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We're all coming back!

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Aug 14, 2005 terjekv link
if the sympthom makes you unable to do your normal day-to-day stuff, you also take something to fix that.

however, "adapt" and "tolerate" aren't going to make people pay money to play a game. this isn't free anymore, and the game has changed since beta. and if someone is clearly distruptive, you take measures, no matter *how* the person achieves that goal.
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
I'm very saddened by this result, but I understand your frustration and accept your decisions. Making a game where PVP is *always* possible was a pretty significant and difficult goal to begin with, but one that I firmly believe is worth pursuing. As far as I am aware, we are the only MMO in existence where this is true (we have areas of increased safety, but nowhere that is completely safe). Full PVP is a tenet of the game I am absolutely unwilling to abandon, despite the fact that it has resulted in player behaviour that I do not condone. It was for this very purpose that I originally put the strikeforce-backed No-Fire Zones in the game, which have more recently become so reviled (ironic).

I am currently willing to see the targeting/killing of one person over and over again as a form of harassment, and deal with it as such, which I had hoped might resolve some of this, but perhaps not in any case. Unfortunately, I cannot make a hard/fast rule about it, as then any two people who fight each other, the loser can eventually complain about "abuse" for the sake of getting back at the other. Sufficient complaints have surfaced about Arolte that I think it's reasonable to ask him to change targets after a kill or two.

Those who seem most incensed about this activity have not really presented me with any great suggestions either. I cannot simply ban people for shooting each other, that goes against the very concept of the game. You recently petitioned to have the *mute* reinstated. What good does that do? So what if he can't talk or post, isn't him shooting and killing you the problem that's causing so much woe? Why is muting even relevant?! It seems as though people have become angered about this to the point where they're willing to abandon logic in search of some form of vengeance against a specific person. I have no interest in that, I only want to Solve The Problem, and I do not believe the Problem to be Arolte.. he is simply a symptom thereof. For that matter, I think we're lucky to only have one of him, and not 50. He's demonstrating the flaws "early", and forcing me to come up with a solution now. For those of you who are willing to wait for me to come up with a solution, I thank you for your patience, for those who aren't.. I am very sorry for your frustration and to see you leave.

Many of you are vets with whom I'm even personally amicable (Andreas, et al), and I will miss you guys on a personal level. Many of you have been around through issues like this in the past, where I have also been unwilling to sacrifice the tenets of PVP combat to appease an aggravated section of our game's population, and we have lost users because of it before. Given that many of you have espoused great support of our PVP model, I find this volatile reaction a little illogical.

Vendetta Online is a user supported game. You paid to keep us in business, you help us design and tune the game, we make every effort to try and keep you involved and communicate with you as much as we can. The very first page of the online manual says:

"So, if something about the game makes you unhappy, come up with a way to solve it, and post it."

And yet, no one has offered anything that I have seen (have I missed it? if so please point it out to me). If you want me to come up with something, then fine, you need to give me time and have faith that I will. If you no longer have any faith in my willingness or ability to address issues important to you, then perhaps it is time for you to move on, and I'm very sorry to see that come to pass.

Users in the past have become frustrated at what they perceived to be developmental stagnancy, and I have always been sorry to see this happen. Guild, like any group of people with a goal who love what they do.. we just.. do the best we can with what we have. I wish you all the best, and I thank you for supporting us for as long as you have and sharing the game with us. Take care, and I hope we see you again someday.
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
We didn't remove /vote mute. At least as far as I'm aware? We just fixed it so it resets on successful muting. If you really want to vote to mute him again, you can (at least, as far as I know? Unless another dev disabled it).

And yes, the original mute was orchestrated by BLAK, and succeeded in part because of people logging on on additional accounts (we looked in the logs). I don't disagree with their reasons for doing it at all, but it does demonstrate exactly the sort of abuse scenario that concerns me with a theoretically democratic system (although it is one that I'd like to move towards... I'd rather the users dealt with problems on their own, instead of depending on a Guide or Dev, I just have to figure out how to avoid flaws like this).

In any case, as I just said in the previous message, I *am* going to talk to Arolte (and, for the record, I did already request that he tone it down a few weeks ago). But I'm sure this is too little too late. Regardless, I don't think this response by the users is really justified or constructive. Saying "we're all leaving!@#" doesn't help me, and no one is offering any real suggestions. Anyone who thinks banning arolte will solve the problem isn't thinking very clearly. I even requested that people email me their complaints directly, so I could get that much more of a picture of what's going on. But, again, we still just see more messageboard threads (I did receive ONE email since the post, and I appreciate that one).

Public drama doesn't help anyone, least of all the community. Email me exactly what you think, and I will do something. I am the only person who can.
Aug 14, 2005 softy2 link
(FM, ctishman, arolte : stay out)

Dear Incarnate and Guildsoftware,

This will be my last post in this game. I have cancelled my subscription and deleted all my characters.

I wish I can say I understand your notion that a griefer is acceptable as long as it is within the *broken* rules of the game, but frankly, I could not fathom such a decision.

