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Sparked by recent conversations in the RP forum, I thought I would post this here. This is an e-mail I sent to Inc some time ago. It's a detailed (read: long) write up on my experiences in PvP from Serco and Itani points of view over the last 4-5 years. I thought I would open it up to gather some feedback from other players.
I've been playing your game for some 4-5 years now and the one thing that keeps me coming back is the PvP. It's endlessly entertaining and creates infinite possibilities. When there are players online, PvP makes Vendetta the most enjoyable game I have ever played by far. That being said, with things beginning to speed up, I thought I would put together my observations from several years of PvP experience in the hopes that they might be helpful.
There are things that need attention in the nature of PvP in order for Vendetta to be successful on a larger scale. Some of these things you may be aware of, others you may not. The observations that I am reporting to you have been tested many times over by me personally as well as several other long time players who can testify to their validity. There are other factors I'm not yet certain of that I will omit for the time, leaving only things that I am absolutely sure of in this e-mail. Most of my comments will focus on Itani/Serco conflict as that is where the majority of my experience lies. That and Pirate/UIT combat seems to be pretty well balanced. So here we go:
The nature of group PvP strongly favors the Itani, hands down.
The nature of single combat PvP favors the Serco, while they have a much more difficult time in group combat.
The problem: As the game expands, group combat is becoming more and more important while single combat (no 3rd player/bot interference) occurs less often. Thus, the Itani become much stronger/easier to play than the Serco.
This is a statement that I do not make lightly and can truly say this with confidence. I've spent a long time on both sides and feel that I can accurately compare the two. Here is the situation: The problem results mainly from the choice of ships available. In single combat, the Serco prometheus rules. With two pilots of equal skill, the Skycommand Prometheus will win 99% of the time. However, in group combat, the prom becomes drastically more difficult to use. This is a problem that hasn't been seen very much due to the rarity of group combat in the past. As the game improves and we see more group situations and, conversely, less single combat situations of significance, this problem has and will become more and more apparent. As 1 on 1 fights become increasingly rare, with an increase of players and due to group combat activities the Serco strength decreases dramatically. Allow me to elaborate:
In group combat, speed is king. The ability to engage and disengage at will is far superior to the ability to dominate a single engagement. This puts the Itani at a distinct advantage. As Ghost, in a valk, I can close distance, engage my target and turbo away before he is able to turn to face me. As I disengage, my wingmen are able to do the same. The result is a single target being attacked from all sides, unable to damage its attackers. The escape? Speed of course, which the prom doesn't have. Neither do the Serco have anything that can adequately pursue. The prom has to sit where it is and fend off its attackers. It can do this very well with just one attacker, but when the numbers increase it becomes only a matter of time before death.
Throw bots into the equation, like in the BS missions, and the prom is just about useless by itself. While lighter ships can ignore the bots, using their speed to keep them safe, the prom actually has to turn and engage each one which uses its ninja dodging skills to make killing it a time consuming ordeal. This means any presence of bots in group combat plays directly into the Itani strength.
Now I know what you're thinking, this is skill related. And you're absolutely right. But the problem is that this hit and run tactic is relatively easy to learn and only takes minimal practice to perform well. Elite pilots make it devastating. The Serco are, in turn, required to stay together and use their firepower to fend off the attacks which are coming from all angles. This is VERY difficult to learn, even harder to pull off and at best, moderately effective. It's a losing battle. If one gets separated, he's done for. Pilots must constantly cover their wingmen and constantly be aware of their positioning. This takes VERY aware/skilled pilots, a lot of coordination and even more communication. When done correctly, it is effective, but it is so very difficult to perform that most give up before they can accomplish it and is arguably still less powerful than the Itani hit and run tactic. Even when this is done well, a well coordinated Itani group is still able to pick off the Serco one by one through simple hit and run attacks. Being a Serco in a prom in group combat feels much like being a sitting duck. As a result, in simpler terms, the situation could be summed up as such:
Itani PvP difficulty: Moderate
Serco PvP difficulty: Expert
In short, the Itani pilot needs only to use his speed to keep distance between himself and his enemies in order to survive, which can be done easily. Thus, the Itani in combat can focus most of his attention on his targets and very little on his wingmen, provided they do the same (using their speed to attack only when it is safe). The Serco pilot must be constantly aware of his wingmen, their position, who is attacking them and who is attacking him. If he fails to do any of this, either he or his wingmen will quickly be singled out and destroyed. Most importantly, the Serco can choose nothing about his engagement. He must fight when the fight comes to him, which is usually when the attacker has the upper hand, and cannot reposition or flee to safety while his wingmen come to his aid.
