Forums » Suggestions
PvP Tokens
In a different thread, I mentioned that the reward for PvP has to be equal to or greater than the risk for PvP. There are a couple of ways to do this. The obvious one is money. However, that can cause other problems if the reward is too great. It also rewards noob killing.
I'm sure the idea of tokens is not a new one to many of you. The idea is that killing a player above a certain level drops a token or a certain loot item. Low level players will not drop these. The tokens are then redeemable for ships. This is the simplest example of making risk = reward. For each player you kill, you can get a token for another ship.
This can be adjusted in several ways for more specific results:
-Tokens could give discounts on ships instead of free ships.
-Tokens could be exchanged for (or give discounts on) specific ships as opposed to any ship. This could be used to increase the amount of Itanis using Itani ships and Serco using Serco ships etc. This also creates a gentle way of encouraging certain factions to use certain ships without restricting them.
-Tokens could either be determined by the type of nation you kill, or the nation that you are. For example, UIT might only receive tokens that are exchangeable for only UIT as well as grey faction ships, excluding corvus. Itani might receive tokens exchangeable for only Itani as well as grey faction ships, excluding Biocom. Etc.
-Tokens could be exchangeable only with factions that you are admired by.
-Tokens could be exchangeable only with your main faction.
**All of the above are not intended to be used together, but as individual suggestions to fine tune the token rewards in the desired direction.
Tokens might also not be an actual widget, but something that is kept track of on the person, not the ship. This avoids the selling of tokens. Also, to avoid the stealing of tokens, they might be added directly to the character info (as opposed to dropped after a kill) so that they aren't actually looted at all, but assigned for each PvP kill. Now that I think of it, this would create much less complications than having them be an actual cargo widget. They would still be exchanged in the same way, just added automatically upon each kill or subtracted automatically upon each exchange. Another workaround might be to have the widget assigned to the killer, making others unable loot it.
Thoughts? Questions?
I'm sure the idea of tokens is not a new one to many of you. The idea is that killing a player above a certain level drops a token or a certain loot item. Low level players will not drop these. The tokens are then redeemable for ships. This is the simplest example of making risk = reward. For each player you kill, you can get a token for another ship.
This can be adjusted in several ways for more specific results:
-Tokens could give discounts on ships instead of free ships.
-Tokens could be exchanged for (or give discounts on) specific ships as opposed to any ship. This could be used to increase the amount of Itanis using Itani ships and Serco using Serco ships etc. This also creates a gentle way of encouraging certain factions to use certain ships without restricting them.
-Tokens could either be determined by the type of nation you kill, or the nation that you are. For example, UIT might only receive tokens that are exchangeable for only UIT as well as grey faction ships, excluding corvus. Itani might receive tokens exchangeable for only Itani as well as grey faction ships, excluding Biocom. Etc.
-Tokens could be exchangeable only with factions that you are admired by.
-Tokens could be exchangeable only with your main faction.
**All of the above are not intended to be used together, but as individual suggestions to fine tune the token rewards in the desired direction.
Tokens might also not be an actual widget, but something that is kept track of on the person, not the ship. This avoids the selling of tokens. Also, to avoid the stealing of tokens, they might be added directly to the character info (as opposed to dropped after a kill) so that they aren't actually looted at all, but assigned for each PvP kill. Now that I think of it, this would create much less complications than having them be an actual cargo widget. They would still be exchanged in the same way, just added automatically upon each kill or subtracted automatically upon each exchange. Another workaround might be to have the widget assigned to the killer, making others unable loot it.
Thoughts? Questions?
I like the idea. But personally I think it makes the most sense as something directly added to your char info. And...
To make the most sense RP-ly, and to help make up for the ship loss in BS/BP (which are the main sources of ship-loss people are worrying about now), how about the "token" (I don't really like using that terms since it doesn't fit well into VO realism or anything) is issued by the government you take the mission for, in exchange for killing someone on the opposite side (assuming the person you killed is a high enough level for this all to work).
But I can imagine the specifics of all this being kinda tough, unless it's just a straight up money reward for the value of the ship you kill. And also, if it's not money, but rather a "token"/trade-in system, kill stealing will become even more painful. So I guess my vote would be that everyone helping on the kill gets the % of damage they did out of the ship's purchase value.
To make the most sense RP-ly, and to help make up for the ship loss in BS/BP (which are the main sources of ship-loss people are worrying about now), how about the "token" (I don't really like using that terms since it doesn't fit well into VO realism or anything) is issued by the government you take the mission for, in exchange for killing someone on the opposite side (assuming the person you killed is a high enough level for this all to work).
