I am hugely in favor of a smaller universe. In fact, I am also hugely in favor of ditching all this "realism" pretense and going with the much fakier but funner sort of universe you find in Star Wars KOTOR. Stop trying to organize everything into tidy solar systems and just have "places."

Functionally it would be the same sectors we have now with links between them, where each sector is simply "something interesting" -- a station, an asteroid field, a derelict ship...even a particularly strategic area of empty space could be "interesting."

This would allow the universe to grow organically and easily, because new sectors could be linked in anywhere. It would also allow for hidden sectors (you can only jump to sectors your navmap is programmed for) and hidden jumps (same thing: your navmap may not show a link between sector A and B but the pirate's map shows that link). It also preserves the national boundaries.

From a gameplay standpoint, there are only sectors anyway, and it gets rid of what is really an annoying distinction between intra-system warps and inter-system warps.

I think it would be a fun project to map out such a universe.

Heh heh, wylfing you just exactly described the alpha universe.

Yeah I was thinking that as I wrote it :) I'm imagining quite a bit more complex, but from a gameplay standpoint it makes a lot more sense.

keep the size. focus on content and functional code. K.I.S.S.

But wouldn't K.I.S.S. imply that you want the universe to be smaller, smaller would be simpler? Less travel time, less wormholes, less of everything.

I agree though, I'd rather they focus on getting whatever game developement software created that they need so that they can create more content to fill the space they already have, then to remove stuff.

I don't agree that shrinking the universe is the answer. I do agree that there should be more links between sectors. Trade and such can be adjusted to fit. A spiderweb of WH links between systems instead of the current one path loop would be much more fun.

-tm

lets all set traps in latos O12 and bractus whatever. let people in, but dont let them out!

muhahahahahaha!!

Hi. I agree that the universe is too big, and we should have launched with a smaller one. 20/20 hindsight.

We don't really have time to restructure the whole thing right now. It would be pretty involved, and sap a great deal of development time. Again, to recap, shrinking the universe is not a matter of just "reconnecting a few sectors in more interesting ways". There are lots of hooks to use it, like a whole base of code that uses the current number of sectors per system and so on.

So, we'll be keeping the big universe. Yes, it's too big, for now.

ok.

And there you have it folks. [locky-lock-lock]

NINNY!

(before the lock)

for all the 'lack of players' in this game i sure see a lot of forum comments. this place is as busy as slashdot.

please do not shrink the universe- i hope to see a red shift- and never a blue- :)
if i want interaction i can find it- if i want the lonliness of space--its always there-
as i type this i realize that i have nothing to fear- more people will come- and may i comment on that adding rare items or neat hidden things in this universe would be awesome-

-- I'm all for making the universe smaller. First of all, just because there are a few people that like to wander off on their own and never see another player... Go play a single player game or something, no offense. For those of you that would worry about it being too congested... I don't think that will be a problem if they axe half of the sectors.
-- Remember, that there are a lot of empty places within those sectors - the sectors themselves are quite large. I totally agree with adding more content depth to the game - thats a given. But it will be a heckuva lot easer to take advantage of that depth with a somewhat smaller universe.
-- Mining is a total bore. I have never ONCE had to compete with or fight someone over a mining spot. No hive ever attacked me. I never once had someone as a companion for mining. The same thing goes for most of the missions (largely due to early stages of mission development). The universe is just so freaking huge that 9/10ths of it are completely untouched! Yes, space is large... but that's why you can fly off in random directions within a sector and never hit an invisi-wall.
-- With such a large universe, who would ever want to find a hidden wormhole!?!? There's no reason to go looking for it. If the population ever gets so large, then new sectors are easily addable in expansions. Plus, that goes along with a developing story. Since players are so pressed for space, and want to create a larger universe, they start searching for new wormhole paths and find new habitable sectors! Supply and demand.
-- For those of you that want a larger universe - as crazy as it sounds, you can still keep that largeness whilst getting rid of sectors. It forces you to use more of the in-game areas. You'll find size that you didn't know was there! If you just add lots and lots of game depth into each sector now, with so few players... the game will completely turn into a single-player game. There would hardly ever be a reason to team up with other human players. Maybe it sounds crazy, but I think an MMORPG is a whole lot more fun if it promotes (maybe even forces) cooperation between players, not discourages it. It's up to the devs, but I really would like to see the game become something more than a single-player game with an integrated chat-room.

Actually, what I agree with most is what Incarnate hinted at: don't use developer time to restructure the universe. Please (PLEASE) deliver on some of the other stuff first. Holy heck do escort missions sound fun :)

I agree with jexkerome and mikmouse24 (Hmmm, I always thought it was "milkmouse" for some reason) on this. The size of the universe is just fine, thank you. (Sorry Incarnate!) There are plenty of opportunities for interaction (if you want it) and there are plenty of opportunities to be "lost in space" if you want to. I like
the (almost) solitude of the wide open spaces. About 80% of the time I turn off the
"chat." Too much "noise." And about 65% of the time I turn off the HUD completely.
For what I'm trying to accomplish with my characters, the size of the universe suits
me just fine. I truely hope that the universe will only expand in the future, along with "deeper" content. I've been playing for years, and I'm not gonna give up on
The Devs.