The other option for the Serco is to fly the Vulture Guardian, but that's a losing battle also as they are then forced to play to the Itani strength, a battle of speed and agility, which the valk and the IBG are superior at. So the Serco must either choose to be sitting ducks, fending off attacks for as long as they can in their proms, or try to out maneuver the Itani albeit with inferior equipment.
You could say that the potential is balanced but the ability to reach their potential is not.
Conclusion: The Serco need something to help them in group combat.
Problem: Strengthening the prom cannot be the answer. It's already the strongest single combat PvP ship, there's no question there. It's just simply too difficult to use effectively in group combat and the Serco have no other option but to use it as it is still the best tool available to them. The Serco need something else that can make them compete in group combat. They're just too difficult compared to the Itani. Unfortunately, I don't yet have a solution for this, just ideas. At the risk of making it overpowered, a player manned turret could greatly help the prom in group combat. It should have a wide firing arc and preferably be a real gat turret. It sounds strong, but I think it would be balanced by the fact that it takes 2 players to operate.
I would strongly support lowering the turbo drain of the Serco vulture guardian regardless. It still wouldn't be as fast as the valk, but would be more able to pursue the hit and run attackers and give the Serco something of decent mobility. Perhaps a new class of ship, a heavier destroyer type vessel could be added for Serco only. Or a heavier armored, more expensive prometheus with a player manned turret. After I've given you time to read this, I'll post some of these on the suggestions forum.
I hope I was able to shed some light on some things. I earnestly believe that this is a problem that needs attention before the game is more commercially advertised. It's why there is an aversion to the Serco. Among other reasons, they are absolutely more difficult to play. That's why so many players end up switching sides to an "easier" nation. I think you'll find these sentiments echoed by other players as well.
I feel confident that I can demonstrate these points repeatedly. If you'd like to witness some of these situations so you can see for yourself, I'd be happy to help. Give me a couple of my guildmates and I know I can demonstrate the current Itani superiority in group combat without difficulty upon request. Additionally, if you'd like to discuss any of this, I'd be happy to provide any more input that you need.
Cheers and thanks for a great game!
Edit:
The current list of solutions from page 5 of this thread is included below. An "x" denotes a vote that has been cast against an idea.
***Edit: We're now tallying +1 votes for ideas in a separate thread for organizational purposes: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23651?page=#294693
Possible Solutions:
xx1. Add a ship for the Itani and a ship for the Serco to balance the difference.
xxxx8. Increase spin torque for SCP and Prom3 while decreasing armor. (modified to include armor nerf)
xxx11. Increase weight of the valk.
x12. Prom3 (or new variant) idea:
Drop it's armor from 16.5K to 14-15K
Drop it's cargo cap from 28 to 6-10.
Now, decrease it's weight from 9500 to 8-8.5K
Bump it's turbo speed to 220.
(Possibly) Give it a thinner facing profile (ie the X-1's shorter profile)
13. Increase turbo drain of valk vengeance and X1, decrease armor of IDF valk
Discarded Ideas:
xxxxxxx3. Decrease the thrust of the valk while increasing the armor. (removed due to abundance of votes against)
xxxxx4. Increase the turbo thrust of the proms while decreasing their normal thrust slightly.(removed due to abundance of votes against)
xxxxx5. Give the prom a new turret. One that is much more effective than current player controlled turrets. (removed due to abundance of votes against)
x6. Lower turbo drain of SVG (removed due to similarity to 2)
7. Drop armor of valks but leave thrust the same. (replaced with 13)
x9. Reduce valks turbo thrust, increase drain. (replaced with 13)
xxxxx10. Drop armor of SCP and prom 3 but reduce turbo drain as well. (removed due to abundance of votes against)
Implemented Ideas: (Can still be voted against)
xx2. A combination of buffs to the SVG: Decrease the turbo drain of the SVG and/or increase the turbo thrust and/or boost max speeds. (Now in game! SVG has had drain reduced. You can still vote against this idea if you do not care for it)
We've got a lot of good options here. Let's start trying to eliminate some.