But I can imagine the specifics of all this being kinda tough, unless it's just a straight up money reward for the value of the ship you kill. And also, if it's not money, but rather a "token"/trade-in system, kill stealing will become even more painful. So I guess my vote would be that everyone helping on the kill gets the % of damage they did out of the ship's purchase value.
Smitty, how about 'chit' instead of 'token', hmm?
Call it a 'letter of mark' or something similar.
That is what privateers used to be given by governments enabling what was in effect legalised piracy; not actually seen anything yet that says that term is already in use in VO.
That is what privateers used to be given by governments enabling what was in effect legalised piracy; not actually seen anything yet that says that term is already in use in VO.
But what about the people who have rediculous liscense levels in the high teens? You make it sound like they would get nothing for kiliing anyone?
If we're going with the token suggestion, it should only be dropped by those above a certain level, say combat 5. How high level the killer is should be irrelevant. Only the level of the victim will determine the reward or if there is a reward.
Make the drop appropriate to the level difference between the two combatants.
But that is what would cause really high (teens to twenties) level people to get nothing for killing a highly skilled pilot with medium to high levels (6 to 11)
TY, theratt10. Nicoust, that is what we are trying to avoid. Ghost, you have hit it on the head. Give combat and light/hvy XP based on some factor of combat license.
lv 5 - 50xp for each
lv 6 - 100xp
lv 7 - 200xp
lv 8 - 300xp
lv 9 - 500xp
lv 10 - 1000xp
lv 11 - 1500xp
lv 12 - 2000xp
lv 13 - 2500xp
lv 14 - 2000xp
Just my recommendation... And for those concerned about xp being too high. A lvl 14 player will not get killed by a lvl 6. And for a lvl 10 player to get 2000xp, will not matter all that much.
lv 5 - 50xp for each
lv 6 - 100xp
lv 7 - 200xp
lv 8 - 300xp
lv 9 - 500xp
lv 10 - 1000xp
lv 11 - 1500xp
lv 12 - 2000xp
lv 13 - 2500xp
lv 14 - 2000xp
Just my recommendation... And for those concerned about xp being too high. A lvl 14 player will not get killed by a lvl 6. And for a lvl 10 player to get 2000xp, will not matter all that much.
Unfortunately, there's no easy way to "rank" a character or player's skill based on actual twitch skills -- rather, VO's particular blend of twitch skills, which are arguably different from those of, say, Unreal Tournament or Team Fortress -- without resorting to some sort of 'reputation' system that requires input from the players. Unfortunately, that type of system is particularly vulnerable to false data submitted by users.
That pretty much leaves us with duel ratings or license levels. The former can be a reasonably accurate guide in some cases, but it is also easily falsified and does not reflect the ships and equipment used in the duels. The latter, on the other hand, is horribly inaccurate and merely serves to show a rough guide of how "new" a character (not a player!) is to the game.
Just my recommendation... And for those concerned about xp being too high. A lvl 14 player will not get killed by a lvl 6. And for a lvl 10 player to get 2000xp, will not matter all that much.
Wrong. Your licenses mean nothing as far as your actual skill goes. I know for a fact that there are a number of players who could, while using very low-level equipment (say, below 3's or 4's across the board), defeat someone with much higher levels.
That pretty much leaves us with duel ratings or license levels. The former can be a reasonably accurate guide in some cases, but it is also easily falsified and does not reflect the ships and equipment used in the duels. The latter, on the other hand, is horribly inaccurate and merely serves to show a rough guide of how "new" a character (not a player!) is to the game.
Just my recommendation... And for those concerned about xp being too high. A lvl 14 player will not get killed by a lvl 6. And for a lvl 10 player to get 2000xp, will not matter all that much.
Wrong. Your licenses mean nothing as far as your actual skill goes. I know for a fact that there are a number of players who could, while using very low-level equipment (say, below 3's or 4's across the board), defeat someone with much higher levels.
What I would prefer is for tokens to only drop from those above a certain level. This is solely to discourage noob killing or farming of tokens. The level of the killer will not be taken into account.
Now I think what you're saying is this means that really high level players don't get relevant rewards. But, ideally the tokens would either give a percentage discount (say 50% off a certain ship) or a free ship. This makes the reward automatically adjust so that high level players, who are buying more expensive ships, receive a better discount. 50% off of a prom is better than 50% off of a vult. The same way that a free prom is better than a free vult.
