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My thoughts and comments on the balance patch.
Ok, having had a chance to look at the update and experiment with the new ships last night, and stew about them all morning and early afternoon here at work; here are my thoughts and suggestions. I’m posting from work and having to rely on my memory for the current values, so if I make a mistake just politely point out my error, don’t be obnoxious about it. I had jotted a bunch of notes down last night, but now I can’t find that piece of paper.
First off, with only a few exceptions the update is pretty solid, if admittedly focused. The light ships have been changed and tweaked enough that there will be more variety, depending on what a player wants to do. With some more modifications I potentially forsee a lot of different possibilities.
I will start with the Valk because it’s the easiest. I know nothing about them, haven’t even seen one since the update, so I have no opinion at all.
My main concern is the centurion class of ships, their extremely high speeds and infinite turbo make them just a bit too powerful in my opinion, particularly considering that they can carry 8-12(I think its 12, maybe 11) cargo.
I would recommend changing the turbo drain on them to 55energy/second for top speeds of 220-230, and 60m/s for top speeds of 240+ I’ll discuss cargo in a minute.
The vultures are fairly well balanced, and the mark3 version has a very nice mix of speed and turbo drain, but the mark4 and the SGV need an increase in non-turbo top speed (to 70?). The corvus vulture needs to have it’s turbo drain reduced, maybe down to 75-80 energy/second. (I was told its 90/s?) All I know is that following spider across odia was a painfully slow experience for me.
For the Warthogs I find the same thing I noted with the vultures, the Mk1 and 2 versions are ok; the mark3 version is very nice,but the UIT defender is a distinct step down. To compensate for draining more energy/second, it could use a boost in non-turbo top speed. I would say 70 or 75 for the UIT defender. Additionally I would like to see the warthog increased in mass about 1.5 times, and have the engine attributes adjusted the same amount.
It doesn’t appear that anything significant was done to the majority of the rest of the ships, so my comments on them are more in the nature of what I would like to see.
For the atlas, I’d like to see turbo speed on the versions of it range from 190(mk1)-220(TGP Atlas X) m/s with infinite turbo for all but the last one. For the atlas X I’d like to see the energy drain be 55. The atlas just looks fast, so let’s give it a use as a grey space trader. Keep its non-turbo speed at 55m/s in order to make it more vulnerable around stations and the like.
On the same token I’d like to see its mass doubled, and the engines adjusted to compensate, but give it about a 5% drop in acceleration. Just a bit less than it is now to give a larger window for intercepting it.
The wraith is a more interesting problem. Like the atlas I’d like to see its mass doubled, and the engine tweaked by the same amount. For its speeds however I’d prefer it to have a lower turbo, (range between 180 and 200) but a maneuver speed of 60 for the basic version, up to 70 for the mark3) it needs something else, but i'm not totally sure what yet.
The marauder is the last ship whose mass/engines I’d like to see doubled. Adjust its turbo top speed/energy drain to 190/50(UIT), 200/50(TGP B, and maybe the Axia one), 210/55(TGP X), and 220/60 for the corvus version.
For the rangarok, I would like to see its mass tripled, and its engine tripled as well. Give the MK1 version a maneuver of 55 and a turbo of 180, with a drain of 50. Boost the Mk2 to a maneuver of 60, turbo 200, drain 55, and the Mk3 a maneuver of 65, turbo 210, drain 60.
The centaur I see the same way, Triple the mass, triple the engine. Give all versions turbo drain of 50, but at speeds ranging from 170 – 190m/s. maneuver on them should probably be 60 or 65.
Which brings us to the Prometheous, a ship that IMO needs to be able to match the valkarie 1v1 but use a totally different tactic. To this end I would Quadruple the mass, and Quadruple the engine. Boost the spin torque on them to make them just a bit more agile than they currently are however. Bump the base armor of the Mk1 up to 20K as well, and adjust the others accordingly.
Give the Mk1 and Mk2 versions a maneuver of 60/65 respectively, a turbo drain of 55, and a top speed of 200.
