I just ran through a huge mission defending the miners of the TGFT Mining Expedition (thanks to Oblivion) and I put the Warthog TD through some real tests. The TD did a kickass job of keeping Valk pirates away. The lighter Valk still had better acceleration for dogfighting, so it did fairly better in dodging and escaping. But the TD's top speed really helped it get out of sticky situations, as long as enough energy was set aside to go a fair distance. So I have to say I'm impressed. I thought the Warthog would've gotten pummeled in front of a Valk. But it can actually hold its own now. The UIT now has a ship of its own that can actually defend its traders and miners.

/me does a golf clap

I know you're probably all sick of hearing about the Warthog. Aside from my obsession about the ship, it is also the boldest change the devs have ever made in ship tweaking. Like fazaaad said, it's a step in the right direction in making each ship truly UNIQUE. I think the Warthog TD hits it perfectly. But some of the other ships could use some tweaking to promote that sense of uniqueness. So let's hope the next balance update focuses more on that, rather than nerfing down any of the changes we have now. Because that would mean going back to square one, where all the ships would feel the same, with only slight alterations in mass and thrust (Zzz..).

Right now I'm working my ass off to raise my trade levels up, so I can gain access to a Marauder and see just how it handles. I'm hoping to use one for the next TGTF Mining Expedition. I'll see how well of a miner, transporter, and defender it makes with the regular dangers of bots and pirates present. I've looked over its stats and it seems to be a mixed bag. I mean it has no unique identity. It has the potential to be a pirating/CtC vessel, a trade ship, AND a mining vessel. But there's always some setback. It LOOKS like a multi-purpose ship, but is it really? I intend to find out. And I encourage others to test the hell out of it too, rather than just talking about it.

You can't mine in a Maud, you'll have to use S-beams or the Tung Maud. But, you want two L-beams anyway so nevermind mining with the Maud.

Trading? You'll use the Behemoth. Really. You'll carry twice (or more) of the cargo and it's not that much worse to fly when loaded. Accelleration feels better in the Behemoth with a heavy load, and that's when you're carrying twice the crap.

Combat? You're a huge target with some armor and not enough thrust do really dodge well. You have three S-ports, which is good, but you haven't really got a lot to work with. Against all fighters, you have to rely on hitting hard or doing energy spam to keep enemies at bay.

And as a jack-of-all-trades? Why? You get faction easily enough that getting the best ship for the job is a simple job anyway. Besides, you can't fight with a loaded Maud, and you can't fight with a mining Maud either. In VO, we don't use jack-of-all-trades ships much at all, you go for the extreme all the time. And you do that to survive.

And yes. I've flown Mauds. I've flown them quite a lot in many scenarios (PVP / Botting / Trade), and even the old (pre armor nerf) where ships to avoid unless you had more guts than I.

fazaad there where quite a lot of people in mauds pre nerf that were fearsome with it :D.

anyway cripppled I was talking about the valk..., seems your post slipped in between mine :D

Most of the people who were scary in Mauds were scary in just about any ship. IMO the Maud was OK, but by no means excellent. If I were to say it needed any change at all, it would have been to improve it, not to decrease its armor.

it was durable and pretty nasty with rockets. It could dismember a vult or an ibg, the vult took a bit longer though. Ibg just took 2 tripple flare shots, which where doable on any average joe.

But like i said, the valk blows that away, although... the extra armour made it still possible to survive for the maud.

Although i agree, the maud didn't really need a hit to armour, but was in dire need of a turbothrust increase. Although on the other hand a medium with 16.5k hull... mmmhhh

If you get hit by rockets from a Maud while in an IBG, you'd get hit by rockets from just about anything. Rockets make most things fearsome if you're not paying attention.

But that does not make the Maud a good fighter. I makes the Maud a possible fighter. If you get a triple flare hit off, you might pull it off. But, put that pilot in a dual flare Vult or a tri-flare Valk, and see what the Maud was worth. And in a multi? Maud is complete fodder.

Mauds were used because people liked them. Not because they were good.

