinda hang on it :)
I personally like his ideas of making ships limited in which ways they strafe, like not being able to accelerate backwards as fast as forwards, etc etc. I would really like to see this, but I don't know how much havoc that would cause with the gameplay or physics based flight, and not being able to slow movement in certain directions quickly.
Great comments from a new user Priapus. Welcome to VO.
While the physics in VO is fudged a little bit in terms of directed thrust (magnitude+direction), they do mimic true physical laws with regards to mass+force+angle of force+origin of force on mass+initial velocity in a given direction of said mass. What does it mean? When it comes to moving fast in VO mass is everything. I'd like to apply that logic to something you said:
"With the Warhead way of doing things, you can still conduct a similar style of warfare by matching speed with your opponent (and Warhead gave about 10 different 'autopilot' settings for helping out with things like this), but the manouvering becomes less chaotic because of the less powerful aux thrusters, though if you need a fast manouvre, you point your ship away and use main/retro. It's also less difficult to judge your opponent's next move, because the orientation of their ship tells you where they can move to quickly. The less powerful aux's still allow for unpredictability, so battles aren't over in a flash."
The "point, boost, turn, fire" (pbtf) type combat that you just described is alive and well in this game, it simply takes a different form and timing that what you are used to. The difference lies in one thing: boost systems. I can easily pull a "pbtf" move in a light ship to get a better angle on my opponent by doing point, boost, turn, fire. But it takes longer to do that it would in Warhead because the VO turbo does not kick in to me at full speed immediately. This delay makes pbtf an option to be considered carefully (yet quickly). It must be considered because turbo doesn't hit full speed the second you engage it; there are a few moments where your ship is turned and exposed to enemy fire. And if you are fighting a light ship, your opponent will be able to predict your direction, aim, and fire before you get moving fast enough to outpace their leading shots.
Once more, Welcome to VO.
/me gets a pen and paper and takes notes on PvP from everyone else in this thread because they are all better at it than he is.
While the physics in VO is fudged a little bit in terms of directed thrust (magnitude+direction), they do mimic true physical laws with regards to mass+force+angle of force+origin of force on mass+initial velocity in a given direction of said mass. What does it mean? When it comes to moving fast in VO mass is everything. I'd like to apply that logic to something you said:
"With the Warhead way of doing things, you can still conduct a similar style of warfare by matching speed with your opponent (and Warhead gave about 10 different 'autopilot' settings for helping out with things like this), but the manouvering becomes less chaotic because of the less powerful aux thrusters, though if you need a fast manouvre, you point your ship away and use main/retro. It's also less difficult to judge your opponent's next move, because the orientation of their ship tells you where they can move to quickly. The less powerful aux's still allow for unpredictability, so battles aren't over in a flash."
The "point, boost, turn, fire" (pbtf) type combat that you just described is alive and well in this game, it simply takes a different form and timing that what you are used to. The difference lies in one thing: boost systems. I can easily pull a "pbtf" move in a light ship to get a better angle on my opponent by doing point, boost, turn, fire. But it takes longer to do that it would in Warhead because the VO turbo does not kick in to me at full speed immediately. This delay makes pbtf an option to be considered carefully (yet quickly). It must be considered because turbo doesn't hit full speed the second you engage it; there are a few moments where your ship is turned and exposed to enemy fire. And if you are fighting a light ship, your opponent will be able to predict your direction, aim, and fire before you get moving fast enough to outpace their leading shots.
Once more, Welcome to VO.
/me gets a pen and paper and takes notes on PvP from everyone else in this thread because they are all better at it than he is.
Better not write down anything I said, Forrest...
Well, I've been playing for over a week now.
In that time I've worked my way up to a Moth, so I can bring home the big money that my expensive taste in combat ships and equipment demands. I've lost track of the number of Rag MkIII's I've lost in B-8. I've mined, I've traded, I've fought people and bots... and more bots... and more bots. I've seen all sorts of interesting things, and heard about quite a few things I haven't seen yet. I've fought in buswars, duelled, PvP'ed, and run from pirates. When I first bought a moth, I took a bulk procurement mission, and the cost of the cargo took almost every credit I had... and then I hauled my life's savings through greyspace in a huge, slow tub.
I've seen capships mating (well that's what it looked like), I've watched ships dancing around each other in the distance, plasma fire glittering between them. I've seen 10 simultaneous jump trails bloom and spill the Deneb runners into their first sector. I've met people who've stopped to chat and pass on tips, and even give me money. I've met others who just wanted to turn me into space junk with barely an 'Arrr!'.
And so to my point.
It's still a *little bit* too early to say, but I think I take back what I said about the control system and flight dynamics, and maybe even about the costs, too.
