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The B-8 Experience

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Sep 06, 2005 Starfisher link
It's hard to tell when people are dueling. It's not like they have a sign saying, "DUEL!" or they change color or anything. They're just two pilots fighting, like any other two pilots fighting. Engaging the bad guy may or may not interrupt a duel - who knows, maybe your ally got ambushed and is fighting for his life?

The burden should be on the duelists to protect themselves from interruption. Dueling in B8 is dumb, as you are bound to get interrupted. While I'm on the subject, complaining about "ganking" in the border patrol sector is dumb too. It's a designated combat sector FFS!

If you want to have an uniterrupted 1v1, jump away one square up and go at it. Tell anyone who wants to watch where you're going. Don't fight in the middle of a combat sector and then get pissed if I interrupt, since there's no way to tell and in a game about combat I'm not about to give up a massive advantage by politely PMing you about your status as a duelist.
Sep 06, 2005 Rhalmas link
As a follow-on to my previous posts, I am one that likes to "watch". I learn by watching. And I play in the same arena. And, I am one that believes in an honor code (Shape, you taught me that believe it or not). I abide by it, but by the same token I do not expect others to do the same. If I did, I would constantly be disappointed.

I do "ask" for fights, occasionally (and always seem to get them). I have also recently witnessed - and have been personally affected by - those that jump in, lob several of their favorite weaps (like swarms, or jacks, or sunnies - you name it) right in the middle of a pre-existing fight, and then run off while whining on 100 that they are being "ganked". Frankly, if the two fighters just interrupted decide to stop fighting each other and target the interrupter because of what they did, I think that is quite "fair" (and is actually in the rules for "formal" dueling).

Lately, this seems to be the case with more than one fighter and not always two "dueling" - I have seen it with groups of three or more "practicing". What I don't get is that the interrupter then complains that they are not allowed a one-on-one. I see "fairness" as a floating aspect of the situational terms by which the acts upon one another are perpetrated. You can only request what you deliver, in other words. And I say "request" instead of "expect" deliberately.

VO is a game of remarkable possibilities. Filled with a global community. Diversity among the players simply means there are both good, and bad - honorable, and dishonorable - young (immature), and old (mature).

I play because I have fun. Take a cheap kill on me, fine - I've learned something about you (and your skills), and I move on - no worries. Fight me one-on-one, I'll show you honor and respect (and I'll do my best to defeat you, and not whine if I lose - but rather respect you for your skills, and probably ask for pointers).

Starfisher - while there are no signs or indications that a "duel" is taking place, nothing prevents you from at least "looking" out your viewscreen. Maybe even sending a "hail" before you fire. I agree with you that "formal" duels in B-8 are "iffy", and to protect them the participants should hop out to another sector. But B-8 is just a good place to play because it is well known. There are enough free-for-all situations ingame to warrant cheap tactics, and cheap kills that it doesn't have to be a daily practice. But that is the way I feel about it. I understand that there are those of you that do not believe the way I do. And that is fine.

That's the way I see PvP in B-8, and elsewhere.

mikmouse24 started this thread just commenting on how he saw the actions of the participants on this very special evening, and he was pleased (and it seems, somewhat surprised). That is the topic of this thread. I have to agree with him. Watching fights in B-8 is quite fun, and a great experience. It makes one want to participate. Being "ganked" and harrassed, and cheaply killed does the opposite.
Sep 07, 2005 Starfisher link
The behaviour you are so charmed with is detrimental to the game in the long run. Right now there's 40 active players and everyone knows everyone - fine. I've tried to be honorable these past two years because I know or know of everyone who's fighting.

Not so if the game actually becomes a game instead of a paying post-beta. Especially since the purpose of the game is PvP - All I ever here is pirates saying "Gray space should be dangerous" and they go about doing their best to kill or extort traders. But apparently gray space shouldn't be dangerous when they don't want to be interrupted. It's honorable to terrorize traders to get money and kills, but not honorable to interrupt a duel.

What? The? Hell?

I'm just fed up with the constant two-faced crap about honor and ganking and dueling and this and that. Better everyone realize that this game is supposed to be about a war with combatants killing each other without mercy. Everyone sitting around tossing back drinks in B8 doesn't fit that mold at all, especially when they can write reams about how they're allowed to hunt down and kill people but if someone interrupts a duel or tries to gang up, it's "dishonorable".

Gray space is dangerous. The duelists are the main supporters of this assertion, except when it's dangerous for them. I really don't get that.

Bleag. I've been indoctrinated after two years of playing to feel bad if I am on the heavy side of a 2v1, but the game is clearly going in a direction where combat victory, not contradictory honor, is the key.