I think the Mauds need to be differentiated better. Make some of them really great light traders. I have no idea on how to do that with todays system though, anything with thrust to move cargo becomes a fighter when armed and empty. Make some Mauds better fighters by adding armor and reducing cargo. Maybe make the Corvus Maud a possible pirate ship by cutting drain to 55 and increasing turbo thrust, maybe tuning down spin torque a bit?

Granted I don't think the maud's armor needed to be nerfed at all, but here's a concept:

What if, instead of buffing the maud, we nerfed the Behemoth's top speed so that it was a *sitting duck* without an escort. (say to 160 m/s) Anything capable of hauling 120 cargo shouldn't be able to cart it around the most dangerous areas of the galaxy with impunity.

Then I think the Maud would fall into its role nicely as a quick, light transport that could take care of itself in a pinch.

Apart from all the screams from traders, I love the idea. Let me get my earplugs.

I remember kicking nikis flarevult with my tripple flare maud. (happened only once, but im still proud on it). I did the same to yodas little valky :D. All that kept me alive to do that was the extra armour though.

Mmmhhh, so many people get hit rom rockets because they ar enot paying attention? Normally from all my shots i hit with at least 2 trippleshots. Unless they play the potshot game, then it goes down to maybe 1.

It still got 1 problem, even at 170 the behe is still a sitting duck. Not to mention that at 160, it will be death always in a storm, even with escorts... just look at the ctc transports.

Still it would not solve the problem of the marauder being a crappy ship while loaded... And in stead of behes and mauds oull only see centaurs. So in stead of creating more diversity, you are going to accomplish the opposite effect.

I still think we should add a loadinglimit before cargo will have any influence. without making it uber in fightingterms.

Two thoughts about improving the marauder:

- generalize the Tung engine (different thrust between normal and turbo); this would bring them closer to par with big ships like centaurs when hauling cargo and not transform them into deadly flare platforms when unloaded;

- increase the spin torque to bring them closer to valks or warthogs when it comes to turning; they would remain average dodgers, but a bit more agile than current.

EDIT re Behemoth top speed: in a Tung maud fully loaded capped at 180m/s you laugh at hive bots in any storm, I suspect a behemoth can afford a lower speed with 40000 hull points. And against players, remember it has two L ports that can prove toxic.

sunny, 160 or 180 is a huge difference (and i was proposing the middleground). And as our good friend the friendly pirate yoda stated, 160 is cannonfodder, 170 is it might get away, 180 is good chances at gettign away, 190 is byebye suckar.

So in my opinion, if you are a better pilot then your opponent, then you should get away. And 170 doesn't impede you on that.

Why it seeemed to me like being a reasonable speed? Although i liek my traderspeed at 190 :(

On top of the speed change for Behemoths, what about small mine launchers that require multiple ports? For instance, a small prox mine launcher that carries 4 mines and requires 2s ports. That'd give traders something to use to discourage pirates, but would make it relatively useless for combat fighters simply because of the number of ports it takes up?

It was more that if you get hit in an IBG but survive in a Valk, you're doing something wrong. :-D

Renegade, the Behemoth *should* be pirate fodder.

The Behemoth is a bulk freighter that should only be safe in well policed systems, something you would think twice about taking into grey space.

Why? Because it can haul 120 cargo, it can gain you 800 faction in 4 runs, and nerfing it would make the Marauder useful. Why do we have this impression that all ships should be kick ass in combat? Why can't we have some ships that are sitting ducks, but can pay off big time if you're willing to take a gamble on a trade run?

And with infiniturbo I'm not convinced that 160 m/s would make the Behemoth a pinata. Remember the effecient engine/fast charge combo? Are you going to tell me that was a death trap? A lot of traders used it if I recall. Also, remember the behemoth has something like 45k hull.

I guess 170 m/s would be a start but.... it just doesn't make sense to me that the one bulk frieghter we have is also an unstoppable juggernaut.

I totally agree with Phaserlight.

no it should not be pirate fodder. It should have a small chance at getting away if flown by a better pilot. And as yoda said, that is what infiniboost at 170 does. Not to mention that I never said that the ship needs to go from 0 to 170 in 0.1 second... I would be ok if it takes a long while to reach this top speed. But saying something has to be pirate fodder... heck no.