I'm still not a brilliant fighter, but I think I can see how it all hangs together now, where I'm going wrong, and I can begin to improve my technique. I understand enough to learn, I think. In only this short time I've already had some pretty close PvPs, and it's a nice feeling the first time you see someone turn from your guns and run for the deep.
So, if you're a newb like me, reading this, take heed of what the others say. The learning curve, as far as fighting goes, is a little steep at first, but pretty soon it starts to click.
I think it's fair to say I'm fairly hooked.
The ships seem cheap at first, but once you start getting your licences, you burn through the money faster as you grab the latest, greatest kit from Corvus and then burn it against the bots and the PvPers. At least at this stage in the game (where I lose a lot of ships, admittedly!), the money balance seems pretty spot on to me. My traders licence is twice the level of my combat and weapons ones, and that's mainly from funding my weapon addiction, or from increasing my standing with certain corporations, with an eye to the future and their particular ships.
Lastly, here's another observation. I like the idea of events in the game that affect the way the game is played, or re-enforce the feeling of nation or backstory. CtC has a 'real-life' effect in game, according to the wiki - the availability of weapons to the nations. Other things could be tied up like this too... the kills could be totalled by nation, and this could have a nation-based effect. Or total trade within a nation's borders, and so on.
In that time I've worked my way up to a Moth, so I can bring home the big money that my expensive taste in combat ships and equipment demands. I've lost track of the number of Rag MkIII's I've lost in B-8. I've mined, I've traded, I've fought people and bots... and more bots... and more bots. I've seen all sorts of interesting things, and heard about quite a few things I haven't seen yet. I've fought in buswars, duelled, PvP'ed, and run from pirates. When I first bought a moth, I took a bulk procurement mission, and the cost of the cargo took almost every credit I had... and then I hauled my life's savings through greyspace in a huge, slow tub.
I've seen capships mating (well that's what it looked like), I've watched ships dancing around each other in the distance, plasma fire glittering between them. I've seen 10 simultaneous jump trails bloom and spill the Deneb runners into their first sector. I've met people who've stopped to chat and pass on tips, and even give me money. I've met others who just wanted to turn me into space junk with barely an 'Arrr!'.
And so to my point.
It's still a *little bit* too early to say, but I think I take back what I said about the control system and flight dynamics, and maybe even about the costs, too.
I'm still not a brilliant fighter, but I think I can see how it all hangs together now, where I'm going wrong, and I can begin to improve my technique. I understand enough to learn, I think. In only this short time I've already had some pretty close PvPs, and it's a nice feeling the first time you see someone turn from your guns and run for the deep.
So, if you're a newb like me, reading this, take heed of what the others say. The learning curve, as far as fighting goes, is a little steep at first, but pretty soon it starts to click.
I think it's fair to say I'm fairly hooked.
The ships seem cheap at first, but once you start getting your licences, you burn through the money faster as you grab the latest, greatest kit from Corvus and then burn it against the bots and the PvPers. At least at this stage in the game (where I lose a lot of ships, admittedly!), the money balance seems pretty spot on to me. My traders licence is twice the level of my combat and weapons ones, and that's mainly from funding my weapon addiction, or from increasing my standing with certain corporations, with an eye to the future and their particular ships.
Lastly, here's another observation. I like the idea of events in the game that affect the way the game is played, or re-enforce the feeling of nation or backstory. CtC has a 'real-life' effect in game, according to the wiki - the availability of weapons to the nations. Other things could be tied up like this too... the kills could be totalled by nation, and this could have a nation-based effect. Or total trade within a nation's borders, and so on.
Welcome to VO Priapus
Funny you should mention Warhead, I've got a Commodore Amiga 3000 right next to me. Only played Warhead once or twice (before the old girl gave up the ghost, right now I've got it's monitor hooked up to my current machine) but I see what you mean about Warhead's flight sim, it was quite addictive and fun to play.
Though take the advice of what everyone else is saying, VO is a lot like Space Kung-Fu. While it feels "funny" at first, (nonetheless expensive as well) it grows on you pretty quickly. Hope you have fun out there and we'll probably meet eatchother, as friends or foes has yet to be seen...
Funny you should mention Warhead, I've got a Commodore Amiga 3000 right next to me. Only played Warhead once or twice (before the old girl gave up the ghost, right now I've got it's monitor hooked up to my current machine) but I see what you mean about Warhead's flight sim, it was quite addictive and fun to play.
Though take the advice of what everyone else is saying, VO is a lot like Space Kung-Fu. While it feels "funny" at first, (nonetheless expensive as well) it grows on you pretty quickly. Hope you have fun out there and we'll probably meet eatchother, as friends or foes has yet to be seen...