The Mk 3 version is the only one I would want to be able to infiniturbo, so give it a maneuver of 55, a top speed of 190 and a turbo drain of 50.
The Skycommand should have a boosted maneuver, give it 70, a top turbo of 220, and cut the drain back to 60, not 65. Also giving the skycommand a slightly higher spin torque than the other prometheous class vessels strikes me as something that might be tried.
For those of you that are wondering, boosting the mass and bringing the engine up by the same amount on the larger ships should serve to reduce the effect that the mass of weapons and cargo have on the ship. See thread http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7745#91077
Ok, way back up at the beginning I said I would discuss cargo later, it’s now later. I don’t think that any of the light ships should have more than 4 cargo spaces, and in most cases I think that 1-2 would be more appropriate. In the case of the SGV, the Corvus Vulture, the IBG Centurion, and one of the valks, 0 is a good number. If a ship is totally designed for combat, there doesn’t need to be any cargo space in it.
Other than the Ec-88 class the first ships to have any decent cargo space should be the warthog, wraith and the hornet. I envision cargo ranging from 6-14 depending on the version of the warthog, Maybe 4-12 for the hornet, and 10-20 for the wraith.
Drastically limiting the cargo space in the best fighters would make them harder to use by a lone wolf pirate, (or convoy raider for that matter) encouraging teamwork and grouping.
Looking back over this post I see that I managed to pretty much forget the hornet, which is Ok because I don’t have the slightest idea what to do with it. Perhaps an increase of mass/engine by 1.5 so that weapons affect it a little less and give it infinite turbo at speeds of up to 220, with a slight lowering of how it handles/accelerates. Make it a High speed escort fighter that sacrifices agility in close for firepower and the speed to keep up with what its gaurding.
First off, with only a few exceptions the update is pretty solid, if admittedly focused. The light ships have been changed and tweaked enough that there will be more variety, depending on what a player wants to do. With some more modifications I potentially forsee a lot of different possibilities.
I will start with the Valk because it’s the easiest. I know nothing about them, haven’t even seen one since the update, so I have no opinion at all.
My main concern is the centurion class of ships, their extremely high speeds and infinite turbo make them just a bit too powerful in my opinion, particularly considering that they can carry 8-12(I think its 12, maybe 11) cargo.
I would recommend changing the turbo drain on them to 55energy/second for top speeds of 220-230, and 60m/s for top speeds of 240+ I’ll discuss cargo in a minute.
The vultures are fairly well balanced, and the mark3 version has a very nice mix of speed and turbo drain, but the mark4 and the SGV need an increase in non-turbo top speed (to 70?). The corvus vulture needs to have it’s turbo drain reduced, maybe down to 75-80 energy/second. (I was told its 90/s?) All I know is that following spider across odia was a painfully slow experience for me.
For the Warthogs I find the same thing I noted with the vultures, the Mk1 and 2 versions are ok; the mark3 version is very nice,but the UIT defender is a distinct step down. To compensate for draining more energy/second, it could use a boost in non-turbo top speed. I would say 70 or 75 for the UIT defender. Additionally I would like to see the warthog increased in mass about 1.5 times, and have the engine attributes adjusted the same amount.
It doesn’t appear that anything significant was done to the majority of the rest of the ships, so my comments on them are more in the nature of what I would like to see.
For the atlas, I’d like to see turbo speed on the versions of it range from 190(mk1)-220(TGP Atlas X) m/s with infinite turbo for all but the last one. For the atlas X I’d like to see the energy drain be 55. The atlas just looks fast, so let’s give it a use as a grey space trader. Keep its non-turbo speed at 55m/s in order to make it more vulnerable around stations and the like.
On the same token I’d like to see its mass doubled, and the engines adjusted to compensate, but give it about a 5% drop in acceleration. Just a bit less than it is now to give a larger window for intercepting it.
The wraith is a more interesting problem. Like the atlas I’d like to see its mass doubled, and the engine tweaked by the same amount. For its speeds however I’d prefer it to have a lower turbo, (range between 180 and 200) but a maneuver speed of 60 for the basic version, up to 70 for the mark3) it needs something else, but i'm not totally sure what yet.
