Forums » Suggestions
"Coal Certs" The Solution to vendetta's player trade.
This is a reference to Inc's recent post about player missions for delivery of items as an up coming feature for Vendetta (http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/25999). As a foreword I didn't check if this has been suggested before. If it has, consider this a reminder given the forthcoming update and please post any past suggestion threads on-topic.
So we will have the ability to post missions for the delivery of items to a station at a price etc.. etc.. This is good, but its a serious hamper on any SERIOUS business taking place.
What we need is a way to transfer things en-masse between players without it taking all day. However, it has been brought to my attention a number of times by players like CD and more recently Deathzor that non-dangerous and risky transfers would remove an aspect of the game where trust is required for transactions and where there is no danger. I tend to agree with this.
The solution is a system similar to the old vintage "coal certificates" system they used to have back in the day for Runescape, with a slight addendum to fit with vendetta. Essentially, you allow players to "zip-up" a bundle of items into a single item or a "certificate". This bundle of items then needs to be transferred the normal way and entitles the bearer to ownership the items in that station.
This will take the tediousness out of transferring bulk items, but doesn't eliminate the other gameplay elements that the old system had (trust, danger, etc..). It DOES eliminate the time, which I realise is a factor of danger (i.e. the longer you hang around the more people notice and the more chance of being hit by a pirate etc..) so if this is a consideration then you could have levels of certificates that have "compression ratios" where they only let you transfer a certain amount at one time.
Essentially we already have this system, it's just that the largest compression ratio is 200cu, and it sucks.
What does everyone think?
So we will have the ability to post missions for the delivery of items to a station at a price etc.. etc.. This is good, but its a serious hamper on any SERIOUS business taking place.
What we need is a way to transfer things en-masse between players without it taking all day. However, it has been brought to my attention a number of times by players like CD and more recently Deathzor that non-dangerous and risky transfers would remove an aspect of the game where trust is required for transactions and where there is no danger. I tend to agree with this.
The solution is a system similar to the old vintage "coal certificates" system they used to have back in the day for Runescape, with a slight addendum to fit with vendetta. Essentially, you allow players to "zip-up" a bundle of items into a single item or a "certificate". This bundle of items then needs to be transferred the normal way and entitles the bearer to ownership the items in that station.
This will take the tediousness out of transferring bulk items, but doesn't eliminate the other gameplay elements that the old system had (trust, danger, etc..). It DOES eliminate the time, which I realise is a factor of danger (i.e. the longer you hang around the more people notice and the more chance of being hit by a pirate etc..) so if this is a consideration then you could have levels of certificates that have "compression ratios" where they only let you transfer a certain amount at one time.
Essentially we already have this system, it's just that the largest compression ratio is 200cu, and it sucks.
What does everyone think?
As long as it is bound to the local station (so you can't use it to transport the goods) and must be returned to the station to be redeemed (not just scooped up), I think it is a good idea. The game would need support for having items run a function before the server eliminates them due to floating free for too long, to release the goods back to the original owner in case the certificate is dropped and expires.
There should be a strong fee for creating the certificate as well. That way small transfers in the hundreds of cu range will be cheaper to do the traditional way, while huge ones in the thousands of cu range will be easier via certificate.
There should be a strong fee for creating the certificate as well. That way small transfers in the hundreds of cu range will be cheaper to do the traditional way, while huge ones in the thousands of cu range will be easier via certificate.
Anything that takes the tedium out of P2P trade. Though I still prefer this...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22434#292969
Seems as though it'd be easier.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22434#292969
Seems as though it'd be easier.
I agree with Ryan, though I think it should be a functional part of the 'Bar' rather than just a /code. I'd also like to see the station take a tithe as well.
If you do it smart, there is virtually no danger in a drop and catch trade (even in XC's) at a station (in Grey) with the exception of new players who are still figuring things out.
As far as I'm concerned transferring ownership of inventory should be efficient. The station should already have those goods stored in the current owner's name. The only thing really needed is a transfer of title.
If you do it smart, there is virtually no danger in a drop and catch trade (even in XC's) at a station (in Grey) with the exception of new players who are still figuring things out.
As far as I'm concerned transferring ownership of inventory should be efficient. The station should already have those goods stored in the current owner's name. The only thing really needed is a transfer of title.
-1 to any teleportation of widgets. By proxy, certificate, or any other forms of magix. So like Pizzasgood said: As long as it is bound to the local station (so you can't use it to transport the goods) and must be returned to the station to be redeemed (not just scooped up), I think it is a good idea.
Certificates should be imprinted with the station that the goods are held at and redeemable there. This suggestion is about eliminating tediousness, not magickal fairies and wizard hats.
Well it's not just about that... It also eliminates a lot of risk. The tedium of transferring cargo makes you more open to ambush. The mass of that cargo makes it harder to run, etc. It also means loss of accountability, since both people have to be present. It makes it harder to deal in secret if someone shows up and sees both of you swapping cargo, then it's fairly obvious where you're getting it from. How much that matters depends on who and what of course.
