Giving the Raptor UDV 2 large ports was a decent idea, we can all agree on that as it made the UDV stand out from other ships and turned it more into a multi purpose ship than some may think (decent bomber, storm botter as dual MP gives it quite the bang etc.).
What's striking anyhow is that it was completely forgotten that giving the UDV Raptor 2 large ports means that it will be a lot heavier in combat, as most of the large port add ons weigh quite a lot. I think this is not the point of it. That way right now, the only setup that seems halfway convincing in player to player combat is a dual Megapositron setup, as everything else is much too heavy and allows worse maneuvering.

The simple solution: Adapt the UDV to its new two large ports. I have thought about a few moderate buffs that should add for some better maneuverability for the UDV while not making it overpowered. Of course it is open for discussion, though I'd like to ask for constructive criticism in case my proposals do not appeal to you. Save the unfriendliness for the RP Forums or for the next time you engage me in combat. :)

TPG Raptor UDV:

Armor: 10500
Cargo: 6
Weapons: 2L
Mass: 3800 ---> downgrade to 3500
Length: 17m
Thrust: 215N ----> 315N
Turbo Thrust: 300N ----> 350N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 8.5 Nm ----> 9.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 225 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55 s

I know some of the increases look massive, but keep in mind some of the most commonly used heavy weapons and how much they weigh. Of course I could have just come up with the usual idea of reducing the Raptors profile by a certain percentage, but that is A) too much work for the devs and B) probably not even intended. So proposing a tweak seemed to make sense to me.
It was hard to compare to stats and come up with a fair set as there simply is no other ship with just 2 large ports, but I think this should make the UDV fairly maneuverable in combat without making it impossible to it.

This proposal would allow a UDC with dual chaos swarms to handle similar to a vulturius with dual gauss. That's just garbage man. No missile-equipped light fighter ship should handle even remotely similar to ANY rocket and energy light fighter setup...even the heavier ones. This, I'm sure, is everyone's opinion that doesn't swarm and run. With these changes, UDCs would abuse the swarm and run tactic without a doubt.

I'm cool with giving the thrust and spin torque an upgrade, but at a COST of weight. This way, if you equip lighter energy and rocket large port weapons, you will DEFINITELY be able to tell an improvement in handling and such. Bu if you choose to equip heavy large port missile weapons, well...you will still be tanky as fuck and have a difficult time running away.

I see no reason to increase turbo thrust. We aren't trying to make another interceptor now are we?

These are changes I think everyone can live with...

TPG Raptor UDV:

Armor: 10500
Cargo: 6
Weapons: 2L
Mass: 3800 ---> 4500
Length: 17m
Thrust: 215N ----> 315N
Turbo Thrust: 300N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 8.5 Nm ----> 9.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 225 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55 s

Um... Nihilus, you are missing some points that I'd like to show you now.

This proposal would allow a UDC with dual chaos swarms to handle similar to a vulturius with dual gauss. That's just garbage man.

No it would not. And even if it would.... What advantage would it bring? You can already swarm and run and surely get out of there. The probabability of success in that would still be higher using a Greyhound because that has unlimited running capability. A swarm Raptor with these stats could NEVER get away from a X1 or a Hound. No one will choose the UDV for swarm running over the Greyhound.
And how dangerous are swarms to a half capable pilot? Right. Not at all. If you can't dodge them, learn it.
It would make the UDV Raptor a better bomber on the other hand. I whole heartedly agree with you here. But that's an advantage that the UIT deserve.

I'm cool with giving the thrust and spin torque an upgrade, but at a COST of weight.

Nonsense. You can just leave it as it is then if you are gonna increase the thrust but GIVE it more weight. Haha.

Bu if you choose to equip heavy large port missile weapons, well...you will still be tanky as fuck and have a difficult time running away.

But that is JUST how it shouldn't be. You wouldn't change crap then? You are completely missing the point of this thread. Large port weapons ARE Heavy and that's why the UDV NEEDS an upgrade.
And I don't think this was suggested just so there can be more swarming and running. There always will be. This is imo a weak attempt to keep the UIT down. Sorry man.