I've been playing your game for some 4-5 years now and the one thing that keeps me coming back is the PvP. It's endlessly entertaining and creates infinite possibilities. When there are players online, PvP makes Vendetta the most enjoyable game I have ever played by far. That being said, with things beginning to speed up, I thought I would put together my observations from several years of PvP experience in the hopes that they might be helpful.
There are things that need attention in the nature of PvP in order for Vendetta to be successful on a larger scale. Some of these things you may be aware of, others you may not. The observations that I am reporting to you have been tested many times over by me personally as well as several other long time players who can testify to their validity. There are other factors I'm not yet certain of that I will omit for the time, leaving only things that I am absolutely sure of in this e-mail. Most of my comments will focus on Itani/Serco conflict as that is where the majority of my experience lies. That and Pirate/UIT combat seems to be pretty well balanced. So here we go:
The nature of group PvP strongly favors the Itani, hands down.
The nature of single combat PvP favors the Serco, while they have a much more difficult time in group combat.
The problem: As the game expands, group combat is becoming more and more important while single combat (no 3rd player/bot interference) occurs less often. Thus, the Itani become much stronger/easier to play than the Serco.
This is a statement that I do not make lightly and can truly say this with confidence. I've spent a long time on both sides and feel that I can accurately compare the two. Here is the situation: The problem results mainly from the choice of ships available. In single combat, the Serco prometheus rules. With two pilots of equal skill, the Skycommand Prometheus will win 99% of the time. However, in group combat, the prom becomes drastically more difficult to use. This is a problem that hasn't been seen very much due to the rarity of group combat in the past. As the game improves and we see more group situations and, conversely, less single combat situations of significance, this problem has and will become more and more apparent. As 1 on 1 fights become increasingly rare, with an increase of players and due to group combat activities the Serco strength decreases dramatically. Allow me to elaborate:
In group combat, speed is king. The ability to engage and disengage at will is far superior to the ability to dominate a single engagement. This puts the Itani at a distinct advantage. As Ghost, in a valk, I can close distance, engage my target and turbo away before he is able to turn to face me. As I disengage, my wingmen are able to do the same. The result is a single target being attacked from all sides, unable to damage its attackers. The escape? Speed of course, which the prom doesn't have. Neither do the Serco have anything that can adequately pursue. The prom has to sit where it is and fend off its attackers. It can do this very well with just one attacker, but when the numbers increase it becomes only a matter of time before death.
Throw bots into the equation, like in the BS missions, and the prom is just about useless by itself. While lighter ships can ignore the bots, using their speed to keep them safe, the prom actually has to turn and engage each one which uses its ninja dodging skills to make killing it a time consuming ordeal. This means any presence of bots in group combat plays directly into the Itani strength.
Now I know what you're thinking, this is skill related. And you're absolutely right. But the problem is that this hit and run tactic is relatively easy to learn and only takes minimal practice to perform well. Elite pilots make it devastating. The Serco are, in turn, required to stay together and use their firepower to fend off the attacks which are coming from all angles. This is VERY difficult to learn, even harder to pull off and at best, moderately effective. It's a losing battle. If one gets separated, he's done for. Pilots must constantly cover their wingmen and constantly be aware of their positioning. This takes VERY aware/skilled pilots, a lot of coordination and even more communication. When done correctly, it is effective, but it is so very difficult to perform that most give up before they can accomplish it and is arguably still less powerful than the Itani hit and run tactic. Even when this is done well, a well coordinated Itani group is still able to pick off the Serco one by one through simple hit and run attacks. Being a Serco in a prom in group combat feels much like being a sitting duck. As a result, in simpler terms, the situation could be summed up as such:
Itani PvP difficulty: Moderate
Serco PvP difficulty: Expert
In short, the Itani pilot needs only to use his speed to keep distance between himself and his enemies in order to survive, which can be done easily. Thus, the Itani in combat can focus most of his attention on his targets and very little on his wingmen, provided they do the same (using their speed to attack only when it is safe). The Serco pilot must be constantly aware of his wingmen, their position, who is attacking them and who is attacking him. If he fails to do any of this, either he or his wingmen will quickly be singled out and destroyed. Most importantly, the Serco can choose nothing about his engagement. He must fight when the fight comes to him, which is usually when the attacker has the upper hand, and cannot reposition or flee to safety while his wingmen come to his aid.
