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It's a very common thought that flares as they stand in the game need some kind of nerf, but no one has ever agreed on what said nerf should be. Almost every ship currently in the game has at least one flare on it, and the damn things dominate in 1v1 combat (although they shouldn't be able to by themselves). Flares should keep their role as a support weapon but should maintain just a little bit of 1v1 prowess, but not enough for them to keep a monopoly on all ship combos. I did some experimenting against some flare rigs today and I made a quick generalization of flare and anti-flare combat. Flare vs. energy is all about distance control; the flare has two dead zones and a kill zone:
The first dead zone is long range: (around >200m) This dead zone varies between opponents and isn't a complete dead zone. This is the only reasonable goal for energy fighters as energy vs flare combat stands today and it is a dead zone because this is where the defender has enough reaction time to dodge the flare in all cases. Depending on the opponent, this range is impossible to maintain without a good distance control ship like the CV... if the flare user has a CV, themselves, then you might as well ram yourself to death against a 'roid. This is a reasonable distance in most cases, in some cases the pursuit of it can draw out the fight and make it really boring, and in some cases (most outrageously) it is impossible to maintain.
Kill zone for the flare (around <150m most likely less): This is where flares are pretty difficult to dodge fired by the right person... to most eyes this would seem like "short range" and it is, but not as short range as the second dead zone for flares. It is also the easiest range to maintain by the flare user because this is about the range energy fighters jump to when they want to speed up the fight.
Second dead zone for flares (<10m or so): This is where the flare physically cannot detonate due to the timed fuse on it, and it is like... seriously f***ing close, like collision f***ing damage close, and that's f***ing close. I did some experimentation and this can actually be achieved in combat, but it's really difficult to maintain for more than like... one second, hoping you can get in and out of there without eating flare stun in the kill zone and that you can actually focus on aiming and firing while trying to pull this maneuver. Despite futility, however, I actually found it quite fun and challenging to trick the flare user in going full speed ahead and then cranking it into close range combat. A few times, flares being fired at me in this range would fly right past me... but most of the time that dead zone is so small that a single fin sticking outside of it would catch the flare as it's leaving.
Solution: Increase the close range dead zone. For energy users in a distance control scenario against them, they can still have this option. As it stands, this zone is theoretically usable but it's just ridiculously small. This change would not eliminate the use of flares as a support weapon, it would not eliminate it as a 1v1 weapon, it's not an incredibly noticeable nerf, it simply provides a fun secondary countermeasure against flares for energy users.
-Chaakin Tockoa
The first dead zone is long range: (around >200m) This dead zone varies between opponents and isn't a complete dead zone. This is the only reasonable goal for energy fighters as energy vs flare combat stands today and it is a dead zone because this is where the defender has enough reaction time to dodge the flare in all cases. Depending on the opponent, this range is impossible to maintain without a good distance control ship like the CV... if the flare user has a CV, themselves, then you might as well ram yourself to death against a 'roid. This is a reasonable distance in most cases, in some cases the pursuit of it can draw out the fight and make it really boring, and in some cases (most outrageously) it is impossible to maintain.
Kill zone for the flare (around <150m most likely less): This is where flares are pretty difficult to dodge fired by the right person... to most eyes this would seem like "short range" and it is, but not as short range as the second dead zone for flares. It is also the easiest range to maintain by the flare user because this is about the range energy fighters jump to when they want to speed up the fight.
Second dead zone for flares (<10m or so): This is where the flare physically cannot detonate due to the timed fuse on it, and it is like... seriously f***ing close, like collision f***ing damage close, and that's f***ing close. I did some experimentation and this can actually be achieved in combat, but it's really difficult to maintain for more than like... one second, hoping you can get in and out of there without eating flare stun in the kill zone and that you can actually focus on aiming and firing while trying to pull this maneuver. Despite futility, however, I actually found it quite fun and challenging to trick the flare user in going full speed ahead and then cranking it into close range combat. A few times, flares being fired at me in this range would fly right past me... but most of the time that dead zone is so small that a single fin sticking outside of it would catch the flare as it's leaving.
Solution: Increase the close range dead zone. For energy users in a distance control scenario against them, they can still have this option. As it stands, this zone is theoretically usable but it's just ridiculously small. This change would not eliminate the use of flares as a support weapon, it would not eliminate it as a 1v1 weapon, it's not an incredibly noticeable nerf, it simply provides a fun secondary countermeasure against flares for energy users.
-Chaakin Tockoa
Although I expect I'm tanking your suggestion just for saying so, I agree completely. It's impossible to stay within the safe range of a flare against light craft, they have too much thrust and too mush speed. Inside a flare on a heavy is easy. Perhaps increase the safe detonation radius on all S port flares.
Tumble, you were around for Icarus. Shame on you for agreeing with this--flares have already been balanced many times over, and little ole Sharky here has no fucking clue how much nastier they could be.
I'm glad there are those who love the unassisted energy play--it's a very zen experience, I'm sure. But don't make the mistake of thinking that's the only way of doing PvP that's valid.