The marauder is the last ship whose mass/engines I’d like to see doubled. Adjust its turbo top speed/energy drain to 190/50(UIT), 200/50(TGP B, and maybe the Axia one), 210/55(TGP X), and 220/60 for the corvus version.
For the rangarok, I would like to see its mass tripled, and its engine tripled as well. Give the MK1 version a maneuver of 55 and a turbo of 180, with a drain of 50. Boost the Mk2 to a maneuver of 60, turbo 200, drain 55, and the Mk3 a maneuver of 65, turbo 210, drain 60.
The centaur I see the same way, Triple the mass, triple the engine. Give all versions turbo drain of 50, but at speeds ranging from 170 – 190m/s. maneuver on them should probably be 60 or 65.
Which brings us to the Prometheous, a ship that IMO needs to be able to match the valkarie 1v1 but use a totally different tactic. To this end I would Quadruple the mass, and Quadruple the engine. Boost the spin torque on them to make them just a bit more agile than they currently are however. Bump the base armor of the Mk1 up to 20K as well, and adjust the others accordingly.
Give the Mk1 and Mk2 versions a maneuver of 60/65 respectively, a turbo drain of 55, and a top speed of 200.
The Mk 3 version is the only one I would want to be able to infiniturbo, so give it a maneuver of 55, a top speed of 190 and a turbo drain of 50.
The Skycommand should have a boosted maneuver, give it 70, a top turbo of 220, and cut the drain back to 60, not 65. Also giving the skycommand a slightly higher spin torque than the other prometheous class vessels strikes me as something that might be tried.
For those of you that are wondering, boosting the mass and bringing the engine up by the same amount on the larger ships should serve to reduce the effect that the mass of weapons and cargo have on the ship. See thread http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7745#91077
Ok, way back up at the beginning I said I would discuss cargo later, it’s now later. I don’t think that any of the light ships should have more than 4 cargo spaces, and in most cases I think that 1-2 would be more appropriate. In the case of the SGV, the Corvus Vulture, the IBG Centurion, and one of the valks, 0 is a good number. If a ship is totally designed for combat, there doesn’t need to be any cargo space in it.
Other than the Ec-88 class the first ships to have any decent cargo space should be the warthog, wraith and the hornet. I envision cargo ranging from 6-14 depending on the version of the warthog, Maybe 4-12 for the hornet, and 10-20 for the wraith.
Drastically limiting the cargo space in the best fighters would make them harder to use by a lone wolf pirate, (or convoy raider for that matter) encouraging teamwork and grouping.
Looking back over this post I see that I managed to pretty much forget the hornet, which is Ok because I don’t have the slightest idea what to do with it. Perhaps an increase of mass/engine by 1.5 so that weapons affect it a little less and give it infinite turbo at speeds of up to 220, with a slight lowering of how it handles/accelerates. Make it a High speed escort fighter that sacrifices agility in close for firepower and the speed to keep up with what its gaurding.
The heavies aren't getting fixed until the next update, so you should probably wait and see what's in store before commenting.
Only the Mk3 Centurion is really overbalanced. The IBG has 240m/s turbo and 70e drain, which is about right. I can't see any ship having infiniboost over 200m/s.
Only the Mk3 Centurion is really overbalanced. The IBG has 240m/s turbo and 70e drain, which is about right. I can't see any ship having infiniboost over 200m/s.
hence why i posted:
"-It doesn’t appear that anything significant was done to the majority of the rest of the ships, so my comments on them are more in the nature of what I would like to see.-"
"-It doesn’t appear that anything significant was done to the majority of the rest of the ships, so my comments on them are more in the nature of what I would like to see.-"
i agree with Spellcast that this patch has made for more variety in tactics and ship selection, and i really like it so far. And i also agree completely that fighters should have at most 2 cargo, never more (except maybe the Valk Rune, to keep it special).