If you're concerned that high level players aren't getting rewarded enough, I don't believe that rewards beyond this are necessary for PvP even for the really high level players. The reason for this is even if you're combat level 32, you're still buying the same top end gear that a combat level 10 pilot is getting. Therefor, a level 32 can get the same value out of these PvP discounts that a level 10 can, they're both buying the same stuff. Now if cap ships ever come into play, that could change, but I think this would be enough for now. What I'm suggesting here is a way to fund PvP, not a way to get rich off of PvP.
@stackman: the xp idea could work as well, but I was thinking more towards cash rewards for the moment as the ship prices were increased.
Now I think what you're saying is this means that really high level players don't get relevant rewards. But, ideally the tokens would either give a percentage discount (say 50% off a certain ship) or a free ship. This makes the reward automatically adjust so that high level players, who are buying more expensive ships, receive a better discount. 50% off of a prom is better than 50% off of a vult. The same way that a free prom is better than a free vult.
If you're concerned that high level players aren't getting rewarded enough, I don't believe that rewards beyond this are necessary for PvP even for the really high level players. The reason for this is even if you're combat level 32, you're still buying the same top end gear that a combat level 10 pilot is getting. Therefor, a level 32 can get the same value out of these PvP discounts that a level 10 can, they're both buying the same stuff. Now if cap ships ever come into play, that could change, but I think this would be enough for now. What I'm suggesting here is a way to fund PvP, not a way to get rich off of PvP.
@stackman: the xp idea could work as well, but I was thinking more towards cash rewards for the moment as the ship prices were increased.
Why not have a license level based on your number of PKs? Between heavy and trading? Although I'm not sure if it'd be possible to add another license level based on it, but at least make the tokens payable by the number of PKs the player had at the time you killed them, rather than their bot levels.
I've been thinking about this too, independently. I'm ok with the idea of making it a direct character attribute, as opposed to a dropped item. Although the dropped-item thing does add some extra.. umm.. interesting (beneficial?) complication. In that one could go after someone who killed a lot of people, and kill them, and take their accumulated IFF Transponders (or whatever they're called).
Personally, I was just thinking they would only be dropped by people who were lvl5 Combat or greater, and would be the same "value" for anyone above that point (no difference in level, avoiding the whole inherent impossibilities of "rating" players).
I was also thinking that such tokens would only be "dropped" or (if it wasn't an actual item).. would only be "applied" once per hour per person or some such. So, a person could essentially fire up a bus, have a friend kill them, and then load up their real ship to go fly around without benefiting their enemy for the following hour. But the person killing them would not be able to tell one way or the other, so it wouldn't influence people choosing to attack (beyond making repeated attacks less worthwhile). Most importantly, it would mitigate the inherent exploitation risks of two friends just killing each other, over and over again.
Anyway, I welcome further feedback on these concepts. At present, I'm a bit concerned about creating, seemingly, a whole other form of currency. I would rather just use the existent one, it makes things a lot simpler. But, that wouldn't allow for some of the interesting pro-faction-ship benefits that Ghost describes.
Personally, I was just thinking they would only be dropped by people who were lvl5 Combat or greater, and would be the same "value" for anyone above that point (no difference in level, avoiding the whole inherent impossibilities of "rating" players).
I was also thinking that such tokens would only be "dropped" or (if it wasn't an actual item).. would only be "applied" once per hour per person or some such. So, a person could essentially fire up a bus, have a friend kill them, and then load up their real ship to go fly around without benefiting their enemy for the following hour. But the person killing them would not be able to tell one way or the other, so it wouldn't influence people choosing to attack (beyond making repeated attacks less worthwhile). Most importantly, it would mitigate the inherent exploitation risks of two friends just killing each other, over and over again.
Anyway, I welcome further feedback on these concepts. At present, I'm a bit concerned about creating, seemingly, a whole other form of currency. I would rather just use the existent one, it makes things a lot simpler. But, that wouldn't allow for some of the interesting pro-faction-ship benefits that Ghost describes.
Thanks for the reply Inc. The pro-faction ship benefits don't have to be a necessity if it would make implementation easier. IMHO, as long as it's providing some funding for PvP by doing PvP, it's working to solve the current issue, more specific pro-faction benefits could always be added later.
My only other suggestion would be that if these are only going to be dropped or applied once in a certain amount of time, I would try the limit at a half hour to start and even then make it be worth either a high percentage discount or a free ship. The hour time limit would be helpful in preventing farming, but it might be too long to make the actual reward beneficial in a heated PvP contest. Unless, anyone has any ideas as to how to prevent farming while still making the reward substantial enough to fund a good PvP session? The only reason I'm concerned about this is that due to the nature of vendetta (which is a good nature) ships are lost relatively quickly. Now that money matters, there has to be some way to replace those funds just as quickly. Otherwise you end up with a scenario that's like trying to downhill ski at any "mountain" in Michigan. You have to spend 5 minutes going up a chairlift and only 30 seconds going down the hill. (Sorry in advance to Ecka for comparing trading to riding a chairlift.)