I see no reason to increase turbo thrust. We aren't trying to make another interceptor now are we?

Let's think a moment about why this ship has 225 m/s... Ah right! Because it IS an ion storm interceptor. Yeah!

P.S.: The ship is called UDV, not UDC.
Sorry for my clear wording, I don't mean any of it personal, I just don't see any sense in most of the poins you stated here.

No way on both suggestions.

UDV has 2 LARGE PORTS, if anything, that should reflect on it's increased mass.
You just want to turn it into a dual swarm spammer that can run away as easy as greyhound.

WTD is 10 m long, almost 50% smaller then UDV and has 1 S and 1L port and it's weight is 5300 kg, how could a ship double it's size and cargo capacity with 2 L ports be so light?
It does not make any sense.

Realistic stats for UDV should be like this:

Armor: 10500
Cargo: 3
Weapons: 2L
Mass: 3800 kg ---> 5800 kg
Length: 17m
Thrust: 215N ----> 245N
Turbo Thrust: 300N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 8.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 220 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60 s

Sorry, but that is hilarious. Why it that so many non-UIT are trying so hard to keep the UIT low?
You are speaking about realism in a game.

WTD is 10 m long, almost 50% smaller then UDV and has 1 S and 1L port and it's weight is 5300 kg, how could a ship double it's size and cargo capacity with 2 L ports be so light?

This argument shows quite well how desperately you were trying to look for an excuse to say "No Way".
You cannot compare the WTD to the UDV. The UDV is an exclusive ship, so it should be very decent at what it is supposed to be. And right now it is not. The cargo is laughable. Who cares if it has 6 cu or 3? Tell the OP then to nerf the UDVs cargo then on his list. Haha

If you went for realism with what the ships can do, then please explain why the Valkyrie X-1 can have 3 small ports compared to the Vulture and be lighter than it? Oops. Exaclty. Looks like we need to nerf your Valkyrie, Bojan. Sorry.

bojansplash. That's silly, would make the ship handle like GARBAGE. Here's a comparison with addon mass (dual posi and UC battery = 1100kg) included to show why:

Current UDV stats:
4900kg / 215N = 22.79 kg/N
4900kg /8.5 Nm = 576 kg/Nm

Proposed UDV stats:
6900kg / 245N = 28.16 kg/N
6900kg / 8.5 Nm = 811 kg/Nm

Inc has already told us that the "Length" stat is essentially BS and the ship's rotational momentum is computed by the game engine from the shape of it's collision hull. Because the game doesn't show us any of those numbers, comparing the spin torque of different ship models is apples to oranges. Thrust numbers still apply the same for a given mass so here's the WTD with the same addon mass:

WTD:
6400kg / 275N = 23.27 kg/N

please explain why the Valkyrie X-1 can have 3 small ports compared to the Vulture and be lighter than it?

The Vulture (SVG, in this case, since we're comparing it to the top-of-the-line Valkyrie) has a more powerful engine, producing 235/260N thrust in comparison to the X-1's 225/235N.

Acceleration, not mass, is king in Vendetta physics.

Anyway, back on topic:

-1 to OP. The UDV is a good ship, but it's not meant to be a heavy tank like the Prom. If you load it down with Gatling and Swarms, you should pay dearly for it, and you do now. With the OP's modifications, that would no longer be true.

+1 for doing something for the UDV

As for the swarm and run concerns, another suggestion thread could be opened to increase the mass on swarms.

If you keep all the ratios the same, but increase the magnitude of the thrust, weight, and spin torque, then as you add weight the ratio with be less responsive to the weight change. It is basic math.

I agree that the ship needs a handling improvement when equipped with energy weapons, but it doesn't need to handle better when equipped with anything heavier than 2000. My suggestion stats would more or less accomplish that. Do the math my friend.

