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New item: Refined Ore, Part 2
Original thread
To summarize, Refined Ore would be manufactured at mining stations using raw ore mined from asteroids and purified it into a form more suitable for industrial use (e.g. Ingot Iron)
One of the concepts brought up was that as your mining level increased the efficiency of the refining process should increase. After much thought, I think this should no longer be the case. No matter how efficient your process may be, there is really no accounting for the unknown amount of impurities found in each unit of raw ore. It would be better to just leave the established conversion ratios fixed.
As tarenty suggested in the original thread, a 10:1 (raw:refined) conversion ratio is probably a good starting point for most ores (e.g. Carbonic, Ferric). I then started thinking about how from an RP standpoint Aquean is mostly ice and not the usable materials and should probably require more to refine it. This then lead to trying to come up with a reasonable way to determine what the ratios should be for each ore. Ultimately, after going through that whole process I think it would just be simpler to have a single conversion ratio for the base refined ore.
I'd further like to suggest that in lieu of increased efficiency as mining level increases that the ability to refine rarer ores be unlocked. My initial suggestion for this would be based on the experience earned from mining it, XP divided by 2 and rounded up. This would give us the following license levels to refine each type of ore.
Aquean: 2
Silicate: 3
Carbonic: 3
Ferric: 3
Ishik: 4
VanAzek: 4
Xithricite: 4
Lanthanic: 5
Pyronic: 6
Apicene: 7
Denic: 8
Pentric: 9
Heliocene: 10
Another suggestion was that some of the rarer ores might only be refined at specific stations. Pyronic, for instance, is only found in Serco space so it makes some sense that it only be possible to refine it at stations found in Serco space. I think that some RP value could be derived from this sort of limitation, but I can't think of way to split them up that wouldn't imbalance things in favor of one group or another.
To summarize, Refined Ore would be manufactured at mining stations using raw ore mined from asteroids and purified it into a form more suitable for industrial use (e.g. Ingot Iron)
One of the concepts brought up was that as your mining level increased the efficiency of the refining process should increase. After much thought, I think this should no longer be the case. No matter how efficient your process may be, there is really no accounting for the unknown amount of impurities found in each unit of raw ore. It would be better to just leave the established conversion ratios fixed.
As tarenty suggested in the original thread, a 10:1 (raw:refined) conversion ratio is probably a good starting point for most ores (e.g. Carbonic, Ferric). I then started thinking about how from an RP standpoint Aquean is mostly ice and not the usable materials and should probably require more to refine it. This then lead to trying to come up with a reasonable way to determine what the ratios should be for each ore. Ultimately, after going through that whole process I think it would just be simpler to have a single conversion ratio for the base refined ore.
I'd further like to suggest that in lieu of increased efficiency as mining level increases that the ability to refine rarer ores be unlocked. My initial suggestion for this would be based on the experience earned from mining it, XP divided by 2 and rounded up. This would give us the following license levels to refine each type of ore.
Aquean: 2
Silicate: 3
Carbonic: 3
Ferric: 3
Ishik: 4
VanAzek: 4
Xithricite: 4
Lanthanic: 5
Pyronic: 6
Apicene: 7
Denic: 8
Pentric: 9
Heliocene: 10
Another suggestion was that some of the rarer ores might only be refined at specific stations. Pyronic, for instance, is only found in Serco space so it makes some sense that it only be possible to refine it at stations found in Serco space. I think that some RP value could be derived from this sort of limitation, but I can't think of way to split them up that wouldn't imbalance things in favor of one group or another.
What about, using some lesser valuable ores, to increase the conversion ratio of rarer ores?
Then, the silicate used to refine Pentric, would disappear in the process.
Then, the silicate used to refine Pentric, would disappear in the process.
+1 but rare ores should only be refined at mining stations in grey space
this game is supposed to be dangerous
this game is supposed to be dangerous
+1 for requiring experience to refine the rarer ores, but tying it to mining licenses doesn't seem right. That would preclude players who don't do much mining and opting to buy ores from other players from doing much refining. Adding a manufacturing license could be appropriate, but considering that's probably more trouble than it's worth to implement, I'd recommend using a series of manufacturing badges instead.
As far as what levels to use for unlocking (assuming a manufacturing badge system is implemented), I suggest the following: Aquean to Ferric have no badge requirement to refine, Pentric and Helio would require a level IV badge, and the rest fall somewhere in between.
