Forums » Suggestions
Starting a discussion on the hive
Since Incarnate asked for in this recent news post,
“During this process I hope to rework a lot of the actual Hive-based gameplay, so examples like.. the Leviathan being properly defended, and Hive Bastions (Queens with Guardians) being more interesting and.. useful to assault. So if you have any ideas specific to the Hive, and interaction with the Hive, please dust them off and post them to the Suggestions forum.”
I decided to take a run on how the hive could be brought to life and made more interesting.
First off, some old threads on the issue of the hive. There is surprisingly very little to be found on this topic.
Drops and gear
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/17187#216793
XP
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/17106
Presence in universe:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/17131#216278
It is very obvious that the hive has at its design base the model of one of the recognizable hive insects in our world, bee’s, ants, or wasps for example. So let us start by taking as the model of a yellow jacket wasp life cycle, one of the more aggressive of the breeds.
So here is the basic cycle.
In the real world, the queen emerges from hibernation in the spring and sets about looking for a suitable nest site.
She initially raises the first few eggs herself until enough workers exist to maintain the offspring and to build the nest without her assistance.
Towards the end of the autumn, the eggs that the queen lays develop in to males and fertile females - the new queens. These leave the nest, mate and the mated females, or queens, then start the cycle again.
Queens also come from within an already existing hive. If the current queen is killed, then the most dominant worker takes over the position, and begins the process of laying eggs.
So the cycle in VO could be.
Lone collectors enter empty sectors with asteroids, mine, and then morph into a queen.
This queen then mines as well, and once enough resources have been gathered, begins to “lay” more collector drones.
Once a certain number of drones have been made, most of the group begins work on the nest, or Leviathan, while others range out in search of resources.
Once the leviathan is complete, new drones are created that will travel to different sectors to attempt to start the process again, while this hive attempts to control the system.
If the queen or leviathan is killed, all workers are released to search for a new area and start their own nests.
If the universe is fully cleansed of the hive, then Ion storms passing through sectors could be the trigger for “hatching” new queens from “egg” devices hidden inside asteroids.
I think this is probably a great opportunity to take a first crack at manufacturing, and install it into the hive to make it more alive.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/17418#219398
[Note: there is an error in the table design for the link above. It would need a formula ID column added, so that different formulas could build the same object. From 40 Hazmat suits you may only get one recycled scrap metal, but if 2 airlock maintenance kits are recycled you also get a scrap metal.]
Begin by defining the construction requirements for hive bots. Make the materials the easy to find and abundant. For example the hive could “recycle” everything to form base materials like scrap metal, and then use that for the construction base of all its components. Have each queen hold a specific set of blueprints for the construction of all items that hive bots for the hive.
Allow the queens to “steal” blueprints by examining ship parts and items dropped by players during the “recycle” process. Then that specific queen could produce modified versions of the items. These specialty items could require different and rare minerals, and hives that held these blueprints would aggressively try to find the natural resources to manufacture these items.
Making it interesting:
Make each hive group have a bit of personality based on the default programming of the Queen, which she passes on to her “children”, with the exception of new queens. Allow each offspring to have one of two or three patterns of behavior, at a specific ratio of the hive. In this way each hive is set to a unique pattern of behavior.
Have set behavior triggers like
When nobody is around:
Evasive: These queens set up in empty sectors instead of those with asteroids. All materials are shipped to them for production.
Expansionist: Will spawn many more queens, and colonize areas aggressively.
Aggressive: Higher numbers of roving packs traveling though the system.
Scavenger: Pick up dropped items as quickly as possible to return to the queen.
When player is detected in sector/radar range
Territorial: All members swarm and attack any intrusion into “their” space.
Passive: If you don’t bug them, they won’t bug you.
Observational: Hive members attempt to maintain between 250-500m from players.
Cowardly: Members, including the queens, attempt to flee sector.
Hunters: Follow and pursue player if possible.
Player approaches random pre-determined proximity (50-2500m)
Territorial: All members swarm and attack any intrusion into “their” space.
Cowardly: Members, including the queens, attempt to flee sector.
Hunters: Follow and pursue player if possible.
Attackers: Hive within radar range attacks.
When player attacks or is attacked by hive.
Swarm: All members are sent to attack.
Passive: Only members engaged fight back.
Scavenger: Only members hit fight back, others pursue combatants with picking up debris in mind.
Hunters: Follow and pursue any player if possible.
Sitting duck: won’t fight back or even notice attackers.