so about the hornet, and fighter balance in general: it seems that a major problem with the hornet, and to a lesser extent the valk, is that they can't fulfill their roles as 'superiority fighters' (as opposed to interceptors like the cent and vult) because no battery supplies enough energy for a full loadout. that is, a valk with 3 energy weps can really only use 2 of them after the first salvo since the battery empties too quickly. this is even more true of the hornet. and missiles/rockets are currently too heavy to alleviate this. thus, valks/hornets pack about as much firepower as a cent or vult, are bigger and (hornet) far less maneuverable, and are relatively huge targets. furthermore, the turbo drains imposed by the new patch really exacerbate this problem. so we're left with larger, less nimble, armored fighters that are hard pressed to compete with the new cents/vults. i think an appropriate balance shift to remedy this, and one that i realize is probably already in the works, is to make more energy available to these larger fighters, either in the form of multiple battery slots or large vs small battery slots. of course, this would have to be implemented in a way that keeps these ships from infiniboosting; maybe have a weapons battery slot and an engine battery slot.
some would argue that this would make the valk too powerful. i think it should be. it's an elite fighter for elite pilots, and only a very skilled player should be able to reliably kill valks in a cent or vult. ditto for the prom (though that's another thread entirely).
so about the hornet, and fighter balance in general: it seems that a major problem with the hornet, and to a lesser extent the valk, is that they can't fulfill their roles as 'superiority fighters' (as opposed to interceptors like the cent and vult) because no battery supplies enough energy for a full loadout. that is, a valk with 3 energy weps can really only use 2 of them after the first salvo since the battery empties too quickly. this is even more true of the hornet. and missiles/rockets are currently too heavy to alleviate this. thus, valks/hornets pack about as much firepower as a cent or vult, are bigger and (hornet) far less maneuverable, and are relatively huge targets. furthermore, the turbo drains imposed by the new patch really exacerbate this problem. so we're left with larger, less nimble, armored fighters that are hard pressed to compete with the new cents/vults. i think an appropriate balance shift to remedy this, and one that i realize is probably already in the works, is to make more energy available to these larger fighters, either in the form of multiple battery slots or large vs small battery slots. of course, this would have to be implemented in a way that keeps these ships from infiniboosting; maybe have a weapons battery slot and an engine battery slot.
some would argue that this would make the valk too powerful. i think it should be. it's an elite fighter for elite pilots, and only a very skilled player should be able to reliably kill valks in a cent or vult. ditto for the prom (though that's another thread entirely).
was the hornet ever intended to carry 4 energy weapons? ive always assumed that its loadout would usually be 2 energy weapons and 2 S missiles...a quad neut3 hornet would do a crazy amount of damage.
I'm not sure the hog should be made any heavier unless L slot weapons decrease in mass, at the moment its at the edge of the fighter/bomber boundary where IMO it should be.
I'm not sure the hog should be made any heavier unless L slot weapons decrease in mass, at the moment its at the edge of the fighter/bomber boundary where IMO it should be.
myko, you missed the point of raising the mass. If it is increased in mass and its engine is also increased by the same factor, then the mass of the weapons becomes less of an issue.
reference the thread i posted up above for a more detailed explination.
reference the thread i posted up above for a more detailed explination.
my opinion is pretty limited as I have been travelling since the update and cannot log in (or rather choose not to on hotel connections)
From what I understand the interceptors are now capable of intercepting, they move really fast as they were supposed to.
However this has made the secondary effect that they are far too good in fighting and running away. This could be solved imo by making the interceptors lower in armor and have 0-2 cargo space.
The cent should be able to catch a valk, but the cent should not have 8 cargo nor be able to survive a direct fight with a valk for long. Obviously it should be able to run away from the valk since it is made for speed alone, but infi boost at those speeds is insane and I think spellcast covered how to fix that well enough.
Heavy ships still need balancing of course but I won't comment on that until its released and I am back home and able to test it for myself.
From what I understand the interceptors are now capable of intercepting, they move really fast as they were supposed to.
However this has made the secondary effect that they are far too good in fighting and running away. This could be solved imo by making the interceptors lower in armor and have 0-2 cargo space.
