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Thoughts?
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latos - new system - deneb
Inc covered this last week:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/19029?page=3
Thu 04:59PM incarnate
"Well, that's an interesting idea. But I don't think it would do much to address the actual problem for newbies. Regardless of how people move around, the sheer scale of the current universe allows them to be very spread out. It would increase traffic at grayspace choke points, but a lot of newbies never even make it that far. If we had something like.. 8 systems of 32 sectors apiece, you would frequently run into other people.
Anyway, since deneb is moving more in the "war-zone" direction, it might be possible to reduce traffic that isn't on a war-related mission. Limiting transit without actually removing the wormhole, military checkpoints and all that (ranging from something like Berlin during the cold war, to a front-line during a hot war).
This is all straying a bit from the whole "let's be nicer on 100" generic topic. I'm not going to be shrinking the universe in general, we're well onto our course of trying to populate it with more Stuff. So, I'll be trying to move forward with that, and see what we can do. Along with the Guide stuff, and so on."
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/19029?page=3
Thu 04:59PM incarnate
"Well, that's an interesting idea. But I don't think it would do much to address the actual problem for newbies. Regardless of how people move around, the sheer scale of the current universe allows them to be very spread out. It would increase traffic at grayspace choke points, but a lot of newbies never even make it that far. If we had something like.. 8 systems of 32 sectors apiece, you would frequently run into other people.
Anyway, since deneb is moving more in the "war-zone" direction, it might be possible to reduce traffic that isn't on a war-related mission. Limiting transit without actually removing the wormhole, military checkpoints and all that (ranging from something like Berlin during the cold war, to a front-line during a hot war).
This is all straying a bit from the whole "let's be nicer on 100" generic topic. I'm not going to be shrinking the universe in general, we're well onto our course of trying to populate it with more Stuff. So, I'll be trying to move forward with that, and see what we can do. Along with the Guide stuff, and so on."
Another view.
There are currently four possible Serco/Itani fronts for the players to war at. The obvious Geira/Deneb, and the grey border systems, Helios, Ukari and Edras. Each one of these is an obvious potential choke point, and could/has facilitated war centered contact points for Itani/Serco battles, through boarder patrol, boarder skirmish and blockades.
My position is that it takes far too long for players to set up and engage at these points. Teams attempting to form groups have too much “travel” that has to go into setting up. Sedina, where the majority of PvP 1v1 takes place, is 9 Wormholes from Giera for the Serco, and 15 from Deneb for the Itani. At 1 - 2 minutes travel time per wormhole, that’s 9 -18 minutes or 15-30, just to get from one fight area to another. I tested the Serco run at 13 min in a Hog MKII Infinite boost. It can go quicker, or longer, but I think that is a fair average. No wonder participation in it is low. A big reason people won’t make the trip to the Boarder skirmish, if fighting 1V1 in Sedina is up to half hour transit time there, and then another half back when its over.
So, how to solve this problem.
First, lets look at the universe as it stands now.
Now, here is it inverted, with Grey in the middle and UIT on the outside. Note, the wormhole connections have not changed, just the view on where systems are in relation to each other.
And here is what I propose:
If we add two wormholes that connect to Latos, and make it the de-facto center of the universe. We also move the wormhole in Pyronis that points to Dantia, and also put that in Latos. This will give us the following things that could significantly add to the amount of opportunities for combat.
1.) Latos becomes the shortest route to Sedina, UIT and grey space for both Serco and Itani.
2.) Latos becomes a potential choke point for all three “Races” and pirates. Each one a single wormhole jump to the Latos center.
3.) Latos is one Wormhole from re-supply for all major factions, including the pirates.
4.) The boarder battles are two wormholes from the grey space where everything else seems to happen.
5.) This would facilitate the more frequent use of a variety of special ships for the skirmish missions, as transportation of them to the battle zone will be less onerous.
6.) With the close connection of Itani and Serco space through grey, trade convoys of opposing alignments will both pass through the Latos system, leading to opposing race harassment, and pirate opportunities.
7.) Itani will gain one undisputed link into Grey (Divina) and one disputed (Deneb), making blockading harder.
8.) The new wormhole in Deneb could be the site of the Boarder Skirmish mission, with multiple entrance vectors. This would cause an effective temporary choke point when the battle is raging.
9.) If the victor of the last boarder skirmish had Capital ships park on the Wormhole until the next one started, it would create an effective blockade, giving greater incentive for victory.