If you'd rather not implement another form of currency, you might be able to accomplish the same goal by using a drop that gives a cash reward, only redeemable at a nation station. But I suppose that might be accomplished in a simpler fashion by just providing a cash reward for killing players, which is another good idea and something that Bojan hinted at in his Search and Destroy thread.
My only other suggestion would be that if these are only going to be dropped or applied once in a certain amount of time, I would try the limit at a half hour to start and even then make it be worth either a high percentage discount or a free ship. The hour time limit would be helpful in preventing farming, but it might be too long to make the actual reward beneficial in a heated PvP contest. Unless, anyone has any ideas as to how to prevent farming while still making the reward substantial enough to fund a good PvP session? The only reason I'm concerned about this is that due to the nature of vendetta (which is a good nature) ships are lost relatively quickly. Now that money matters, there has to be some way to replace those funds just as quickly. Otherwise you end up with a scenario that's like trying to downhill ski at any "mountain" in Michigan. You have to spend 5 minutes going up a chairlift and only 30 seconds going down the hill. (Sorry in advance to Ecka for comparing trading to riding a chairlift.)
If you'd rather not implement another form of currency, you might be able to accomplish the same goal by using a drop that gives a cash reward, only redeemable at a nation station. But I suppose that might be accomplished in a simpler fashion by just providing a cash reward for killing players, which is another good idea and something that Bojan hinted at in his Search and Destroy thread.
What if the a token is worth a percentage of the cost of the ship that was destroyed (say 80%) plus some value that could be recharged hourly?
80% of 0 is 0 ;)
Ghost, I would like to respond by saying I am from Michigan and we do have at least decent mountains, the same size as foothills out west. But I don't snowboard/ski, so I can't atest for or against that statement.
Woot for Michiganders! =D I would argue that our "mountains" are about as good as our economy right now, but we digress from the topic.
Vendettas:
When you kill a player, you create a vendetta. Your vendetta value increases by one quarter of the value of the ship you destroyed (base value of ship, not including equipment or cargo).
If you kill someone with a vendetta count, then (in addition to above) you receive a vendetta resolution award. The award is equal to the victim's current vendetta count, not to exceed one quarter the value of the destroyed ship (base value of ship, not including equipment or cargo). An equal amount of vendetta value is subtracted from the victim.
vendetta resolution awards are converted to credits on docking with any station or capship.
When you kill a player, you create a vendetta. Your vendetta value increases by one quarter of the value of the ship you destroyed (base value of ship, not including equipment or cargo).
If you kill someone with a vendetta count, then (in addition to above) you receive a vendetta resolution award. The award is equal to the victim's current vendetta count, not to exceed one quarter the value of the destroyed ship (base value of ship, not including equipment or cargo). An equal amount of vendetta value is subtracted from the victim.
vendetta resolution awards are converted to credits on docking with any station or capship.
And now for something completely different....
why on earth does everything have to be so complicated?
Tokens looked like a good idea before a bunch of you started complicating and applying advanced combinatorics to a very simple thing.
This thread started as a suggestion for earning money the military way, not gaining exp points or some silly medals or stats.
It is only about monetary rewards for military service to your faction!
How about we do a quick fix by introducing SEARCH & DESTROY mission with a down to earth simple rules:
1 pk = 50000 credits token redeemable at your faction station for buying new ships only
rules:
- kills count for reward on players above combat lvl 5
- kills count only on your enemies or players with negative (dislike, hate, KOS) status with your faction.
- duels, friendly fire kills and similar do not count for reward
This can be implemented in 1 day using existing code.
why on earth does everything have to be so complicated?
Tokens looked like a good idea before a bunch of you started complicating and applying advanced combinatorics to a very simple thing.
This thread started as a suggestion for earning money the military way, not gaining exp points or some silly medals or stats.
It is only about monetary rewards for military service to your faction!
How about we do a quick fix by introducing SEARCH & DESTROY mission with a down to earth simple rules:
1 pk = 50000 credits token redeemable at your faction station for buying new ships only
rules:
- kills count for reward on players above combat lvl 5
- kills count only on your enemies or players with negative (dislike, hate, KOS) status with your faction.
- duels, friendly fire kills and similar do not count for reward
This can be implemented in 1 day using existing code.