You have conceded as much Arolte has shown a design *flaw* in the game. I believe the word "exploiter" is used for people who make use of flaws. The most insidious kind of exploiter is one who exploit to ruin the fun of others.

You are right that Arolte is a sympton of the problem. But you agree with us that this is a problem, and ask us for suggestions. Our suggestion as far as I can tell from the myriad of posts, is simply to

"Publicly tell griefers do not use flaws in the game to ruin others' fun."

Instead, you *defended* his actions as "within the context of the game". I assure you that you are encouraging him, and people like him. I cannot express how incredulous when I read yours, and FM's many posts that defended such actions.

I believe I speak on behalf of my friends here when I say that we have cared about this game, and sought to contribute to it in the ways we could, by organizing events, helping new players, and generally try to create a fun environment for others to enjoy this game.

However, we cannot help but feel *betrayed* by your decisions to defend the actions of a griefer, as "within the context of the game". It is not easy for us to walk away, after we have spend time creating and nurturing our alts (and in Alamar/terjekv's case, his BLAK hive code). I hope you understand how sad and frustrated we are, NOT towards Arolte, but towards Guild software.

Having said that, personally I bear no ill will towards you. It is after all a game, it is just a game that I no longer have the confidence that it will be enjoyable for me. I hope the reasons are as clear as day.

softy2/CCB
Aug 14, 2005 Shapenaji link
Incarnate, I feel for you dude, but

as FM has often said, (paraphrased) if you're frustrated, don't play.

Full PvP is a Great idea, but the formal tenet of this game is "BE NICE", and when people go too far (I think the community has come out overwhelmingly in favor of taking some action against Arolte)
Sometimes you need to step in.

It's a great idea to have a self-regulating system, but the reason why we're not coming up with suggestions, is because most of us believe that an ingame mechanic will necessarily be flawed.

Sometimes what a problem really needs is not a mechanism, but a clear head, and that I expect from either you, or the guides, etc..

when it is clear that someone is continuously acting outside of the spirit of the game (Ask yourself incarnate, what are Arolte's tactics designed to achieve, if not making players log off?), then some of these guides should maybe step in and say "this isn't cool".

I understand the argument: "when this game is bigger, that won't work", but I respectfully disagree, if its clear that that sort of thing is not acceptable, people will be far less likely to do it.

As it is now, you have made it clear that this behavior IS acceptable.

As an example: If every child in a class acted up, the teacher would have no recourse, but by giving each child reasonable expectations, most will fall in line. And those who don't are kept from being too disruptive to the rest of the class.

Arolte doesn't keep me from playing, but he does disperse fights in the universe, people are unable to get together and build things while he's around. Moreover, we have to listen to his constant posturing. But we're not allowed to mute him. Even though his voice is more offensive than any 4 letter word.

So you've made clear that we have no power over him... so we're trying to exert what power we have over you.
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
Softy:

No, I've already said I'm going to deal with the Arolte situation personally. As far as other contextual issue, yes, I think it is viable to come up with an in-context solution.

Very sorry to see you go, thanks for the support over the years.
Aug 14, 2005 Spellcast link
Incarnate: part of the solution (or a discussion about part of the solution) lies in the thread titled "One death is never enough." in the suggestions forum, which uncledave was kind enough to start.

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11195

And as for the NFZ being a problem, its not the NFZ thats causing the ruckus.. its the fact that if youkill while IN the NFZ the temporary standing hit is all you get, even if your target is +999 with the faction who's station the NFZ is around. Instead of being cumulative (you loose 500 faction points for killing an +999 admired player -AND- your standing is also temporarily set to KOS until you leave and return, when it will reset to your new 500 point lower permanant standing) its only the NFZ penalty that is being applied.

Softy.
I didnt read his post as a defense of arolte's actions. I read it as a refusal to allow your reactions to dictate his choices.

PvP being open and free is the design of the game. the flaw is that there aren't game appropriate penalties for certain bahavior types and areas you can go to escape the worst of such actions, and that hit and run annoyance tactics are far too effective because escaping is FAR FAR FAR too easy.
( for a solution to that see andreas's post about "how to fix running", also in suggestion forum Incarnate)
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
Here's a novel idea:

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11200#131578

And, for the record, this makes a clear case for a system to deal with *this specific scenario*. As opposed to vote mute, which can be done to anyone, anytime without recourse and really isn't meant to deal with the situation at hand at all.

It's nice to say how things are "outside the spirit of the game", etc etc. But suggestions are much easier to implement than vague philisophical statements.

As for the other thread relating to more value to death, I couldn't agree more, which is why I'm restructuring the economy. At least, that was part of the reason. Or why I would be if I weren't constantly posting on the messageboard today instead.
Aug 14, 2005 Spellcast link
your posting today might just be more important short term than the economy incarnate. feedback, disccussion and other interaction with the devs is a big part of what keeps a lot of us here, and right now with emotions running so high it's good that you are letting us know you ARE at least reading the concerns.
Aug 14, 2005 Black Omega link
Sounds like a reasonable / sensible idea, if your being greifed it should work fine.