10.) It opens up various non-linear paths through grey and UIT space, allowing people to attempt to avoid pirates that will most likely congregate in Latos, by taking a less than optimal fight path.
11.) It doesn’t break the back-story in any way more than the not firing goliath cannons allow the boarder skirmish to take place now anyway.
12.) It only requires adding the two wormholes and the moving of one. Tweaking the boarder skirmish and trade route logic (if necessary) can happen later.
13.) It also partly addresses the Newbs not running into other player. With quicker access, regular players will move through the starting systems more frequently, and be more quickly available to join up with and help the newer players.
There are some concerns already voiced.
The universe will become too small. “The universe feels small enough as it is now with global chat.”
I honestly don’t think that should be a consideration until the universe is to small. At the moment, there are far more complaints about it being too big, transit times, and there would still be many ways to deal with it becoming too small later. Incarnate has talked about adding disputed systems in the future. I have built what I think is an example of how that could work, given the changes. This shows two new gray zones, on primarily a Serco/Itani Disputed area, and one covering all three races. Both areas could be the locations for player owned stations, system control wars, and mineral conflicts.
Obviously, we are far enough away from the over population problem, that it only has to be determined that a solution is possible, not the actual solution provided.
There are currently four possible Serco/Itani fronts for the players to war at. The obvious Geira/Deneb, and the grey border systems, Helios, Ukari and Edras. Each one of these is an obvious potential choke point, and could/has facilitated war centered contact points for Itani/Serco battles, through boarder patrol, boarder skirmish and blockades.
My position is that it takes far too long for players to set up and engage at these points. Teams attempting to form groups have too much “travel” that has to go into setting up. Sedina, where the majority of PvP 1v1 takes place, is 9 Wormholes from Giera for the Serco, and 15 from Deneb for the Itani. At 1 - 2 minutes travel time per wormhole, that’s 9 -18 minutes or 15-30, just to get from one fight area to another. I tested the Serco run at 13 min in a Hog MKII Infinite boost. It can go quicker, or longer, but I think that is a fair average. No wonder participation in it is low. A big reason people won’t make the trip to the Boarder skirmish, if fighting 1V1 in Sedina is up to half hour transit time there, and then another half back when its over.
So, how to solve this problem.
First, lets look at the universe as it stands now.
Now, here is it inverted, with Grey in the middle and UIT on the outside. Note, the wormhole connections have not changed, just the view on where systems are in relation to each other.
And here is what I propose:
If we add two wormholes that connect to Latos, and make it the de-facto center of the universe. We also move the wormhole in Pyronis that points to Dantia, and also put that in Latos. This will give us the following things that could significantly add to the amount of opportunities for combat.
1.) Latos becomes the shortest route to Sedina, UIT and grey space for both Serco and Itani.
2.) Latos becomes a potential choke point for all three “Races” and pirates. Each one a single wormhole jump to the Latos center.
3.) Latos is one Wormhole from re-supply for all major factions, including the pirates.
4.) The boarder battles are two wormholes from the grey space where everything else seems to happen.
5.) This would facilitate the more frequent use of a variety of special ships for the skirmish missions, as transportation of them to the battle zone will be less onerous.
6.) With the close connection of Itani and Serco space through grey, trade convoys of opposing alignments will both pass through the Latos system, leading to opposing race harassment, and pirate opportunities.
7.) Itani will gain one undisputed link into Grey (Divina) and one disputed (Deneb), making blockading harder.
8.) The new wormhole in Deneb could be the site of the Boarder Skirmish mission, with multiple entrance vectors. This would cause an effective temporary choke point when the battle is raging.
9.) If the victor of the last boarder skirmish had Capital ships park on the Wormhole until the next one started, it would create an effective blockade, giving greater incentive for victory.
10.) It opens up various non-linear paths through grey and UIT space, allowing people to attempt to avoid pirates that will most likely congregate in Latos, by taking a less than optimal fight path.
11.) It doesn’t break the back-story in any way more than the not firing goliath cannons allow the boarder skirmish to take place now anyway.
12.) It only requires adding the two wormholes and the moving of one. Tweaking the boarder skirmish and trade route logic (if necessary) can happen later.
13.) It also partly addresses the Newbs not running into other player. With quicker access, regular players will move through the starting systems more frequently, and be more quickly available to join up with and help the newer players.
There are some concerns already voiced.
The universe will become too small. “The universe feels small enough as it is now with global chat.”