I will say though, that I take back what I said about the turbo thrust. You are right. I did forget that it in fact IS a storm interceptor (built in scanner to prove it).

I am not trying to keep UIT down man. I really don't give a shit about nationalism in the least bit. In fact, having that ship with the stats suggested by Sieger would only benefit me. It would turn it into a hive farm BEAST. All I care about is the balance of the game, and it is my opinion that those suggested stats wouldn't present a ship that is balanced with the rest of the ships in VO.

And you weren't being clear at all. You were being vague and sarcastic, but ok buddy...

By the way I also think bojansplash's suggestion was horrible. I do not want to "nerf" a ship that truly does need to be improved. As "Serious.Person" has pointed out, the UDV was intended to be an interceptor. With that, I would like revise my suggested stats:

TPG Raptor UDV:

Armor: 10500
Cargo: 6
Weapons: 2L
Mass: 3800 ----> 4500
Length: 17m
Thrust: 215N ----> 315N
Turbo Thrust: 300N ----> 350N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 8.5 Nm ----> 9.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 225 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55 s ----> 53 s

Always learning something new, thanks for the explanations about 'length' bullshit ARF, had no idea it does not affect anything.

@ Serious.Person
As stated above, I had no idea that length does not affect anything, now it makes my argument moot.

Serco/Itani top of the line ships are consistent with the backstory, only UIT ships that are consistent with the backstory are marauders.

WTD and UDV were implemented to stop the constant yellow majority whining about their need to have more exclusive ships when faction redux screwed the yellow holy cows by not allowing you to buy more SCPs and valks.

The valk has 3 small ports, and some people load them all with suns. I do not think the valk should be intentionally balanced to that end. The UDV has two large ports, and some people will load them with chaos. I do not think the UDV should be balanced to that end.

If we try to balance the UDV with uc/mp against a valk with uc/laws, the UDV is short on combat thrust.

Increase UDV combat thrust to 245N.

Glad to see this picked up at the very least. Thanks all for taking it seriously this time. Generally I do not see the danger of people running around in dual swarm UDVs. First of all only UIT could actually do it, and second, as stated by Serious.Person the Greyhound will just always be the best at it as you stand no chance of dying in it if you do it proffessionally (whilst a swarmy UDV would run out eventually and would not get away there with its fat profile if a flare/rail/megaposi interceptor is around).

I'll try to comment on the posts that I think would fit a statement by me:

Darth Nihilus - Thanks for your counter proposal. I do see that it may seem a little much of improvement. I could live with your stats being used except for the high mass increase. If you are going to increase instead of decrease, then higher it to 4000 or 4100, not to 4,5k immediately.

bojansplash - Thanks for your counter proposal as well. I do admit I had to smile a little when I read it, but its good ARF could clear that misunderstanding up. I wasn't all aware of it aswell. Now as for your "UIT crying for exlclusive ships" statement... I would like to inform you that none, the WTD, the IBG and the SVG are exclusive. The only exclusives are Proms Valks and UDVs. And the UIT are majorly getting the short stick with it. We do not want a ship that is better than... or can compete with... We want a ship that it unique and great in its own way.

ARF - Thank you for your calculations. Though I had to cough loudly when readig the following:

The UDV is a good ship, but it's not meant to be a heavy tank like the Prom. If you load it down with Gatling and Swarms, you should pay dearly for it, and you do now. With the OP's modifications, that would no longer be true.

You may want to check back on the Prom. The Prom has errm... 21000 armor... The UDV has... right. 10500 armor. That is half. It also has a big profile which makes it easier to hit than a Prom. I do not see my originally proposed stats to cause any of the danger you suggested there.

kbireta - THANK you for pointing this out. I honestly do not see all the problem with the swarms. They can be dodged in combat easily. And really, if there is an issue with them, go complain about them, not about a ship that could potentially use them well.

@sieger

"I would like to inform you that none, the WTD, the IBG and the SVG are exclusive. The only exclusives are Proms Valks and UDVs."