Rant off.

The closest game I can think of to this one is Planetside. Three factions at war with each other. Since that game has a real player base, you never really know anyone outside your nation, and very few inside it either. If you see an enemy, you kill him.

This game, if it ever gets enough people, will probably evolve along those same lines. If things keep going the way they're going, at least. Combat is paramount, and space is a dangerous place. There's a war on. The style of fighting Arolte so angered everyone with is pretty much what you're going to be doing if there's 500 people online, except in groups and you actually try to kill the target instead of annoy it.

The game's concept of honor and community is based around the fac that there simply aren't that many people on. If the game suceeds and gains a large player base, then many people will be on, ending the close knit community we have today.
Sep 07, 2005 Shapenaji link
Well, I do think Grey space should be dangerous.

But as you said, we have maybe 40 players online right now, and most know one-another.

We're just not at a point yet where we can really call anywhere "All-out war"

Occasionally, a war will start between guilds, but in that case, its an event, not a location. B8 is just a popular hangout spot.

The thing is, if you know the people involved, then interrupting what is CLEARLY a 1v1 (nobody is running/seems like a fair fight) is just going to create bad blood with someone in your community.

And even if you don't know the people involved, you certainly will afterward.

So yeah, I'm all for people having to find somewhere safe to fight, when we have a large player base, but until we do, people are going to fight where its convenient, and where they're likely
to run into other friends.
Sep 07, 2005 leapfrog link
Wow... Rhalmas took the words right out of my mouth... nicely put. I have to agree with him on most counts.

yeah, yeah... it's dangerous in grey... I get that (and one of the things that I, as a Viper, try to rectify). I also get the point that when the game gets bigger, the fur will fly more readily... and there will be less of a "community" (well, actually, I think *that* is when guild membership will mean *more* than it does today for most, and there will be a *lot* less guild-hopping, and the "communities" become the guild level).

What I *don't* get is Starfisher's statement that a honorable behavior is detrimental to the gameplay. In his/her context, it will actually make it worse to be honorable... Really? I admire those around me that stand up to adversity - and stick to their ethics, even under a less-than-perfect environment. Because the environment will change, it does not mean that *I* will have to change my interaction... I *may* have to fight more to survive... fight more to protect the innocent... but being "honorable" will not make the gameplay any less "effective"... on the contrary - I think it will enhance the gameplay.

I can only speak for myself - so the following comments reflect only *my* view (and not necessarily those of my guildmates)... but the Vipers are a close-knit "community" now - within the small-ish VO community as a whole. We've taken heat recently on being rather selective... We *used* to enjoy the "furballs" (using Alamar's verbage without permission - hope it's okay) with [BLAK] in greyspace, and elsewhere. We had some fantastic X vs X "fights"... and some of my most memorable times within the VO community were during these times getting splashed "over and over"... and learning. And, it was "honorable". How was that detrimental to the gameplay as a whole? We take heat all the time with the *new* group of pirates... lot's of name-calling and, well, lies screamed to the top of 100 to invoke reaction... we remain "honorable". How has that made the game worse? Here's the really *cool* part... my guild is supportive of me on two levels - ingame, and inRL. We've been through quite a bit together... and that is where the "community" is headed, IMHO. (and really, I *miss* those stinking furballs)

Confession time: I'm an "old fart"... twice the age of 90% of the playerbase (nicknamed "Dad" to Miharu). I'm here to have fun as well, and support the devs. When I stop having fun... I'm *still* gonna support the devs. Not a problem for me. I have a *full* life outside of VO... and getting more so by the moment. I would love nothing more than to have 500, or 1000 players online and going at it constantly. But that is *not* going to change *my* gameplay... and I expect to have *just* as much fun... (and... Shape, you influenced me too... you're a great teacher. Thank you.)

I understand that the actual topic for this thread is the "one special night" that B-8 was "honorable" (I'm sorry I missed it)... and I think *that* says more *for* the experience and enhancement for the gameplay in and of itself...

I release the floor for further discussion...

Seta, of the clan Ralel
Council, the Vipers
Sep 07, 2005 leapfrog link
Oh... and I did say "most"... what the heck does: "I see "fairness" as a floating aspect of the situational terms by which the acts upon one another are perpetrated." mean? (waves his hand over his head)... okay... you tried to simplify by saying: "You can only request what you deliver, in other words."... but man... do you really mean:

"what goes around, comes around?"

[edit] and please see me ingame... I think I would like to discuss your future... :)
Sep 08, 2005 Starfisher link
If this is a game with 400 people online, the "honor" we have now goes away. That's why I said "detrimental in the long term" Right now it sort of works, though with the contradictions, two-facedness and hypocrisy I mentioned. The "new" pirates are the same as every other pirate that has ever existed - the constant ego wars, the constant cries of gank or run or what have you. Maybe some of you guys have risen above that. That would be cool.