I'm glad there are those who love the unassisted energy play--it's a very zen experience, I'm sure. But don't make the mistake of thinking that's the only way of doing PvP that's valid.
I'm commenting based on the prevalence of flare+energy load outs. Fact is, almost everyone who flies a light fight with energy + flare never actually hits anything with the energy wep. Flares may not be unbalanced as a weapon on their own, but they are an unbalancing element, they're the AGT of unguided weapons. Without flares, several prominent and high PK count pilots wouldn't stand a chance. Maybe that's a good thing. Flares give weak pilots a leg to stand on, much as agt does. Unfortunately those pilots can only stand up in a multi, 1v1 they fall down regardless of their weapons. This is a twitch based PvP game. It's why I play VO instead of Eve or WoW. In my opinion the best pilot should win most of the time. Unfortunately VO more often gives the advantage to load out instead of skill.
no tumble, their much better than the agt. granted this is coming from sombody so bad at dodging flares as to let it cut my playtime WAY down, simply put, it's not fun fighting against that many flares every fucking time.
I think Imp put it right when he said it was the S-port rockets that needed a larger CR dead zone. When you fight a heavy ship you can get really close and avoid the flares but not so with a light.
On the other hand, a light with flares is heavy and so has bigger turn-around times which allows you to shoot it more.
The bonus to not having a larger CR danger zone is that the flares hurts the firing ship more than you when you are in close. If you are flying something with paper tissue instead of armour, that is not a valid option in the end I know.
So, could we try upping the CR dead zone to maybe 30 metres? That would be sweet. Pony time:)
On the other hand, a light with flares is heavy and so has bigger turn-around times which allows you to shoot it more.
The bonus to not having a larger CR danger zone is that the flares hurts the firing ship more than you when you are in close. If you are flying something with paper tissue instead of armour, that is not a valid option in the end I know.
So, could we try upping the CR dead zone to maybe 30 metres? That would be sweet. Pony time:)
30 meters, no.
My reasoning behind this is that the splash radius is there for a reason, and halving that isn't good. Plus, it's exactly the proximity radius. If we want to punish ramming (not the literal kind), we must make the safety zone radius smaller than the proximity radius.
20 meters.
My reasoning behind this is that the splash radius is there for a reason, and halving that isn't good. Plus, it's exactly the proximity radius. If we want to punish ramming (not the literal kind), we must make the safety zone radius smaller than the proximity radius.
20 meters.
sounds reasonable. I was just pulling a number out of my hat. Look, pony!
/me eats the pony
Wrong!
Long time ago, flares had no safety zone or backsplash at all. Triflares were terribly effective. Devs tried to balance this and instituted safety range and backsplash damage.
Sunflare safety range is around 30 m.
Starflare and iceflare safety range is around 10 m.
Backsplash damage is 2x the damage dealt to your target if you hit it at close range.
As splash damage radius for flares is 60m, when you hit a target at 30m or even closer (stars and ices) you receive quite a backsplash damage yourself.
Long time ago, flares had no safety zone or backsplash at all. Triflares were terribly effective. Devs tried to balance this and instituted safety range and backsplash damage.
Sunflare safety range is around 30 m.
Starflare and iceflare safety range is around 10 m.
Backsplash damage is 2x the damage dealt to your target if you hit it at close range.
As splash damage radius for flares is 60m, when you hit a target at 30m or even closer (stars and ices) you receive quite a backsplash damage yourself.
Bojan, correct. But the Sunflare is arguably the most potent one, and used slightly more often than Ice- or Starflares. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So I'm shaping numbers for Sunflares and not the lesser of the bunch, which see less use, and where the effects aren't quite so noticeable.
20 meters.
So I'm shaping numbers for Sunflares and not the lesser of the bunch, which see less use, and where the effects aren't quite so noticeable.
20 meters.
In my opinion the best pilot should win most of the time.
You're confusing two different types of piloting skill -- or rather mischaracterizing the ability to put unassisted energy on hull plate as the only skill that counts -- which is not surprising given your relative abilities. However, dropping flares into an opponent's flight path is nothing like mashing an AGT trigger and chasing the little yellow birdie. Think of it as slow twitch versus fast twitch skill if you like, but the same calculations are involved in putting pain on target. Flares just require thinking further ahead in time.
And 'Zumi is hereby renamed Catherine the Great. Fucking ponies.
You're confusing two different types of piloting skill -- or rather mischaracterizing the ability to put unassisted energy on hull plate as the only skill that counts -- which is not surprising given your relative abilities. However, dropping flares into an opponent's flight path is nothing like mashing an AGT trigger and chasing the little yellow birdie. Think of it as slow twitch versus fast twitch skill if you like, but the same calculations are involved in putting pain on target. Flares just require thinking further ahead in time.
And 'Zumi is hereby renamed Catherine the Great. Fucking ponies.
some balancing could be used for duel flare set ups. i know i am a prominint single flare user but seriously you slap two flares on something it becomes close to undodgeable
whiny babies
ShankTank, I wouldn't be opposed to this idea. People often ask me to train them to dodge flares, and you're right, staying in close enough to stay inside the flare safety zone is an option. However, it is an option that pretty much doesn't work at all right now against an experienced "flarer". It can be easily compensated for once I identify it as their tactic. Increasing the fuse distance or time a bit might make that tactic work a bit better.