I honestly don’t think that should be a consideration until the universe is to small. At the moment, there are far more complaints about it being too big, transit times, and there would still be many ways to deal with it becoming too small later. Incarnate has talked about adding disputed systems in the future. I have built what I think is an example of how that could work, given the changes. This shows two new gray zones, on primarily a Serco/Itani Disputed area, and one covering all three races. Both areas could be the locations for player owned stations, system control wars, and mineral conflicts.
Obviously, we are far enough away from the over population problem, that it only has to be determined that a solution is possible, not the actual solution provided.
8.) The new wormhole in Deneb could be the site of the Boarder Skirmish mission, with multiple entrance vectors. This would cause an effective temporary choke point when the battle is raging.
And at last, Itani would just as likely jump into Cap-ship fire as Serco.
And at last, Itani would just as likely jump into Cap-ship fire as Serco.
I'd tend to agree with PsaRa , more whs would certainly open things up . I might suggest linking Latos -Rhamus rather than Latos - Pyronis since Pyronis has capital Stations .
PsyRa's map is awesome!
Do want
Do want
hmmm i think its because it reminds me of EVN
I'm surprising myself by saying this, but I think that map could really work. Make Latos the boiling cauldron.
Storyline-wise, how would we explain this NOT opening up a new battlefront?
Storyline-wise, how would we explain this NOT opening up a new battlefront?
I like the idea of at least adding gray systems in other places throughout the universe. However, I don't think they should all circle back the way you drew it. Some of those sectors should be like the frontier. The last gray system on the chain should only have 1 wormhole, making it a dead end. It'll be more dangerous that way, the way gray space should be.
I like this idea.
Honestly, this + being able to take and hold territory together, done soon, would make me come back and drag every single person I could with me. No pressure, just stating my POV :P The fact that no matter what I did, nothing would have an effect, even medium term, pissed me off to no end.
Honestly, this + being able to take and hold territory together, done soon, would make me come back and drag every single person I could with me. No pressure, just stating my POV :P The fact that no matter what I did, nothing would have an effect, even medium term, pissed me off to no end.
I'd tend to agree with PsaRa , more whs would certainly open things up . I might suggest linking Latos -Rhamus rather than Latos - Pyronis since Pyronis has capital Stations .
Divinia also has Itani capital stations, and a Worm Hole boarder station same as Pyronis. Azek has like 3 Orion, and 3 TGP stations in it, but no Wormhole Station.
I think it would be just like the Serco to migrate as much force to another possible boarder, and the Itani build up to match.
And at last, Itani would just as likely jump into Cap-ship fire as Serco.
Inc already fixed that with the move to B-13
However, I don't think they should all circle back the way you drew it.
I took like 45 seconds of thought on that part.
"Obviously, we are far enough away from the over population problem, that it only has to be determined that a solution is possible, not the actual solution provided."
I agree, dead ends, and other interesting cut off choke points and alternate route models would be interesting.
Divinia also has Itani capital stations, and a Worm Hole boarder station same as Pyronis. Azek has like 3 Orion, and 3 TGP stations in it, but no Wormhole Station.
I think it would be just like the Serco to migrate as much force to another possible boarder, and the Itani build up to match.
And at last, Itani would just as likely jump into Cap-ship fire as Serco.
Inc already fixed that with the move to B-13
However, I don't think they should all circle back the way you drew it.
I took like 45 seconds of thought on that part.
"Obviously, we are far enough away from the over population problem, that it only has to be determined that a solution is possible, not the actual solution provided."
I agree, dead ends, and other interesting cut off choke points and alternate route models would be interesting.
The fact that no matter what I did, nothing would have an effect, even medium term, pissed me off to no end.
Indeed. What's the point to a running a multi-player, 12 hour mission behind Itani lines to interdict traders and convoys; snuff out miners; and kill PC combat pilots... if it doesn't even make life in the affected Itani system more expensive at the stations affected?
You just wind up leaving the game and then coming back as a slew of alts to have fun messing with people, instead of having fun playing VO.
Indeed. What's the point to a running a multi-player, 12 hour mission behind Itani lines to interdict traders and convoys; snuff out miners; and kill PC combat pilots... if it doesn't even make life in the affected Itani system more expensive at the stations affected?
You just wind up leaving the game and then coming back as a slew of alts to have fun messing with people, instead of having fun playing VO.
Impressive, PsyRa. You certainly put a lot of thought into that; it would certainly help a lot of things (and make UIT KoS somewhat important in the Deneb run =^p).
Some back-story changes would have to be enacted, and the poster-map that came with the VO box I got would be a bit out-dated, but if it were to happen, I certainly wouldn't be opposed.