The cent should be able to catch a valk, but the cent should not have 8 cargo nor be able to survive a direct fight with a valk for long. Obviously it should be able to run away from the valk since it is made for speed alone, but infi boost at those speeds is insane and I think spellcast covered how to fix that well enough.
Heavy ships still need balancing of course but I won't comment on that until its released and I am back home and able to test it for myself.
[Edit] removed and moved post per request.. Understand in had the intention of doing so when i had the time.. I just had to write the idea before it left my mind... Props to this thread for sparking it ^_^
Renegade... I took the liberty of copy pasteing your reply here into my post, so i could post a reply.
Renegade... I took the liberty of copy pasteing your reply here into my post, so i could post a reply.
EDIT
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[edit] removed due to Off Topic.
okay, now I've thought some about the original proposal, And I'm not 100% that I agree with the boosting of the Centaur. up to 2x I would certianly agree with, however at 3x a loaded centaur will handle better than a loaded marauder, and at that stage, if the marauder is boosted, we will greatly offset the PvP balance, since it is an excellent fightership, and would become a bit too deadly if it was able to shun a couple of gauss and totalling them with the feeling of 1000kg mass.
Yes, I feel that the light mass of the Marauder when empty can certainly offset that it takes heavy cargo a bit worse than the bulkier centaur, however if the centaur is made to haul all goods in an equal fashion, then suddenly things start to go the wrong way, and the centaur is once more the best trader, reducing the currently very good Marauder into obscurity.
I'm also not sure that if a Centaur was able to push cargo with 1/3'd of the mass, that it would be actually interceptable by a fighter. I'm wondering a bit on the acceleration rate of it with cargo being higher than what is possible with the feastest interceptor ships like the Valkyre, Vulture, Corvus Marauder.
Yes, I feel that the light mass of the Marauder when empty can certainly offset that it takes heavy cargo a bit worse than the bulkier centaur, however if the centaur is made to haul all goods in an equal fashion, then suddenly things start to go the wrong way, and the centaur is once more the best trader, reducing the currently very good Marauder into obscurity.
I'm also not sure that if a Centaur was able to push cargo with 1/3'd of the mass, that it would be actually interceptable by a fighter. I'm wondering a bit on the acceleration rate of it with cargo being higher than what is possible with the feastest interceptor ships like the Valkyre, Vulture, Corvus Marauder.
Ts Midknight, and those who replied to him: please remove your posts as they are focused on missiles, not on balancing the ships. Your ideas are good, but they are off topic for this thread.
Spider, the centaur will never outrun anything using the above numbers since it has a max top turbo of 190. If neccesary they could increase the engine by somewhat less than x3, maybe up it by x2.75 to cut its acceleration down a bit more.
Spider, the centaur will never outrun anything using the above numbers since it has a max top turbo of 190. If neccesary they could increase the engine by somewhat less than x3, maybe up it by x2.75 to cut its acceleration down a bit more.
Spellcast: ahh, yes. Sounds doable indeed.
[EDIT]
just created another thread for this, as it grew too much and became sort of out of the scope of this thread
[/EDIT]
My opinion: set niches for all ships. Ships are too close to each other.
Also, large ships need a special "equipment port", which should not be available to anything else and would take cargo space if used. Useful tips for equipment:
- battery charger: double battery capacity
- solar panels: 50% faster recharge (read about the hornet below)
- flares or ecm
- radar cloaking - traders/pirates in action
- longer range radar
- longer range scanner
About ships and roles:
- Centurion: - hit and run (pirates?) - keep the infiniturbo, cut its max speed to no more 55 or 58. And cut the cargo to 5.
- Warthog: - light fighter with large port - there is none up to now, I think this one is getting good, a little more trust would balance it out perfectly. Top cargo 6-10 (except for the mining version). If overly powerful, remove the S port (that would be interesting too).
- Vults: - light short-range combat ships - they seem to be ok now
- Hornets: - heavy combat ship/small weapons - what this ship needs is to get a massive improvement in HP and to have a LOT more battery power, so even if it is slower, it might have a chance of killing its targets before they approach, by sheer firepower.