Also, do we know if the safety is based on time or distance? I was never sure. Increasing the distance or time a bit might be interesting, and would certainly increase the effectiveness of the "stay really close" tactic.
That aside, I think you're making some false assumptions. Flares do not "dominate" 1 on 1 PvP combat. As a matter of fact, some of the current best PvP'ers do not use flares and can easily defeat flare setups. The 2 best PvP'ers of the last year or so, in my opinion, are Denji and Maalik. Both primarily use all-energy setups, and both can easily dodge flares at less than 150m. Unless you're extremely good at flare aiming, flares are nearly useless against these players. ShankTank, I've also seen you in-game as Chaakin defeating people of equal experience to you who are using flare setups. So, by that logic, the current implementation of flares does not give a clear advantage over other setups. An equally experienced flare user and all-energy user seem to be about matched, on average. Isn't that how it should be? Of course, if you are going up against a flare user who has more PvP experience than you, I wouldn't expect you to win. You can't expect to be able to defeat every single player who uses flares with your all-energy setup, only the ones who you are more experienced than. Right? Flares require skill and practice to use effectively. If they didn't, then anyone could use them and be approximately evenly matched with every other flare user, regardless of experience. That's not the case. Like most other weapons in VO, aiming flares is a bit of an art, as is dodging them.
If we all flew in the same setup, it would be boring. If you can't beat an opponent who uses flares, learn to dodge better. It can be done, and it can be done at relatively close distances. If I am losing against a particular setup, I don't complain about it or claim that it is somehow "cheap" or "unbalanced". I recognize it as a weakness in my technique and work to improve until I don't lose against it anymore. I think this is a much healthier attitude than what I've been seeing recently from some players. Instead of trying to tell people what they can or can't fly in a fair fight, practice and learn to overcome your weakness.
To summarize what I'm saying, increasing the flare safety distance might be interesting and is something I'd like to see tested, but flare setups are certainly balanced and defeatable with their current implementation.
Also, do we know if the safety is based on time or distance? I was never sure. Increasing the distance or time a bit might be interesting, and would certainly increase the effectiveness of the "stay really close" tactic.
That aside, I think you're making some false assumptions. Flares do not "dominate" 1 on 1 PvP combat. As a matter of fact, some of the current best PvP'ers do not use flares and can easily defeat flare setups. The 2 best PvP'ers of the last year or so, in my opinion, are Denji and Maalik. Both primarily use all-energy setups, and both can easily dodge flares at less than 150m. Unless you're extremely good at flare aiming, flares are nearly useless against these players. ShankTank, I've also seen you in-game as Chaakin defeating people of equal experience to you who are using flare setups. So, by that logic, the current implementation of flares does not give a clear advantage over other setups. An equally experienced flare user and all-energy user seem to be about matched, on average. Isn't that how it should be? Of course, if you are going up against a flare user who has more PvP experience than you, I wouldn't expect you to win. You can't expect to be able to defeat every single player who uses flares with your all-energy setup, only the ones who you are more experienced than. Right? Flares require skill and practice to use effectively. If they didn't, then anyone could use them and be approximately evenly matched with every other flare user, regardless of experience. That's not the case. Like most other weapons in VO, aiming flares is a bit of an art, as is dodging them.
If we all flew in the same setup, it would be boring. If you can't beat an opponent who uses flares, learn to dodge better. It can be done, and it can be done at relatively close distances. If I am losing against a particular setup, I don't complain about it or claim that it is somehow "cheap" or "unbalanced". I recognize it as a weakness in my technique and work to improve until I don't lose against it anymore. I think this is a much healthier attitude than what I've been seeing recently from some players. Instead of trying to tell people what they can or can't fly in a fair fight, practice and learn to overcome your weakness.
To summarize what I'm saying, increasing the flare safety distance might be interesting and is something I'd like to see tested, but flare setups are certainly balanced and defeatable with their current implementation.
I remember back in sector 7 I used to fly a blue prom with like 35000 hull or something and id turbo into my enemies and fire my flares. Hence the term rocket ramming.
That is what you could be dealing with.
The current system is fracking amazing compared to that.
To clarify because I know some of you will misinterpret "turbo into" I slammed my craft into the target and fired flares during impact. Not the usual turbo at the enemy firing flares that you newer people are thinking of and used to.
That is what you could be dealing with.
The current system is fracking amazing compared to that.
To clarify because I know some of you will misinterpret "turbo into" I slammed my craft into the target and fired flares during impact. Not the usual turbo at the enemy firing flares that you newer people are thinking of and used to.
grid power to 7?
crazyspence, yes flares arent as uber as they used to be, that being said, they still are overpowered. Saying it could be worse dosn't mean their is no problem now.
I dont think there is a problem now i just think people like to complain.
yays. All bow to Empress Azumi, courtesy of Dr. Lecter!