Since if anything is pirate fodder then you can just as well nerf it or delete it, then i will just not fly nor buy it, and that is it. I would just go and take longer over the same mission by hauling in a centaur or anoy other somewhat high successrate ships in advance. And if that is impossible, then faction can be damned in my opinion.

And I'm sure many people think in the same way. i'm up to improving ships and giving more options, but taking an option away in which skill might play a role is in my opinion a nono (not that i would get away in one, got problems enough already getting away in one while i can go 190).

I don't want to resee the days where you had 3 pirates for every damned trader... just because that was easier and more 'fun' then spedning some time going from x to y.

Behemoth is no where near "bulk trader". All our ships are still classified pretty much as small ships. I'd say, the Behemoth should barely escape from 2 pirates with barely any armor left. The maud needs to be more distinct from the centaur. The maud is supposed to be the ultimate cargo ship. No, that doesn't mean lots and lots of room, it means the most cargo you can get while still being able to get out of trouble. I'd like centaur to see be dropped from the fighting field yet not able to do as well as a maud. Rags are supposed to be the heavy combat fighters.

Speaking of that multismall port idea, how about if you can load a small port with extra ammo for a large port weapon? It would certainly be quite useful for a mining maud to have 6 l mines instead of 4 and some gun they wont use.

It still can haul more than twice the cargo of any other ship, and has more than twice the hull of any other ship. That has to come with some tradeoffs. Right now there's no reason to be trading in anything other than a Behemoth if you have the license levels.

Renegade: I guess we disagree about what "skill" means. If you think skill means maneuvering in combat, then you're right, a 160 m/s behemoth would not take skill. If skill means planning your route ahead of time, weighing the risks versus the rewards, perhaps hiring a player escort or two, then a 160 m/s Behemoth would take much more skill to use.

I think it's more fun to fall into an ion storm and think "oh crap, am I gonna make it out of this with my cargo?" as opposed to *yawn* hit the turbo...

It deos come with some tradeoffs, it is very slow (compared with the other ships), it is huge. it should require better licences however (more something along the lines of 11 - 13 trade).

Not to mention that before the behemoth, there was absolutely no reason to trade in anything but a centaur. And before that in anything but a marauder. At least now you still got a choice. And with the adjustment that I propose there is still a choise left in stead of people dismissing it as well if I take it out, there is a huge chance ill loose it to the first pirate that comes along. So chances are that i will loose my cargo and the time I already invested in hauling the cargo.

And skill... as a way to plan out a route, hiring escorts... please..., the pirates just have to have 1 person waiting on 1 of the sides of a chokepoints and you will not get away, not even with escorts.

I would just not be bothered and ask a couple of friends to go in the smaller ships and trade alongside each other. the chance of 1 ship getting away if you are with 3 in stad of 1 big slow ship is infinetely bigger. Especially since escorts pretty much do squatt... unless they have a distinct majority. I htink ctc has pretty much thaught us that.

I find ion storms tedious, boring, annoying and plainly a waste of my time. It is the reason why on pretty much all my movement through the galaxy i plot around sectors with asteroids. But this is probably because I don't like to trade and just do it to sustain my way of life or to have a chat with some friends heck, or if i have to go back to a missionpoint, lets quickly add a cargoship so i don't have to bother about making money later on, its o nthe way anyway.

I'd love to fly the Behemoth if it peaked at 160. It'd be great for UIT routes, Itani routes, Serco routes... SAFE routes. In grey systems life is very different.

The difference between maximum and mininmum distances for any wormhole is around 4K. You often shave off 2K from any wormhole run by planning your route well. Look at Sedina, you're never more than 300m from the WH as you enter the WH sector. Sure, certain wormholes are traps but that's just great. Those are GOOD risks to run. If you wish to be safer, double the number of runs and use Centaurs. This is risk management. This would be a good thing!

This is choice. Today there is no choice. You fly the Behemoth. Everywhere. Unless you feel like flying something else for novelty.

And escorts do matter, if they cooperate with the target. The problem with CtC is that the Transports are completely clueless.

But sure, start it at 170, see what happens. I still think 160 would be a better starting point.