- Ragnarok: - heavy support ship - same tips as the Hornet, but this niche would be to fire long range missiles (maybe remote controlled?) and repairing other ships on an ongoing battle. Out of sight! Repair gun could be automated too, and this ship doesn't need 3 small ports. Maybe 3 large ports only? One for repair, 2 missiles.
- Centaurs: - heavy transport - maybe if the other ships can carry less, this ship's role as a transport will prevail. I think it needs a little more cargo space to prove useful in most situations, as the Atlas is quite better than this.
- Prom: - heavy combat/large weapons - this ship should the the hornet's counterpart with large weapons. It should turn faster, though. Should be able to hit from afar and keep shooting for a long time. Or to use radar cloaking.
- Valks & Mauds: - can't find a role for these ships. This might be the reason why they cause so much controversy, no one knows what they are supposed to do. Valks are something between the hornet and the vulture, but people seem to want both advantages and none of the problems. Mauds are supposed to be traders, miners, fighters, janitor ships (see the thread about the janitor roles, it's hilarious) and a miriad of things that do not converge.
Make the ships complementary, not just different shapes. Give them very defined roles. Make them depend on each other. Then give us a reason to use them together. Missions missions missions!
just created another thread for this, as it grew too much and became sort of out of the scope of this thread
[/EDIT]
My opinion: set niches for all ships. Ships are too close to each other.
Also, large ships need a special "equipment port", which should not be available to anything else and would take cargo space if used. Useful tips for equipment:
- battery charger: double battery capacity
- solar panels: 50% faster recharge (read about the hornet below)
- flares or ecm
- radar cloaking - traders/pirates in action
- longer range radar
- longer range scanner
About ships and roles:
- Centurion: - hit and run (pirates?) - keep the infiniturbo, cut its max speed to no more 55 or 58. And cut the cargo to 5.
- Warthog: - light fighter with large port - there is none up to now, I think this one is getting good, a little more trust would balance it out perfectly. Top cargo 6-10 (except for the mining version). If overly powerful, remove the S port (that would be interesting too).
- Vults: - light short-range combat ships - they seem to be ok now
- Hornets: - heavy combat ship/small weapons - what this ship needs is to get a massive improvement in HP and to have a LOT more battery power, so even if it is slower, it might have a chance of killing its targets before they approach, by sheer firepower.
- Ragnarok: - heavy support ship - same tips as the Hornet, but this niche would be to fire long range missiles (maybe remote controlled?) and repairing other ships on an ongoing battle. Out of sight! Repair gun could be automated too, and this ship doesn't need 3 small ports. Maybe 3 large ports only? One for repair, 2 missiles.
- Centaurs: - heavy transport - maybe if the other ships can carry less, this ship's role as a transport will prevail. I think it needs a little more cargo space to prove useful in most situations, as the Atlas is quite better than this.
- Prom: - heavy combat/large weapons - this ship should the the hornet's counterpart with large weapons. It should turn faster, though. Should be able to hit from afar and keep shooting for a long time. Or to use radar cloaking.
- Valks & Mauds: - can't find a role for these ships. This might be the reason why they cause so much controversy, no one knows what they are supposed to do. Valks are something between the hornet and the vulture, but people seem to want both advantages and none of the problems. Mauds are supposed to be traders, miners, fighters, janitor ships (see the thread about the janitor roles, it's hilarious) and a miriad of things that do not converge.
Make the ships complementary, not just different shapes. Give them very defined roles. Make them depend on each other. Then give us a reason to use them together. Missions missions missions!
and the wraith?
they always skip my favorite ship :(
they always skip my favorite ship :(
you're right, I'm missing a few things there, like "light transports", ships that should be able to withstand light fire and transport moderate amounts of cargo (IMHO, about half as much as a heavy transport).
But then the Atlas and the Wraith are occupying the same niche. Or maybe the Atlas, the Wraith, and the Maud. They don't have clear positions in the "food chain".
But then the Atlas and the Wraith are occupying the same niche. Or maybe the Atlas, the Wraith, and the Maud. They don't have clear positions in the "food chain".
the wraith is the weaker counterpart of the prom. At least thats how I envisioned it