Not entirely true, centurions (including IBG) are exclusive Itani design ships and vultures (including SVG) are Serco exclusive design ships. The fact that centurions and vultures (in inferior variants) are available everywhere is a compromise.
VO would have been more realistic and more consistent with the backstory if that compromise ceased to exist.

This is a discussion about the handling of the UDV Raptor, not about it's armor. +100N thrust is an enormous overpowering buff for a ship that weighs less than a Warthog.

To put it into perspective, since I've been on a numbers kick:

OP's OP Raptor:
3500kg + 1100kg (dual posi/UC) = 4600kg / 315N = 14.6 kg/N
4600kg / 350N = 13.14 kg/N
Centurion Superlight:
3000kg + 500kg (widowmaker/UC) = 3500kg / 218N = 16.05 kg/N
3500kg / 245N = 14.28 kg/N

This isn't even fair since the Centurion is toting around less than half the firepower and yet your proposed ship is lighter on its feet than a full-compromise agility fighter. How about a few more numbers, you know just for good measure.

Corvus Greyhound:
5000kg + 1100kg (dual posi/UC) = 6100kg / 190N = 32.1 kg/N
6100kg / 450N = 13.56 kg/N

You want better acceleration than the Corvus Greyhound, a full-compromise interceptor.

Please, tell us again how I have thought about a few moderate buffs that should add for some better maneuverability for the UDV while not making it overpowered.

Really though, you don't have to limit yourself to using the best blaster-class weapon in the game. The current UDV still handles just fine even with Jackhammers (1200kg) and Gatling HV (800kg). The only time it really gets sluggish is when you load really heavy stuff on it like Chaos Swarms and Gat Turrets. I don't see any problem with that, since it's otherwise quite a fast ship with good armor. Even then, a UDV with dual swarms is harder to hit than a comparably-equipped Centaur or Ragnarok.

The OP is a direct result of the UIT not having anything that gives them an edge like the other two nations do.

I fully support anything that offers more balance in this regard.

+1 to OP

Being UIT, and now being locked out of the valk, I am for more interested in a ship that can go head to head with a valk. AGT/chaos are not going to cut it. I consider the SVG to be for more important for the serco than the prom. The WTD is not a great chaser. The UDV is. The main thing the UDV lacks, vs a valk, is fighter like performance. Make the UDV a better light fighter, not a better prom.

Increase UDV combat thrust to 250N.
Increase UDV spin to 9.0Nm

bojansplash - I am aware... I simply argumented from a different point. All three ships, the WTD, the IBG and the SVG can be flown by all pilots in game. You simply need +600 Itani standing which is the highest achievable if you are not "from" that nation. Even Serco could still buy IBGs.

ARF - I know that you are good at doing the math and I completely agree with you that it'd be a very hige buff. But even if it went through, the UDV still wouldn't be as "overpowered" as the SCP or the Valkyrie. And by your logic which is based on "comparing" ship data as you just did, the armor should matter of course.

On that note I will happily tell you again how I have done what you questioned up there:
I suggested very decent stats for a ship which is supposed to very decent but is not right now. To understand this you need to lay off all your comparisons to ships such as the Hound or the Warthog. You would just get to the same point when starting to compare the Valk to other ships. I suggested a very decent and unique ship for the UIT.

As for your weapon commentry: The swarm argument is invalid. There are many large port weapons that would simply make the UDV too sluggish but for where there is good reason to equip them. All the Plasma-Weapons make a good example here (Plasma Anni etc.). And that is not all of it. I could imagine the UDV to be very decent with Concussion Rails, but as you know, they are 4k weight... ANd I disagree that the rockets fit sufficiently. The UDV should be MUCH less sluggish when putting Jacks or Screamers on it. The list of stuff you CAN'T do right now cause of its lack of maneuverability is just to high to be denied by the silly "But swarm n' run!!!!!" argument...

Remove swarms from game, problem solved. No more swarm n' run!

Seriously we need a new thread to propose changes for swarms that make them less useful for such silly, cheap tactics.

-1