I agree that a 10:1 ratio for refining sounds about right. Granted, this suggestion seems to be aimed more at capship manufacturing where refined ores would be used in large quantities, but I'm also considering a full scale economy with production driven supply, where Barracks stations would surely have demand for refined ore (maybe research and commercial stations too?). 10 cu of ore to create a single unit of refined ore feels about right for what would be needed for the production of some low-level addon.
And in regard to station exclusivity for the refining of ores, it makes sense to limit Pyronic refining to Serco space. I don't think it is necessary to try and force such a restriction on the other ores. I'd be more inclined for something along the lines of this suggestion to add more region-exclusive ores, and those new ores can also have a similar region-restriction for their refinement. It might also be interesting to have greyspace exclusive ores that can only be refined in nation space.
An idea along a similar vein could be to have one station in particular where the refining is more efficient, but still have it be available for refining at the standard conversion rate elsewhere. For example, it might make sense to have the mining station at Helios be slightly more efficient at refining Heliocene.
[EDIT]
No Drevent, you have it backwards. After centuries of mining in nation space, the most lucrative ore deposits would have already been exhausted, leaving the best ores to be found in the unexplored depths of greyspace. The refining stations in nation space would still be better equipped than the small stations in greyspace. Therefore it would make the most sense to favor mining in grey and refining in nation space.
As far as what levels to use for unlocking (assuming a manufacturing badge system is implemented), I suggest the following: Aquean to Ferric have no badge requirement to refine, Pentric and Helio would require a level IV badge, and the rest fall somewhere in between.
I agree that a 10:1 ratio for refining sounds about right. Granted, this suggestion seems to be aimed more at capship manufacturing where refined ores would be used in large quantities, but I'm also considering a full scale economy with production driven supply, where Barracks stations would surely have demand for refined ore (maybe research and commercial stations too?). 10 cu of ore to create a single unit of refined ore feels about right for what would be needed for the production of some low-level addon.
And in regard to station exclusivity for the refining of ores, it makes sense to limit Pyronic refining to Serco space. I don't think it is necessary to try and force such a restriction on the other ores. I'd be more inclined for something along the lines of this suggestion to add more region-exclusive ores, and those new ores can also have a similar region-restriction for their refinement. It might also be interesting to have greyspace exclusive ores that can only be refined in nation space.
An idea along a similar vein could be to have one station in particular where the refining is more efficient, but still have it be available for refining at the standard conversion rate elsewhere. For example, it might make sense to have the mining station at Helios be slightly more efficient at refining Heliocene.
[EDIT]
No Drevent, you have it backwards. After centuries of mining in nation space, the most lucrative ore deposits would have already been exhausted, leaving the best ores to be found in the unexplored depths of greyspace. The refining stations in nation space would still be better equipped than the small stations in greyspace. Therefore it would make the most sense to favor mining in grey and refining in nation space.
Actually, my suggestion isn't necessarily targeted at building capital-ships. I just see it as being a useful intermediary step in the manufacturing process that adds more player interaction to the economy.
Talking about badges vs licenses is a little off-topic, but without word from the devs, I'm not sure adding a new license is necessarily more work than adding a new badge. Beyond that, using a badge doesn't allow for very granular control over how fast or slow a person advances in manufacturing. My thinking here is that refining ore would be worth a few points, but manufacturing an addon should be worth more. You can't really tell a badge to increment the counter more for an addon than something else.
Talking about badges vs licenses is a little off-topic, but without word from the devs, I'm not sure adding a new license is necessarily more work than adding a new badge. Beyond that, using a badge doesn't allow for very granular control over how fast or slow a person advances in manufacturing. My thinking here is that refining ore would be worth a few points, but manufacturing an addon should be worth more. You can't really tell a badge to increment the counter more for an addon than something else.
Are you saying there is no point to refined ore except to add more tedium to an already fairly tedious part of VO?
Cuz that seems like a waste of a feature.
Cuz that seems like a waste of a feature.
I suppose my suggestion is somewhat rooted in the lack of two very big features. The ability to easily trade large quantities between players and the ability to trade ships. Beyond that is the idea that manufacturing very rarely ever makes use of raw ore. There is always an "intermediary step" before the ore can be used. Transferring thousands of cargo units of anything is a complete pain and also completely off-topic.
When faced with needing 100cu of ore or 10cu of refined ore, that more accurately represents the manufacturing process, what would you rather do? Considering the sizes of ship cargo holds and the actual weights of materials, it makes more sense to add this step. it would also make it easier to produce and trade kits for Superlights (assuming the mission was appropriately updated) which would make them somewhat less rare.