Cowards: All bots pick up and leave if a hive member is killed.
Insane: Hive closes and withdraws, and turns randomly until destroyed.
Kamikaze: Like the seeker drones, approach and self destruct.
By pre-selecting different behavior to different event triggers, you would see a wider mix of behaviors, some of them possibly very strange. For example, imagine jumping into a sector only to have 30 hive bots attack you. You kill one, and all of the sudden the rest flee the sector. Or you enter a sector, and 50 hive bots start to “watch” you from 250M out, following you when you leave.
By developing new behaviors, the hives become more alive. With just the behaviors above, and the triggers indicated, there are over 600 unique hive behavior combinations. By giving two possible choices of each trigger, there could be over 10,000 behavior mixes for the hives from just the selection above.
By locking hive behavior spawns in certain areas, like passive and scavenger, for capital nation space, you would create types that new players would have fun attacking, and not find them totally overwhelming in the early stages.
Make it worth attacking:
Well first off, uncontrolled, a living hive would very quickly take over all the asteroid sectors, and completely eliminate the ability of humans to mine. In order to get access to resources, people will have to sector clear before mining could begin.
With an aggressive/scavengers, the hive would also find players to be food. Roaming packs of drones would find their way into the major trade lanes and wormhole entrances. More than just attacking for the sake of attacking, they would be desirous of scavenging the wreckage, both for the raw materials like scrap metal, and for the parts that could lead to blueprint development.
With aggressive packs tied to a hive at the Leviathan stage, the only way to stop them from harassing players and being a nuisance would be to gather enough players to destroy the colony.
Make their carcasses fun and useful.
If tied eventually into player manufacture, queen processor cores could contain blueprints that had been scavenged by that queen. It could be the only method for getting access to the production of specific and rare items. If these instructions had to be installed in manufacturing capital ships, the destruction of those ships would send players looking for other queens to drop those blueprints.
Processor cores once re-programmed and installed into a ships port, could be the brains of slave ships controlled by players, with different cores having different commands and limitations. From the Orun that could only “mine stuff” in a current sector to take back to a capital ship, to advanced Artemis that could be ordered to mine Denic in sector X, that could travel, mine, and return to a base of operations. With hive cores being the staple item needed in developing a player controlled fleets of slaves, they would be sought after, and constantly searched for.
“During this process I hope to rework a lot of the actual Hive-based gameplay, so examples like.. the Leviathan being properly defended, and Hive Bastions (Queens with Guardians) being more interesting and.. useful to assault. So if you have any ideas specific to the Hive, and interaction with the Hive, please dust them off and post them to the Suggestions forum.”
I decided to take a run on how the hive could be brought to life and made more interesting.
First off, some old threads on the issue of the hive. There is surprisingly very little to be found on this topic.
Drops and gear
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/17187#216793
XP
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/17106
Presence in universe:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/17131#216278
It is very obvious that the hive has at its design base the model of one of the recognizable hive insects in our world, bee’s, ants, or wasps for example. So let us start by taking as the model of a yellow jacket wasp life cycle, one of the more aggressive of the breeds.
So here is the basic cycle.
In the real world, the queen emerges from hibernation in the spring and sets about looking for a suitable nest site.
She initially raises the first few eggs herself until enough workers exist to maintain the offspring and to build the nest without her assistance.
Towards the end of the autumn, the eggs that the queen lays develop in to males and fertile females - the new queens. These leave the nest, mate and the mated females, or queens, then start the cycle again.
Queens also come from within an already existing hive. If the current queen is killed, then the most dominant worker takes over the position, and begins the process of laying eggs.
So the cycle in VO could be.
Lone collectors enter empty sectors with asteroids, mine, and then morph into a queen.
This queen then mines as well, and once enough resources have been gathered, begins to “lay” more collector drones.
Once a certain number of drones have been made, most of the group begins work on the nest, or Leviathan, while others range out in search of resources.
Once the leviathan is complete, new drones are created that will travel to different sectors to attempt to start the process again, while this hive attempts to control the system.
If the queen or leviathan is killed, all workers are released to search for a new area and start their own nests.
If the universe is fully cleansed of the hive, then Ion storms passing through sectors could be the trigger for “hatching” new queens from “egg” devices hidden inside asteroids.
I think this is probably a great opportunity to take a first crack at manufacturing, and install it into the hive to make it more alive.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/17418#219398
[Note: there is an error in the table design for the link above. It would need a formula ID column added, so that different formulas could build the same object. From 40 Hazmat suits you may only get one recycled scrap metal, but if 2 airlock maintenance kits are recycled you also get a scrap metal.]