If i keep getting killed by people in ctc situations, its just a matter of common sense to not to start submitting abuse warnings. You should expext to be shot at in certain situations.
Aug 14, 2005 Screwball link
My post should probably be moved to the Suggestions board, but it does suggest several ideas to help solve the situation at hand.

See: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/11197
Aug 14, 2005 Shapenaji link
For Clarification:

its not a vague philosophical idea.

If the actions a person is taking are designed to make players log off,

such as by playing the gadfly, firing, then running so that the player can't fight back, (I don't even know where Arolte GETS his kills, perhaps there are a lot of afk players on)

then that's not in the spirit of the game, since the last thing we want as a playerbase is to see people log off.
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
A lot of people log off and are frustrated by piracy. Should I ban that? People log off when people kill them for any reason. Losing duels. Should that be banned?

"Vague philisophical ideas" are when people say something that isn't quantifyable in any useful way to try and improve the game. Yes, I already know that Arolte is a dick. I have never condoned that he is a dick, but I have more trouble with what to do about it, because.. well, the reasons should be pretty obvious by now. So anyway, suggestions and constructive criticism are much more useful than people being melodramatic and leaving. I haven't been uninvolved at all, and I'm offended that people think so. I'm sorry my message last night was apparently so widely misinterpreted (I should have written it more simply "email me with complaints, working on a solution, please post suggestions"), but at least some people seem to grasp that this isn't something that I can just.. ban people for. "Ban the griefers". Well, what's a griefer? Is it someone who kills people? Isn't the point of the game to kill people? Instead of complaining, if people could make a suggestion.. like "if someone kills me more than 3 times in an hour" or whatever.. I mean, that's about a million times more useful. That's why I *asked* for suggestions, why I *asked* for personal contact from people who were affected. And instead I get up today and everyone is leaving instead. Forgive me if I find that both a little bizarre and frustrating.
Aug 14, 2005 terjekv link
another thing, it's not about being killed, it's about being nicked and harrased, so you're unable to function in the game. dying is irrelevant in that regards, what matters is if I can actually go about and *play*. if I can't, it doesn't matter if it's because I die or space monkeys steal my ship, or because someone nicks me to 60% and makes me dock.

I repeat myself, but this is why I keep saying it's a social problem that's *extremly hard* or even impossible to solve in the general case with technical solutions. and once the technical solutions fail, a fallback is needed, and it has to be understood to be there.
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
But it doesn't matter whether it's dying or anything else. Any problem has to be quantified to create a solution, whether it's something that can be implemented in-game, or implemented as an administrative "law". I cannot say "griefing is bad", because frankly, I'm not really sure what griefing is. If we want to create a fallback for a social issue, I think that's fine, but suggestions (and communication, in the form of people EMAILING ME) are required in order to bring any of that about. Taking your ball and going home doesn't solve anything, and doesn't communicate your issues or points of view to me.
Aug 14, 2005 andreas link
For emphasis I will state it again: I really don't care about Arolte. I don't remember that he actually ever even HIT me, so your abuse warning system won't fix the problem.

What bothers me is that he uses exploits to run away from a fight he started. He hops between WH, fights outside 3k and then jumps, runs into NFZ, exploits the lmine bug, tries to trick noobs into loosing faction status etc. The problems (amongst others) persist for at least 6 month and they just don't get fixed. The rules of conduct do not disallow it. We are neither capable nor allowed to do something about it ourselves (see mute discussion). That really leaves us only one option ...

List of things to be fixed so Arolte is no longer a problem:
- Remove friendly fire protection.
- Prevent WH hopping.
- Introduce sector jump timer to prevent escape.
- Rethink faction system.
- Introduce a "faction complaint" system. If someone with high Itani standing gets killed, he can file acomplaint and the offender looses standing with the faction (anywhere).
Aug 14, 2005 incarnate link
Well, honestly, that's the first I've really heard of it. All previous complaints (including all the emails I've received to date) have simply been about him killing people. If problems like that are being exploited, we usually try and fix them more quickly, and could also bring more administrative power to bear. This is the sort of thing that is more useful to hear than "he is griefing and killing me".
Aug 14, 2005 andreas link
I was just killed twice in a row by someone in B8 and I had lots of fun. Getting killed is not what people complain about. Arolte picks on people, beats up noobs, and then runs like a chicken, using every exploit available to escape. THATs what is bothering people. And there is little hope on the horizon that it gets ever fixed. THATs why people leave. :-(

PS: I have about 900 PKs and probably as many deaths. Do I look like someone who complains about PKs or deaths?
Aug 14, 2005 Shapenaji link
No it's never been about him killing us, we don't mind that. As terjekv said, its about the constant harassment with harassment, not a pk, as its aim.

And as far as piracy, the goal of it is not to make the other player log. A player may log in frustration after a lost duel.

But these things are not designed to make a player stop playing. Arolte's behavior is specifically tailored to that exact goal. It's the intent that makes it a crime.
Aug 14, 2005 Screwball link
I think removing friendly fire protection is a great idea. It has no basis even in sci-fi, and it solves a lot of problems in multiplayer combat.