Some back-story changes would have to be enacted, and the poster-map that came with the VO box I got would be a bit out-dated, but if it were to happen, I certainly wouldn't be opposed.
Some back-story changes would have to be enacted,
You know, I looked for what might be messed up back-story wise, and didn't really find anything. The closest I got was.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/h/storyline_section10.html
On the day of the eighteenth anniversary of the attack on Serco Prime, a fleet of forty-four Serco capital ships make the jump to the adjacent system, on their way to Itani territory. The Itani sentries see them and provide a few hours warning to Eo.
lol "Hours".
The adjacent system to Eo must be Deneb, and still would be.
Exploration of the systems beyond Divinia leads to contact with the UIT. Surprisingly, the wormhole areas form something of a loop, connecting the Itani, UIT, and the Serco together.
It still would be "something of a loop". Just depends on how you describe a loop.
The real head scratcher would be the omission of details. But since the vast majority of systems are not mentioned or described in the back story, I don't think this change would cause a real problems.
But wait
Abruptly arriving from an unmapped system, a large fleet from the Order of Akan passes through the Itani systems, headed towards the Serco.
Could this unmapped system be the Latos/Deneb worm-hole, which until now was not officially "discovered" but the order of Akan knew about as a short cut from Divina?
Anyone else know what in the back-story would have to be adjusted by this change?
You know, I looked for what might be messed up back-story wise, and didn't really find anything. The closest I got was.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/h/storyline_section10.html
On the day of the eighteenth anniversary of the attack on Serco Prime, a fleet of forty-four Serco capital ships make the jump to the adjacent system, on their way to Itani territory. The Itani sentries see them and provide a few hours warning to Eo.
lol "Hours".
The adjacent system to Eo must be Deneb, and still would be.
Exploration of the systems beyond Divinia leads to contact with the UIT. Surprisingly, the wormhole areas form something of a loop, connecting the Itani, UIT, and the Serco together.
It still would be "something of a loop". Just depends on how you describe a loop.
The real head scratcher would be the omission of details. But since the vast majority of systems are not mentioned or described in the back story, I don't think this change would cause a real problems.
But wait
Abruptly arriving from an unmapped system, a large fleet from the Order of Akan passes through the Itani systems, headed towards the Serco.
Could this unmapped system be the Latos/Deneb worm-hole, which until now was not officially "discovered" but the order of Akan knew about as a short cut from Divina?
Anyone else know what in the back-story would have to be adjusted by this change?
Well, PsyRa, considering that the Akaneese base is strongly implied to be near Edras (the current fanon consensus is that its closest to Pelatus), you have to consider that the Akaneese went through the Itani systems to combat the Serco. And, later, it was implied that the Akaneese attacked the Serco through UIT space (or very near it), which would add a great deal of confusion, since what would be "Grey" space would, in fact, be the direct route.
More importantly, it doesn't make much sense that the UIT and the Itani would be oblivious to each-other for so long; in the back-story, it was the overlooking of the wormhole from Sol II to Betheshee was written off as a "navigational miscalculation". It rather strains credibility that they avoided each-other for so long with the additional Wormhole, particularly since it was explicitly said that the Itani and UIT didn't meet up until the Itani went past Edras. Why, exactly, would Latos go overlooked? And why would this go unmentioned in the back-story?
Now, if the Latos Wormholes were recently discovered or opened (or even artificial!), then you might have something, but you'd still have to tack on at least a footnote at the end of the back-story.
More importantly, it doesn't make much sense that the UIT and the Itani would be oblivious to each-other for so long; in the back-story, it was the overlooking of the wormhole from Sol II to Betheshee was written off as a "navigational miscalculation". It rather strains credibility that they avoided each-other for so long with the additional Wormhole, particularly since it was explicitly said that the Itani and UIT didn't meet up until the Itani went past Edras. Why, exactly, would Latos go overlooked? And why would this go unmentioned in the back-story?
Now, if the Latos Wormholes were recently discovered or opened (or even artificial!), then you might have something, but you'd still have to tack on at least a footnote at the end of the back-story.
Sigh.
If the idea has enough merit from a game play point of view, then fixing, appending, altering, or explaining the back-story is to me only a minor consideration. I would go with the "Recently Discovered" model. Hell, thats going to have to happen anyway if the user base ever gets large enough to force an expansion.
Show of hands, who plays and pays subscription fees to this game because of the back story?
Who decided to shell out hard earned cash online and pay their first subscription fees because of the back-story?
