I think it’s really cool that the Raptor now has a built-in Storm Radar Extender and it got me thinking.

I think that the "Storm Radar Extender" should be changed to simply a “Radar Extender”. Instead of extending radar 1000 meters just in storms, it would extend radar 1000 meters anywhere. With a normal ship in a normal sector with the extender installed, you'd be able to see out to 6000 meters on your radar instead of just 5000. This would also work with the Raptor's built-in extender. It would make the add-on more useful in a wider variety of situations and would really give the Raptor an edge in very specific situations, like assigning targets in large-scale battles.

This would also create an interesting dynamic if stealth or cloaking systems are ever introduced. Maybe a stealth add-on would make you completely invisible on radar to normal ships. However, if a ship were equipped with a radar extender, you would show up on radar as long as you were within 1000 meters. Maybe if there was a cloaking device, you would be visually hidden, but someone with a radar extender would see a wire frame outline of your ship from within 1000 meters, just like how we see ships and roids now in storms.

I guess I’m suggesting that the add-on be changed to be more of a “Radar Enhancer” for all situations, not just storms. There would be a push and pull dynamic between different add-ons that reduce radar vulnerability and ones that increase radar range and sensitivity to counter that. I know I’ve heard other people talking about things like this, but I don’t think it has ever gotten its own thread as a formal suggestion. This would make the general add-on cooler and give the Raptor an even more useful and complete role as a radar/reconnaissance/advanced/fighter type platform. I think this would still be cool even if we don’t ever get stealth or cloaking, but the stealth and cloaking would certainly make it more useful.

Sounds nifty.

I think it makes more sense to just multiply your radar range by a specific coefficient. (think about it - why would the boost in radar power be able to penetrate 3x as far in a storm, but only 1.2x as far in empty space?)

That said, a ship with such abilities should probably be a lumbering giant... like a Trident, only slower and easier to kill. (think AWACS)

We'd need the ability to vector group members in first. For now, the only way to do that is to chase the target and have the groupies follow you to the target. Not a task for a lumbering giant.

Well relaying radar info to groups would be nice, but not necessary. Having a ship with an extended radar range would be useful in general and certainly could be a step towards what you are talking about, Lecter.

Cunjo, having the range increase by a specific coefficient would be fine for me, but I think that would be harder to implement if I had to guess. Either way would be fine really. However, I don't think there's any need to restrict these abilities to just Capitol ships. I don't see any problem with having it as a port add-on like we have now.

Bump. Most of my ideas I don't find as cool after a few weeks or months. However, I happen to still love this particular idea.

To summarize, I think there should be a push/pull relationship between radar extender add-ons and stealth add-ons. A ship with a 500m extender would be able to see a ship on their radar that a had a 4000m stealth from 1500m away. Someone without the extender would only be able to see the stealth ship from 1000m away. There could be all different variants of the 2 different types of add-ons with various different distances of extension or stealth. There would have to be some testing to see what distances would work best.

This would make for some really interesting gameplay, especially between pirates and traders. Maybe there could even be a 5000m stealth add-on that would make it so nobody could see the ship on radar from any distance without an extender. You couldn't target them so auto-aim and the lead-off indicator wouldn't work either. You would have to aim manually. I would see this as being a large port add-on and I imagine that it would consume energy so you couldn't use it all the time and you couldn't use energy weapons much with it engaged either. If traders began equipping these regularly, pirates would be almost forced to use extenders so they could effectively target their prey. Or it could work the other way around and the pirates could use the stealth add-ons to remain hidden from their prey until it's too late. I think it would make things interesting.

Hmmmm dev radar extender:
storm range: 9000,
regular range extension 5000
mass 200kg, 1cu.

One way to solve the vectoring problem is to have groups share radar information. Anything any ship in a group can see, all members of that group can see, no matter how distant.

As a general rule, I'd like to see ships that where idle, stationary, and opted to turn off their transponder, to not show up in the ship sector list at all, and show on radar as a roid. This would be a general type of stealth, not requiring any special equipment. If the ship employed thrusters (or brakes) or fired a weapon, it would lose this advantage, even if not in radar range.

Having the small extender act to triple radar range, and the large extender to increase range by 5, is an interesting idea.

I would like to also see this equipment be cumulative, employing an inverse square law, so that two large is not 10x, but rather 7.5x, etc...