The other option for the Serco is to fly the Vulture Guardian, but that's a losing battle also as they are then forced to play to the Itani strength, a battle of speed and agility, which the valk and the IBG are superior at. So the Serco must either choose to be sitting ducks, fending off attacks for as long as they can in their proms, or try to out maneuver the Itani albeit with inferior equipment.
You could say that the potential is balanced but the ability to reach their potential is not.
Conclusion: The Serco need something to help them in group combat.
Problem: Strengthening the prom cannot be the answer. It's already the strongest single combat PvP ship, there's no question there. It's just simply too difficult to use effectively in group combat and the Serco have no other option but to use it as it is still the best tool available to them. The Serco need something else that can make them compete in group combat. They're just too difficult compared to the Itani. Unfortunately, I don't yet have a solution for this, just ideas. At the risk of making it overpowered, a player manned turret could greatly help the prom in group combat. It should have a wide firing arc and preferably be a real gat turret. It sounds strong, but I think it would be balanced by the fact that it takes 2 players to operate.
I would strongly support lowering the turbo drain of the Serco vulture guardian regardless. It still wouldn't be as fast as the valk, but would be more able to pursue the hit and run attackers and give the Serco something of decent mobility. Perhaps a new class of ship, a heavier destroyer type vessel could be added for Serco only. Or a heavier armored, more expensive prometheus with a player manned turret. After I've given you time to read this, I'll post some of these on the suggestions forum.
I hope I was able to shed some light on some things. I earnestly believe that this is a problem that needs attention before the game is more commercially advertised. It's why there is an aversion to the Serco. Among other reasons, they are absolutely more difficult to play. That's why so many players end up switching sides to an "easier" nation. I think you'll find these sentiments echoed by other players as well.
I feel confident that I can demonstrate these points repeatedly. If you'd like to witness some of these situations so you can see for yourself, I'd be happy to help. Give me a couple of my guildmates and I know I can demonstrate the current Itani superiority in group combat without difficulty upon request. Additionally, if you'd like to discuss any of this, I'd be happy to provide any more input that you need.
Cheers and thanks for a great game!
Edit:
The current list of solutions from page 5 of this thread is included below. An "x" denotes a vote that has been cast against an idea.
***Edit: We're now tallying +1 votes for ideas in a separate thread for organizational purposes: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23651?page=#294693
Possible Solutions:
xx1. Add a ship for the Itani and a ship for the Serco to balance the difference.
xxxx8. Increase spin torque for SCP and Prom3 while decreasing armor. (modified to include armor nerf)
xxx11. Increase weight of the valk.
x12. Prom3 (or new variant) idea:
Drop it's armor from 16.5K to 14-15K
Drop it's cargo cap from 28 to 6-10.
Now, decrease it's weight from 9500 to 8-8.5K
Bump it's turbo speed to 220.