Begin by defining the construction requirements for hive bots. Make the materials the easy to find and abundant. For example the hive could “recycle” everything to form base materials like scrap metal, and then use that for the construction base of all its components. Have each queen hold a specific set of blueprints for the construction of all items that hive bots for the hive.
Allow the queens to “steal” blueprints by examining ship parts and items dropped by players during the “recycle” process. Then that specific queen could produce modified versions of the items. These specialty items could require different and rare minerals, and hives that held these blueprints would aggressively try to find the natural resources to manufacture these items.
Making it interesting:
Make each hive group have a bit of personality based on the default programming of the Queen, which she passes on to her “children”, with the exception of new queens. Allow each offspring to have one of two or three patterns of behavior, at a specific ratio of the hive. In this way each hive is set to a unique pattern of behavior.
Have set behavior triggers like
When nobody is around:
Evasive: These queens set up in empty sectors instead of those with asteroids. All materials are shipped to them for production.
Expansionist: Will spawn many more queens, and colonize areas aggressively.
Aggressive: Higher numbers of roving packs traveling though the system.
Scavenger: Pick up dropped items as quickly as possible to return to the queen.
When player is detected in sector/radar range
Territorial: All members swarm and attack any intrusion into “their” space.
Passive: If you don’t bug them, they won’t bug you.
Observational: Hive members attempt to maintain between 250-500m from players.
Cowardly: Members, including the queens, attempt to flee sector.
Hunters: Follow and pursue player if possible.
Player approaches random pre-determined proximity (50-2500m)
Territorial: All members swarm and attack any intrusion into “their” space.
Cowardly: Members, including the queens, attempt to flee sector.
Hunters: Follow and pursue player if possible.
Attackers: Hive within radar range attacks.
When player attacks or is attacked by hive.
Swarm: All members are sent to attack.
Passive: Only members engaged fight back.
Scavenger: Only members hit fight back, others pursue combatants with picking up debris in mind.
Hunters: Follow and pursue any player if possible.
Sitting duck: won’t fight back or even notice attackers.
Cowards: All bots pick up and leave if a hive member is killed.
Insane: Hive closes and withdraws, and turns randomly until destroyed.
Kamikaze: Like the seeker drones, approach and self destruct.
By pre-selecting different behavior to different event triggers, you would see a wider mix of behaviors, some of them possibly very strange. For example, imagine jumping into a sector only to have 30 hive bots attack you. You kill one, and all of the sudden the rest flee the sector. Or you enter a sector, and 50 hive bots start to “watch” you from 250M out, following you when you leave.
By developing new behaviors, the hives become more alive. With just the behaviors above, and the triggers indicated, there are over 600 unique hive behavior combinations. By giving two possible choices of each trigger, there could be over 10,000 behavior mixes for the hives from just the selection above.
By locking hive behavior spawns in certain areas, like passive and scavenger, for capital nation space, you would create types that new players would have fun attacking, and not find them totally overwhelming in the early stages.
Make it worth attacking:
Well first off, uncontrolled, a living hive would very quickly take over all the asteroid sectors, and completely eliminate the ability of humans to mine. In order to get access to resources, people will have to sector clear before mining could begin.
With an aggressive/scavengers, the hive would also find players to be food. Roaming packs of drones would find their way into the major trade lanes and wormhole entrances. More than just attacking for the sake of attacking, they would be desirous of scavenging the wreckage, both for the raw materials like scrap metal, and for the parts that could lead to blueprint development.
With aggressive packs tied to a hive at the Leviathan stage, the only way to stop them from harassing players and being a nuisance would be to gather enough players to destroy the colony.
Make their carcasses fun and useful.
If tied eventually into player manufacture, queen processor cores could contain blueprints that had been scavenged by that queen. It could be the only method for getting access to the production of specific and rare items. If these instructions had to be installed in manufacturing capital ships, the destruction of those ships would send players looking for other queens to drop those blueprints.
Processor cores once re-programmed and installed into a ships port, could be the brains of slave ships controlled by players, with different cores having different commands and limitations. From the Orun that could only “mine stuff” in a current sector to take back to a capital ship, to advanced Artemis that could be ordered to mine Denic in sector X, that could travel, mine, and return to a base of operations. With hive cores being the staple item needed in developing a player controlled fleets of slaves, they would be sought after, and constantly searched for.
i hate to tell you this bro, but there is no spring and autumn in space.