Thanks for the reply Inc,

I completely understand if its too much to do, I guess I sorta figured it was less complicated. I don't want to take your time away from making the galaxy that we have more interesting.

Won't hear anymore about this from me.

I agree that the galaxy is big (and no, I dont see it as the universe). But it's also one of the things that wowed me about a year ago when I joined.

Perhaps what we need for now is a more centralized meeting point than "B8" (eh, that sector needs not be named).

I was thinking of a lone sector grid somewhere in space where many (really many) WHs connect to. Think of it as the center of a spider web. From it, you can grab many lines and head off to a larger circle.

Yep. A noob pirate trap but we could enforce a no firing zone throughout and perhaps even shove 3 stations in there: one UIT, one Itani and one Serco. Far enough so Strike Forces dont fire at each other. Close enough to create a "safe bubble" for noobs and an outer rim that hosts various WH points.

I could see that becoming the home of many users of all levels.

And, you wouldn't have to change current trade routes and mission destination or anything like that. A sector that's accessible but otherwise not wired in the various game mechanics.

As to incarnates statement: "So, we'll be keeping the big universe. Yes, it's too big, for now."

I know there are billions of issues involved here, and lots of work to be done. More content, more immersion, more balance, scaling the gameplay et fuckin cetera, but what I really want to hear is a long term vision in regards to the business plan of VO. I think this would go a long way to determining the optimal size of the universe, both for current gameplay, and future expansions, and whether arguing about the size is even relevant!

There is a continuous reference by the devs to this big "when the game takes off". Namely, when there is enough of an advertising push to significantly increase the player base, and when this revenue allows guild to grow, development to increase, and the whole scale of the project to expand to fulfill the potential of this game we are all imagining. What is never referred to, is when in the business plan guild had hoped to achieve this, what in game goals they are working towards before they are confortable this can begin, and any concrete timeline of when such milestones are hoped to be reached.

Amongst other things, this was my reason for taking 6 months off VO. It seems stuck in this perpetual organic, word-of-mouth growth model, and the player base has remained static, if not in decline -- but with little idea of when this may change.

So in response, a long term indication of guild's plans for VO (posted to the devwiki), I think would greatly inspire the current user base, and give us all a good idea of where our own commitment to VO lies.

I also encourage opening the developent up to the community as much as is possible to really facilitate this snowball effect that many of us are envisioning.

I keep checking back to see how things are going, and will continue to do so. As always the community spirit is good, and guild seem as inspired as ever to make the greatest mmorpg ever, but a bit of clarification on this one issue, would place a lot of the current arguments, suggestions and discussions into a bit more context, and hopefully give a lot of the players a better idea of where they stand within this project.

Infinite Skillz

I agree. The dev wiki was created for this purpose of demonstrating our long-term goals and milestones, and giving the userbase a better understanding of what's going on. But, this hasn't happened yet, and it isn't going to happen in the next couple of weeks. I do not have time (more on that later).

My statement of "Yes, it's too big, for now" does not solely refer to the idea of "someday we will have more players". But also that the content we're trying to get working at present will have some bearing on the required scale of the universe. Points were made earlier in this thread that there is no threat to say.. a miner, no compelling reason for him/her to go further afield in search of their particular ore, or to value a place of particular safety with that ore. Let alone a reason for him to be mining anything in the first place. That is one of many things we're working to address. We have this universe, currenty big and empty and boring. We are working to make it less so.

And therein is the crux of Guild's Great Secret Business Plan. The very short version is "I want to tie the major features of the game together in a way that interrelates and builds a compelling purpose." I've made posts about this in relation to particular topics.. NPC traders that balance/effect the economy, for instance. Or the Hive bringing danger and competition to mining. Or in mining generating required resources for crafting, which then figures into the development/acquisition of capital ships and other special craft. But I haven't really stated all of it at once, and how it's going to take place. And, frankly, I'm not going to state it right now, I would be writing for a week and I can't do that at present.

I had hoped to be further along than we are at present. Various development hitches have pushed things back. The fundamental work we're still trying to get scalable enough to even *function* on the production server.. I had hoped to have some time ago. Originally, it was my plan that much of the groundwork would be done by November 1st, and this is apparently not going to happen. But, that's life, and if it doesn't happen, then we figure out what *will* and try to do that.

The short answer to the advertising time line, is that I won't push the game until I believe it has a Point. It is currently lacking a Point, and we're trying to engineer the system that will let us do that. Giving the game a Point is a nebulous topic, and covers a broad range of things, from "what does the Itani/Serco war really *mean*, how does one participate and how does it impact things?" to "why the hell am I mining?!"

So, right now, we're trying to get basic stuff done, like a manageable AI/npc/whatever subsystem that can handle a bunch of NPCs that actually do something valuable, like, you know.. TRADE. And, we're also completely redoing the UI, so that we'll be able to add things like.. a capital ship navigation interface, and 9 billion other interfaces for things we're trying to do. I don't know when this stuff is gonna work, or be done. It's a tenuous place I'm in, along with everyone else. So, right now, we're just trying to get it all working. And, that's what I'm gonna do. When we have the basics going enough to actually DO something more complex with it, then you'll see wiki design appearing, but probably not before. I'm busy elsewhere, and I have to prioritize.