Sure, not everyone enjoys mining or manufacturing. Some people are vehemently against it and would rather just have SpaceQuake. I believe it is Incarnate's desire to evolve the game further and that it not remain SpaceQuake. This is one thing that could be done easily right now rather than waiting for an unknown number of other things to be done first.
When faced with needing 100cu of ore or 10cu of refined ore, that more accurately represents the manufacturing process, what would you rather do? Considering the sizes of ship cargo holds and the actual weights of materials, it makes more sense to add this step. it would also make it easier to produce and trade kits for Superlights (assuming the mission was appropriately updated) which would make them somewhat less rare.
Sure, not everyone enjoys mining or manufacturing. Some people are vehemently against it and would rather just have SpaceQuake. I believe it is Incarnate's desire to evolve the game further and that it not remain SpaceQuake. This is one thing that could be done easily right now rather than waiting for an unknown number of other things to be done first.
KISS.
Usually in order to refine a material additional inputs are in fact required primarily energy followed by small amounts of a catalyst The result may actually be an increase in the volume of the final product.
Say to create 100 crates of purified Xith you might need 90 crates of raw ore along with 50 crates of pyronic and 5 crates of heliocene
Also I believe it was decided that the ore was broken by the mining beam into its component parts which would mean all ore was refined the minute it reaches the mining vessal. I had suggested that mined ore should be held as a mixed cargo with the exact contents unknown to the player until it was taken to a refining station.
One additional consideration is that the Devs have expressed thier lack of interest in creating a "real" economy so I would doubt thier interest in anything except the simple mining we currently have.
Pesonally I feel that a more realistic economy including the mining system would be a better way to drive game events then anything the devs appear to have in mind. YMMV
Say to create 100 crates of purified Xith you might need 90 crates of raw ore along with 50 crates of pyronic and 5 crates of heliocene
Also I believe it was decided that the ore was broken by the mining beam into its component parts which would mean all ore was refined the minute it reaches the mining vessal. I had suggested that mined ore should be held as a mixed cargo with the exact contents unknown to the player until it was taken to a refining station.
One additional consideration is that the Devs have expressed thier lack of interest in creating a "real" economy so I would doubt thier interest in anything except the simple mining we currently have.
Pesonally I feel that a more realistic economy including the mining system would be a better way to drive game events then anything the devs appear to have in mind. YMMV
One practical value to consider is if the manufacturing requirement were lowered in favor of the lower quantity of refined ore.
Less hauling = more manufacturing
Less hauling = more manufacturing
One of the concepts brought up was that as your mining level increased the efficiency of the refining process should increase. After much thought, I think this should no longer be the case. No matter how efficient your process may be, there is really no accounting for the unknown amount of impurities found in each unit of raw ore. It would be better to just leave the established conversion ratios fixed.
The efficiency gain could come from experience/process refinement with a given batch. Conversion ratios improve with amount of ore refined at once. e.g., 50:1 for 100cu, 35:1 for 500cu, 20:1 for 1000cu; 10:1 for 10,000cu.
The efficiency gain could come from experience/process refinement with a given batch. Conversion ratios improve with amount of ore refined at once. e.g., 50:1 for 100cu, 35:1 for 500cu, 20:1 for 1000cu; 10:1 for 10,000cu.
Nice idea Lecter, but your proposed conversion ratios have too much of a spread for my liking.
I would suggest something along the lines of 20:1 for 20cu, 18:1 for 90cu, 15:1 for 300cu, 12:1 for 1,200cu, and 10:1 for 5,000cu as being a bit more reasonable.
I would suggest something along the lines of 20:1 for 20cu, 18:1 for 90cu, 15:1 for 300cu, 12:1 for 1,200cu, and 10:1 for 5,000cu as being a bit more reasonable.
One additional consideration is that the Devs have expressed thier lack of interest in creating a "real" economy
What? Where?
Manufacturing missions and refining could easily fall under the mining license, I don't think there's any need for a specific manufacturing license. Or perhaps rename the mining license to manufacturing license and start awarding experience for manufacturing missions.
What? Where?
Manufacturing missions and refining could easily fall under the mining license, I don't think there's any need for a specific manufacturing license. Or perhaps rename the mining license to manufacturing license and start awarding experience for manufacturing missions.
What can I say, I really like to give miners a good wide spread.
Why not call it "Mining/Manufacturing License"? We already have "Trading/Commerce License".
+1 to the OP for the depth of the idea.