But the fact of the matter is that with a substantial number of people online, grey space "honor" will become irritating and irrelevant. Instead of it only applying to PvPers when they want it to apply, it simply won't apply. If I'm Serco, I simply won't know you as an Itani. If I'm Serco, I probably won't know you as a Serco! The only "honor" will be internal, directed at my close group of friends - allies. Everyone else is just a red dot on the radar screen. Since showing "honor" to that red dot will get you killed, "honor" will go away.

Don't get me wrong. It would be cool if everyone actually played by the honorable rules they invented before they broke them. I've just never seen anyone stick to it. This is a combat game depicting nations at war, and it begs to be played as such.

(I suppose what we really need is an Icarus to come in an demonstrate what I mean...)

Anyway, yeah. If you actually only engage people - both PvPer and trader - when they want to be engaged, congratulations. I've personally never seen anyone who acted like that, because it violates everyone's expectations of this game not turning into a carebear-a-thon, but if you do exist, good for you.
Sep 08, 2005 Sun Tzu link
I'll be less diplomatic and say that this so-called "honor" is BS.

It just tends to turn Vendetta-Online into a sort of medieval joust but you are not riding horses and using lances and there is no Marianne to kiss you if you win. And since there is no referee it just adds fuel to the after-battle stupid smack talk ("you were lagging AND you attacked without warning").

It is ok if limited to a playground - like B8 - but then why not have a sort of simulator as many proposed where you don't have any chance to be interrupted or have 3 systems to jump to get your favorite vult or valk.

Also many guys who ask honor from their opponents will happily blow them up in various circumstances with the excuse of role-playing ("sorry but you were trading and i'm a pirate" or "sorry but you are serco, close to our CtC route and, yes, you were in a bus but obviously about to get a battleship"). Which is btw exactly what the "warriors with honor" of the ancient times were doing.

Or is it bushido-online?

P.S. Honor is an element of role-playing, not a pre-requisite for playing. If it makes you feel better to fight with honor, fine; who doesn't feel that way? Why then bitch again and again about those who do not play the same manner?
Sep 08, 2005 johnhawl218 link
Agreed with Starfisher and SunTzu here. I'm just shocked there are others that feel the same way. =)
Sep 08, 2005 JestatisBess link
I think most of us newer players feel the same way. Older alpha/beta players are used to "honor". There were rules for PvP then it seems. But not anymore with the influx of new players. and I personally don't mind. grey space and B8 are supposed to be dangrous. Do what you want and be happy with your playing style.
Sep 08, 2005 yodaofborg link
There was honour in Alpha? Since when? heh

Two points i'd like to make. 1) Honour is in the eye of the beholder, everyone has there own take on what it means. 2) In RL, if you do something I dont like, I will tell you, if you do something stupid, I may even insult you, heh, dont expect me not to do this ingame. If someone swarms me in the ass while im already in another fight, I will cry about it, and call the person lame ect. This doesnt mean I expect them to stop, its just me sounding off (and i try to avoid ever taking it to the personal level) so saying *If it makes you feel better to fight with honor, fine; who doesn't feel that way? Why then bitch again and again about those who do not play the same manner?* is kinda a moot point, I will sound off, just like the guy with swarms could come back and do it again.
Sep 08, 2005 LeberMac link
GAHHHHHH!!!! OK, That's IT! I told you all what would happen if this turned into another "HONOR" thread! You were warned!!!

/me gouges own eyes out with sporks!

Ow!
Sep 08, 2005 Sun Tzu link
Sep 08, 2005 Hoax link
No JestatisBess, not even close. Alpha had no rules, it was hard to even dock/undock at times without eating an avalon. In fact Rene was about the only Alpha preaching carebarism that I recall. My memory is foggy though.

Anyway I'm in the Starfisher, Sun, John camp on this one. Although I currently stick to the honor conventions for the reasons Shape states.

Just my preffered style follows don't read too much into it, I don't have any problem with anyone playing or anyones playing style

I hate it but the honor bullies will take their ball and leave if you don't buy into the boring one vs. one no ganking rules. I'll take 1 vs 1 over 1 vs 0.

Please if you see me in b-8 and are so inclined ... shoot me. If I'm fighting someone else go ahead and shoot me. If I'm sitting there watching a fight shoot me. If there's 10 of you and you don't like VPR then all 10 of you should shoot me. I'll remember who you are and return the favor and we'll all have fun. I might call you a punk on 100 but that's RP, I'll /msg you GF and come back to the sector looking for revenge.