Listens to crickets for a while
Now who pays because its fun to shoot people, and you can see the amazing potential for this game.
Chorus of cheers!!!
If the idea has enough merit from a game play point of view, then fixing, appending, altering, or explaining the back-story is to me only a minor consideration. I would go with the "Recently Discovered" model. Hell, thats going to have to happen anyway if the user base ever gets large enough to force an expansion.
Show of hands, who plays and pays subscription fees to this game because of the back story?
Who decided to shell out hard earned cash online and pay their first subscription fees because of the back-story?
Listens to crickets for a while
Now who pays because its fun to shoot people, and you can see the amazing potential for this game.
Chorus of cheers!!!
The backstory was an important consideration for me. If I don't like the story, the game can still be interesting, just not for quite as long as it really could be (say 2 months instead of 2 years, in my case). So don't completely discount it.
As for the Akanese, my fanon says Jallik :| Mainly because that forces them to go through itani space, as has been alluded to so many times in the backstory.
At any rate, the map is just a representation for humans, since the actual stars could be in whole different universes for all we know. So as long as the same links are kept, we can flip it rotate it, etc. Discovering a wormhole between latos and itani space would probably be easiest represented with grey space "nearer" to itani space, on the map scale of things, so you can explain that away.
As for the wormholes themselves, akanese plot? ITS A TARP! Those crazy nuts, I'm sure they'd experiment with wormhole tech to get better routes to the serco homeland. Especially since the UIT and itani have sortof started clamping down.
As for the Akanese, my fanon says Jallik :| Mainly because that forces them to go through itani space, as has been alluded to so many times in the backstory.
At any rate, the map is just a representation for humans, since the actual stars could be in whole different universes for all we know. So as long as the same links are kept, we can flip it rotate it, etc. Discovering a wormhole between latos and itani space would probably be easiest represented with grey space "nearer" to itani space, on the map scale of things, so you can explain that away.
As for the wormholes themselves, akanese plot? ITS A TARP! Those crazy nuts, I'm sure they'd experiment with wormhole tech to get better routes to the serco homeland. Especially since the UIT and itani have sortof started clamping down.
So don't completely discount it.
I don't. You don't think I poured over the entire twelve chapters of the Chronicles of Exile because I discount it do you? I understand it is important for adding depth. Some people, like yourself appreciate and may even need that.
Where I would personally get a bit peeved, is if the consideration for the back-story took precedence over the improvement of the game itself. It is done all over the place already. There are no in place massive defenses on either side of the boarder, there are no Goliath Cannons, or fleets of 40 cap ships, or.... I think you get my point.
See, to me the back-story is like the landscape in a portrait that has another subject as it's focus, say a person. Just a picture of the person wouldn't be the same, the backdrop enhances them. However, if someone said that the tree they are standing beside should be in front of them, effectively eclipsing them, because most of the picture has trees in it. Well I would think they didn't have much sense at all.
All in all, this is wildly off topic however.
Back on topic, I don't think new worm-holes need to be explained as anything more than exactly that, new.
[Edit]
I should really wait until I have thought a bit before responding sometimes. That last exchange was just stupid of me. If you didn't notice, I ASKED for back-story problems, then got all cranky when one was pointed out. That was juvenile of me.
Sorry.
Are there any other potential logistical problems with this suggestion than the capital station issue?
I don't. You don't think I poured over the entire twelve chapters of the Chronicles of Exile because I discount it do you? I understand it is important for adding depth. Some people, like yourself appreciate and may even need that.
Where I would personally get a bit peeved, is if the consideration for the back-story took precedence over the improvement of the game itself. It is done all over the place already. There are no in place massive defenses on either side of the boarder, there are no Goliath Cannons, or fleets of 40 cap ships, or.... I think you get my point.
See, to me the back-story is like the landscape in a portrait that has another subject as it's focus, say a person. Just a picture of the person wouldn't be the same, the backdrop enhances them. However, if someone said that the tree they are standing beside should be in front of them, effectively eclipsing them, because most of the picture has trees in it. Well I would think they didn't have much sense at all.
All in all, this is wildly off topic however.
Back on topic, I don't think new worm-holes need to be explained as anything more than exactly that, new.
[Edit]
I should really wait until I have thought a bit before responding sometimes. That last exchange was just stupid of me. If you didn't notice, I ASKED for back-story problems, then got all cranky when one was pointed out. That was juvenile of me.
Sorry.
Are there any other potential logistical problems with this suggestion than the capital station issue?