(Possibly) Give it a thinner facing profile (ie the X-1's shorter profile)
13. Increase turbo drain of valk vengeance and X1, decrease armor of IDF valk
Discarded Ideas:
xxxxxxx3. Decrease the thrust of the valk while increasing the armor. (removed due to abundance of votes against)
xxxxx4. Increase the turbo thrust of the proms while decreasing their normal thrust slightly.(removed due to abundance of votes against)
xxxxx5. Give the prom a new turret. One that is much more effective than current player controlled turrets. (removed due to abundance of votes against)
x6. Lower turbo drain of SVG (removed due to similarity to 2)
7. Drop armor of valks but leave thrust the same. (replaced with 13)
x9. Reduce valks turbo thrust, increase drain. (replaced with 13)
xxxxx10. Drop armor of SCP and prom 3 but reduce turbo drain as well. (removed due to abundance of votes against)
Implemented Ideas: (Can still be voted against)
xx2. A combination of buffs to the SVG: Decrease the turbo drain of the SVG and/or increase the turbo thrust and/or boost max speeds. (Now in game! SVG has had drain reduced. You can still vote against this idea if you do not care for it)
We've got a lot of good options here. Let's start trying to eliminate some.
Addendum: Something that could drastically help group combat for Serco is the ability to have a hotkey that will "target your target's target" as well as a hotkey to "target the last player that damaged your target". This would make the coordination that is so important for Serco players much easier.
I agree with this. Personally I feel what would help the most it to give both sides their own unique ships that cover a full range of uses with comparable stats and abilities.
The Serco need something else that can make them compete in group combat.
False. Nerf the Valks' speed/thrust some while upping its armor some. There's currently zero reason to pick an IBG over an IDF/X1; this is not the case with a SVG vs. a SCP.
Though slapping a rear-facing turret position onto the SCP would help.
False. Nerf the Valks' speed/thrust some while upping its armor some. There's currently zero reason to pick an IBG over an IDF/X1; this is not the case with a SVG vs. a SCP.
Though slapping a rear-facing turret position onto the SCP would help.
Interesting. Although only an average pilot I would tend to support your observations.
Hopefully a greater focus on the war in deneb ( which I appreciate is in the pipeline ) would let us see how things work out in practice.
Hopefully a greater focus on the war in deneb ( which I appreciate is in the pipeline ) would let us see how things work out in practice.
False. Nerf the Valks' speed/thrust some while upping its armor some. There's currently zero reason to pick an IBG over an IDF/X1; this is not the case with a SVG vs. a SCP.
I would support this. It would require some playing around with and small tweaks here and there before we get the balance right, but it might help a great deal in balancing group combat. Valk should be more of a balanced all-purpose fighter while the IBG should outperform the valk in speed and maneuverability.
For the Star Wars junkies, X-Wing vs. A-Wing?
I would support this. It would require some playing around with and small tweaks here and there before we get the balance right, but it might help a great deal in balancing group combat. Valk should be more of a balanced all-purpose fighter while the IBG should outperform the valk in speed and maneuverability.
For the Star Wars junkies, X-Wing vs. A-Wing?
I support the nerfing of the speed/thrust +armor suggestion
I also like the idea of the SCP (and SCP only) having a rear facing turret I think that could make the prom a very scary foe with fire crackers or at least give it the ability to cover its ass with a shield turret
I also like the idea of the SCP (and SCP only) having a rear facing turret I think that could make the prom a very scary foe with fire crackers or at least give it the ability to cover its ass with a shield turret
I would rather see a real gat turret than a shield turret. It would help make up for its slow turning ability. It would be overpowered in 1 on 1 combat, but one has to keep in mind it's technically a 1 v 2 with two pilots in the same ship. In which case, the turret needs to be effective enough that there's a reason to have a player in the turret at all as opposed to flying a second ship.
The prom isnt right until it takes 2 people to kill it as far as I am concerned.
It should make people run away.
+1 Prom aft gat turret
It should make people run away.
+1 Prom aft gat turret
I'm troubled by several AGTs being possible a single ship. The AGT is not a very well-designed weapon, from a technical standpoint, and causes a relatively large amount of network spam. But, maybe a variant with a reduced firing rate? Or perhaps a Neutron turret with an increased firing rate and a wider auto-aim radius? I imagine a lot of the potential benefit for turret usage is the auto-aim threshold.
This topic might deserve its own thread.
I'm not against tweaking the valk(s) and tying that into some national exclusivity.
This topic might deserve its own thread.
I'm not against tweaking the valk(s) and tying that into some national exclusivity.