If you run out of rockets after shooting at me then go ahead and run away if you want. I'd rather chase you then shoot you while you honorably stand still and take your lumps.

Group fights are so much fun but a guildmate can't even jump in to help a fellow guildy without being called a ganker on 100. Or getting some kind of signed permision slip first. You know what? If you see 3 people in a sector in the same guild what do you expect to happen when you fight one of them? I would hope to suffer the same.

This game needs bad guys. Too many pirates act just like Vipers. We need gankers to chase, people who kill traders and run from the police, not guys in pirate suites and fake eye-patches hanging out looking for a duel. Why would I even want to shoot them?
Sep 08, 2005 Lord Q link
the trouble with honor is it limits fun. i'm, probably one of the closest to the "honwrable" polayers you're likely to finde. I rarely begin a fight, and even when i do start it i usualy hail and or fire a warning shot first. But in a war5 scenario (BP or the player run war scenarios) i don't bother warning my targets, by being in the area at that time they forefit any claim to being a "peacefull traveler". But i will say that i don't expecte everyone else to have the same opinions about honor that i do. in fact if they did then i'd have to be the "bad guy" to have any fun because no one would ever attack anyone except in duels and massive war scenarios.

in short honor is good, but don't get upset if somone else is dishonorable. it hapens. Even the Samuri were runners when actualy in war. there are several field logs that read something to the effect of "we engaged, but we started taking casualties so we retreated". it wasn't untill the piecetime after the wars that the whole death before dishonor, and sebuku thing came around.

so basicly think of it this way: "don't be a dick" if somone is actualy pissed off about your tactics leve them alone and finde somone els to attack. and if somone pisses you off remember "don't get mad, don't get even, get ahead"
Sep 08, 2005 leapfrog link
I actually think we all are on the same page, and not sure I was clear... this isn't (shouldn't be) an "honor" thread... I was just describing how I play... and discussing the point that Starfisher brought up (that honor is detrimental to gameplay)... How I play shouldn't affect how anyone else plays (and my practices are how I find enjoyment in the game - I *like* being a good guy)... Everyone has his/her own way of playing, and I was *not* saying everyone should play honorably... and I definitely don't expect that. It's your game too... play how you want to play. There *will* always be bad guys... and that is a *good* thing (I agree with you Hoax).

Hehe... let the battles continue.
Sep 08, 2005 moldyman link
Honor is no fun. It's a good thing to have though. Adiitionaly, a battle won with honor can equal ten battles won without. Besids, if you fight honorably you learn more about yourself, the people around you and the many tons of equipment, metal and weapons that sorround your character in that cockpit.
Sep 09, 2005 mikmouse24 link
YES!!!
this is friggin awesome
it seems everyone is comin around - and realizing that YOUR STYLE = YOUR STYLE, let me quote lord Q who jsut summed up this whole thread
""in short honor is good, but don't get upset if somone else is dishonorable.....
....so basicly think of it this way: "don't be a dick" if somone is actualy pissed off about your tactics leve them alone and finde somone els to attack. and if somone pisses you off remember "don't get mad, don't get even, get ahead""
--F yeah!
so i started this thred becuase i saw some Etiquette (sp?) that night in B- 8, and let me tell you each time i log on- i expect the GAnkings, the smack talk, the pissed people (and serco)- and i will always watch my back- this is space- TECHNICALLY - there are no rules--right?- and the ones that exist are enforced by MR. SF- beyond that- you can do whatever you want-
--and even though i know that people think that it is very PVP geared- you are a bit skewed- because that is what YOU do- waht about all of us that dont do that all the time?- we still have fun- :)
--moral of the story-
how you choose to VO is your choice- if someone is SOOO pissed that they wont be able to sleep at night- well- maybe see a doctor or a counselor (even though i have dreampt of battles late at night i admit) otherwise- the red dot= 'shoot them down' or 'RUN' to me.
--added note-- this game will grow- and how we play now determines our future
Sep 09, 2005 yodaofborg link
*This game needs bad guys. Too many pirates act just like Vipers. We need gankers to chase, people who kill traders and run from the police*

Show me a trader/miner, i'll try to kill him, Border patrol killed both :P

Only those who cannot Bp are being left in the dust, until they fix it, well, there isnt any traders anymore, except for those die hard few who already know by themselfs how to deal with a pirate.

VPR is defunct because pirates are a lie. Ask 0, im sure he feels the same way.
Sep 09, 2005 genka link
I know I do.
Pirates have been a lie ever since the infini-boost thing was implemented. Mining was just over-kill.