Ok, I know is shouldn't feed the troll, but since you need this explained as if to a small child....
Autumn is like when players have swept a system and killed all the active hive.
Spring is the Ion storms that give energy to the "egg" devices hidden (read impossible to detect) in asteroid fields.
"If the universe is fully cleansed of the hive, then Ion storms passing through sectors could be the trigger for “hatching” new queens from “egg” devices hidden inside asteroids."
Autumn is like when players have swept a system and killed all the active hive.
Spring is the Ion storms that give energy to the "egg" devices hidden (read impossible to detect) in asteroid fields.
"If the universe is fully cleansed of the hive, then Ion storms passing through sectors could be the trigger for “hatching” new queens from “egg” devices hidden inside asteroids."
i really like the idea of the hive having to use wormholes and needing various ores. then going out and getting them.
i've always wanted space whales to "hunt" :P
i've always wanted space whales to "hunt" :P
Not trying to step on your toes here, PsyRa, but Incarnate has had the cycle and behavior of the Hive fleshed out in writing for ages.
Now, if only we could get the stuff about it from the design wiki that is being replaced with the Trac system... *cough*
Now, if only we could get the stuff about it from the design wiki that is being replaced with the Trac system... *cough*
Only reason I brought it up at all was Inc asked us to start discussing it in the news post.
I'm certain he has a plan, but since he asked, perhaps something I or others say will get added to it, to make it even better.
I'm certain he has a plan, but since he asked, perhaps something I or others say will get added to it, to make it even better.
Learn to use web archive. :)
http://web.archive.org/web/20060621053122/http://design.vendetta-online.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hive
http://web.archive.org/web/20060621053122/http://design.vendetta-online.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hive
The idea of the hive queen laying eggs in asteroids pleases me. To expand on your idea, it would be sweet if shooting a rock with mining lasers caused any eggs inside to hatch prematurely and attack your ship. So even if you wipe out the hive presence in a system, you'd still need to systematically clean out each and every asteroid to completely be rid of the pests.
I like the idea for making it possible to kill all the drones in a sector, or a system so that you could mine, and I'm not against having the drones start out, and build themselves up with resources, like real entities in a living universe. It could also be interesting if the ore the bots are made out of affect their shields/structure. It would be interesting to have a bunch of bots scrambling over xith, denic, and pyronic to build a high-quality queen, or levi. The hive needs to be less passive, so there's a real reason to get together and retaliate. I was just thinking last week about having hive systematically take over empty sectors with queens, and then levis, then eventually filling asteroid fields with queens/levis, then maybe attacking stations after that, if they're left out of check, with stations giving hive missions to go and destroy queen in Odia M-3 or something, when stuff starts getting out of hand. (With faction bonuses for every faction in the system)
The hive can become a very interesting enemy if it's tweaked a bit :)
The hive can become a very interesting enemy if it's tweaked a bit :)
Interesting article on Slashdot about group mind behavior.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/17/1724253
I really liked the comment about the simple Boids program.
"
Boids was a program written to try to simulate the flocking behavior of birds. It was written by Craig Reynolds
Reynolds gave his boids 3 rules:
1 Don't crowd too close to other boids
2 Try to go the same direction as other boids near you
3 Try to be in the average position of your local neighbors.
With just those three simple rules, the boids arranged themselves in a flock. Much to Reynolds surprise, without any more rules than that, the flock exhibited other emergent behavior, such as a flock that split up to go around an obstacle would rejoin.
More at: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/ [red3d.com]"
Probably worth a look at before finishing the hive behavior designs.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/17/1724253
I really liked the comment about the simple Boids program.
"
Boids was a program written to try to simulate the flocking behavior of birds. It was written by Craig Reynolds
Reynolds gave his boids 3 rules:
1 Don't crowd too close to other boids
2 Try to go the same direction as other boids near you
3 Try to be in the average position of your local neighbors.
With just those three simple rules, the boids arranged themselves in a flock. Much to Reynolds surprise, without any more rules than that, the flock exhibited other emergent behavior, such as a flock that split up to go around an obstacle would rejoin.
More at: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/ [red3d.com]"
Probably worth a look at before finishing the hive behavior designs.
Reminds me of the Game of Life.
"You win $10 in a beauty contest"
(old reference)
/edit: It's from the game of Life = old
(old reference)
/edit: It's from the game of Life = old
Whistler: Monopoly game. Not that old
Actually, I was referring to this, Jestatis.