It's alright if it's not an AGT. Like you said, the aa radius is what's really important. Neuts are terrible for turrets because they require much more accurate aim, which is near impossible when you're in a turret and not piloting. I would suggest something along the lines of what you mentioned. A rapid fire neutron blaster with heavily increased firing rate similar to that of the gat turret, wide auto aim radius similar to the gat turret, but severely decreased damage. Maybe 100 damage a hit.
If we are putting a turret on the prom, the balance that we need to aim for should be such that 2 pilots in the same SCP are an equal match for 2 attackers in separate ships, while 1 lone pilot in a SCP is still at a reasonable disadvantage when fighting 2 pilots at the same time.
Note: This should not be equipable in a normal port and should only be used for turrets.
If we are putting a turret on the prom, the balance that we need to aim for should be such that 2 pilots in the same SCP are an equal match for 2 attackers in separate ships, while 1 lone pilot in a SCP is still at a reasonable disadvantage when fighting 2 pilots at the same time.
Note: This should not be equipable in a normal port and should only be used for turrets.
@Inc.: old hive posis in the rear turret ;)
Would it be too overpowered to have a turret with the above mentioned modified neut on primary fire and a firecracker on secondary fire? (with limited ammo of course)
so after ghost details how speed is key everyone completely ignores the idea of giving the serco a ship that is comparable in speed to the valk and instead suggests they get a turret so they can do what? Still be sitting ducks except with a turret on them now?
after 1000s of years i think both sides would learn to adapt a bit and the serco would realize they need a group pvp ship and the itani a bomber
after 1000s of years i think both sides would learn to adapt a bit and the serco would realize they need a group pvp ship and the itani a bomber
I've been saying that for very long time Peytros.
That would be another way to balance it out, yes. But what I was shooting for is trying to balance it so that one nation has different strengths and weaknesses than the other. We want to increase the strength of one nation to balance its weakness. Not remove the weaknesses from both nations. Just filling in the gaps on all sides does balance the equation, but it also leads to a homogenized style of combat that I was hoping to avoid. If we do add an assault craft for the Itani, it should still be not as good an assault craft as the prom. Likewise, if we add a fast group combat ship for the Serco, it should still be not as good as the Valk.
If we're still shooting for an MMO/FPS hybrid, we want greater variation between the nations, not less. If we want to let go of the MMO aspect and make it a straight up FPS, then by all means fill in the gaps and make it equal.
If we're still shooting for an MMO/FPS hybrid, we want greater variation between the nations, not less. If we want to let go of the MMO aspect and make it a straight up FPS, then by all means fill in the gaps and make it equal.
I completely agree with Ghost. I wouldn't mind changing the Valk around instead of the Prom, but I'm sure there are many ways to fix this, we just have to pick the best one. :)
If you add a turret or create a turreted prom, is the pilot manning the turret going to be able to perform effectively with all of the maneuvering that goes on in a typical dogfight? It seems to me that it would be a significant difference in ones ability to target when compared to manning one on a behemoth.
One of the best OP's I've read in a very long time here. I lean towards tweaking the Valk a bit.
One of the best OP's I've read in a very long time here. I lean towards tweaking the Valk a bit.
@Death Fluffy: You bring up a good point. This is why the turret needs to have a large auto aim radius and a rapid rate of fire albeit low damage. Hopefully, it will make up for the difficulty of aiming while not in control of the ship. The firing arc is also very important. It should be able to cover a wide area behind the prom, while still leaving a small portion on the sides and top blind.
Im all for each side having strengths and weaknesses but it still seems ridiculous that one side would completely overlook bombers and another side would completely overlook interceptors.
Should an Itani bomber have as much armor and thrust as a Serco bomber? No.
Should a Serco interceptor have as much speed and maneuverability as an Itani ship? No.
Should each side have their own? Yes.
I do like the idea for the turret on a Prom, my only issue is that with the player base it having a use would be limited.
Should an Itani bomber have as much armor and thrust as a Serco bomber? No.
Should a Serco interceptor have as much speed and maneuverability as an Itani ship? No.
Should each side have their own? Yes.
I do like the idea for the turret on a Prom, my only issue is that with the player base it having a use would be limited.