I think you have confused the two suggestions ARF... This suggestion is for a widget that would be transferred in space like any item, and ownership of the widget would grant ownership of prepackaged cargo still at the station. The mass of the cargo transferred in space and the time to transfer would be reduced, but otherwise things would still be much the same. On the other hand, this offers more risk in a way, since someone in a hound could steal a cert for a thousand cu of goods in one swoop and make a speedy exit.
I like the idea, and I see uses for it beyond simply helping to remove some of the tedium from player-to-player trades. It would make it simpler for events to reward kits of various cargo to the winner(s). It would also help organizing cargo at a station, say if you had a load of goods to transfer to someone not currently online, then you could create a bundle to separate it from your other goods at the station for when they do log in (of course, that bundle would still be taking up space in your inventory until transferred).
There are potential issues to work out with the implementation, however. One such example I can think of is Player A creates a bundle which Player B takes ownership of when receiving the cert. If Player B already has their cargo maxed out at the station then they shouldn't be able to add more to their inventory there. The only way I can think of to avoid a potential exploit to exceed the maximum station inventory size is to prevent Player B from picking up the cert in space if doing so would exceed the max.
EDIT: And there is also the issue of someone stealing a cert for cargo at a station they don't have access to. I suppose they could probably find another player to sell the cert to, so it may not be that big of a deal. (They would need to be able to see the contents of the bundle without docking at the station)
EDIT2: Another idea to keep the risk higher would be to make it so the certs cannot be jettisoned in the NFZ. They'd still have to drop on death, though.
I like the idea, and I see uses for it beyond simply helping to remove some of the tedium from player-to-player trades. It would make it simpler for events to reward kits of various cargo to the winner(s). It would also help organizing cargo at a station, say if you had a load of goods to transfer to someone not currently online, then you could create a bundle to separate it from your other goods at the station for when they do log in (of course, that bundle would still be taking up space in your inventory until transferred).
There are potential issues to work out with the implementation, however. One such example I can think of is Player A creates a bundle which Player B takes ownership of when receiving the cert. If Player B already has their cargo maxed out at the station then they shouldn't be able to add more to their inventory there. The only way I can think of to avoid a potential exploit to exceed the maximum station inventory size is to prevent Player B from picking up the cert in space if doing so would exceed the max.
EDIT: And there is also the issue of someone stealing a cert for cargo at a station they don't have access to. I suppose they could probably find another player to sell the cert to, so it may not be that big of a deal. (They would need to be able to see the contents of the bundle without docking at the station)
EDIT2: Another idea to keep the risk higher would be to make it so the certs cannot be jettisoned in the NFZ. They'd still have to drop on death, though.
Echo what meridian said, excellent points.
I disagree that the prolonged tediousness of transferring bulk items creates additional risk. The risk is completely limited to 200cu's at a time. If someone comes to try and pirate your large transaction, all they will ever have a hope at really stealing is the 200cu, and even that is extremely difficult.
This scenario makes things much more dangerous, you risk losing the whole lot in a bad transaction, but isn't tedious in transferring.
Further on that note. Even if it is a little less risky, so what? We need this for the player economy to actually work.
I disagree that the prolonged tediousness of transferring bulk items creates additional risk. The risk is completely limited to 200cu's at a time. If someone comes to try and pirate your large transaction, all they will ever have a hope at really stealing is the 200cu, and even that is extremely difficult.
This scenario makes things much more dangerous, you risk losing the whole lot in a bad transaction, but isn't tedious in transferring.
Further on that note. Even if it is a little less risky, so what? We need this for the player economy to actually work.
200 cu of the right good, e.g. gauss, can still be a valuable steal. And if they're doing it the slow way you're a lot more likely to stumble upon them trading, see the transactions happening, and have time to try to do something about it. With certs, the transfer can happen too quickly. So the risk of the buyer/seller stabbing you in the back is higher, while the risk of a third party interfering is lower.
But if the devs insist on the absurd quantities of goods needed to make a capship, I don't see any better way to make trade practical while maintaining risk and the sort of direct interaction you get by flying out into space and picking up the item the other guy dropped. The numbers will only get worse when we start building real capital ships and not these silly little Tridents.
But if the devs insist on the absurd quantities of goods needed to make a capship, I don't see any better way to make trade practical while maintaining risk and the sort of direct interaction you get by flying out into space and picking up the item the other guy dropped. The numbers will only get worse when we start building real capital ships and not these silly little Tridents.
Doesn't it seem plausible that a ship could be bundled in this certificate?
Heh, I know what this is for now. Regaining tons of faction standing super fast without having the haul/transfer the goods in open space.
Under this system SOMEBODY would have to haul the goods in open space. It only modifys the transfer process. And yes why couldn't you trade "pink slips" for ships
I admit it removes some of the tedium. It doesn't provide a solution to the tedium of transfer that continues to plague any serious manufacturing or cargo hauler people. The tedium of getting all parties to the station for the transfer at the same time. Maybe something in the expanded mission system will cover that though.
Aye, for that I suggest maybe a drop bos system where you can leave certificates for others to collect.