I continue to find the Sector list the single worst feature in the game. If a ship is moving, and "powered up," it should show up on the Radar and nothing more. If it's stationary and perhaps in a "delay before booting back up" powered down no engines or weapons mode, it only shows up as a roid on the radar. Of course, the delay between becoming a ship on the radar again when bringing a ship back online (and which weapons take what time, too) and the time when the ship is ready to move and fire... is a great place to insert some depth and nuance. the CV, with its sprint ability (which needs to be returned to a meaningful ability, btw) could be a ship that could instantly go from down and stealth to up and radar signatured.

The radar extenders should do just that, rather than making someone's presence known on a list. Ideally, there would be radar suppressors: that until you're within X meters, even a moving and powered up ship carrying one shows on radar as a rock.

Here's why: when I enter a hostile sector, the first thing I do--whether hunting or concerned about my saftey--is hit U and check to see who is there. If nobody, I disengage from the game enviroment--I'm just passing through to somewhere I will actually play the game. If somebody, I instantly focus on them, being magically aware of their presence. That's not how it should be. We need to force pilots to live in the cockpit, not behind the screen and keyboard--make the radar, and the MK I eyeball scoping out all directions the way to evaluate the enviroment.

I agree that the sector list is abusive. I do not agree that simply being out of radar range should make you immune to the sector list. Any ship that is using thruster could be detectable, even if the radar can not pinpoint an exact location. Even more so for weapons fire and turbo. I do think that there should be situations, that you know a ship is in the area, even if you can not identify it's exact location. An ion storm could even amplify a telling sign of another ship, while at the same time making it more difficult to find it's exact location.

Making distinctions between the capabilities of passive and active sensors, and also ships that idle, are stationary, are using turbo, etc, could be a method to add interesting interactions to the game.

To clarify: I don't think that a ship approaching at 220 m/s, with guns hot & ready, should appear on the sector list, even if only a few meters away. I find the whole concept of a decidedly OOC list to be gamebreaking. More nuance in the radar signatures and some radar/general "ship in the area" sensor alerts would be, I think, far preferable to a list of what's out there--even a nerfed list.

Allow me to add my 2cents. This idea could be used in tangent with a "transponder"-type of thing. Every ship has one, you can turn it on or off. If it's on, you will show up in a list, since the transponder transmits your info to all parties in the area. If it's off, your -shiptype- will show up in the sector list, since your radar can detect what type of ship it is, but NOT who's politing it.. Once stealth-type things become a reality, they can even mask the presence of your ship in the list.

3 ships in the area, first 2 have their transponders on:
Vulture MkII - (UIT) BoredTrader
Behemoth - (UIT) WorkingTrader
Vulture (unknown variant) - *Unknown, No Transponder Response*

You'd have to decide, is that 'unmarked' vulture a pirate? an national Enemy? could be anyone..

break19

I like this disgussion. Lecter's talking visceral design and I like it. However,break has a point. We should figure out how to reconcile the sector list with the actual game instead of making it OOC like lecter said. It's existence seems justifiable as passive sensors, but we need to then give them some meaningful, game enhancing limitations.

I like the idea of being able to power down your ship and showing up as a roid on radar and not showing up on the sector list. There should be a stealth add-on that allows you do this while still moving or firing. Then there should be a stealth add-on that makes you not show up at all. Then there should be a cloak add-on that makes you invisible. Here are some basic add-on stats I was thinking about.

Basic Stealth:
Radar: Shows up as a roid. Firing any weapon makes you appear normally on radar for 3 seconds.
Port: Small
Energy Drain: 45/sec
Mass: 800kg
License Requirements: 7/7/-/7/7
Price: 30,000c

Advanced Stealth:
Radar: 5000m complete supression. Extenders make them show up as a roid at whatever distance the extender is rated at. Firing any weapon makes you appear normally on radar for 3 seconds.
Port: Large
Energy Drain: 50/sec
Mass: 1200kg
License Requirements: 8/-/8/8/8
Price: 90,000c

Cloaking Device:
Visual: Invisible, unless targetted on radar, in which case you will appear as a wire-frame. Firing any weapon makes you appear normally for 1 second.
Radar: Shows up as a roid, but only within 500m. If another ship has an extender, they will still show up as a roid, but just from a farther distance. Firing any weapon makes you appear normally on radar for 3 seconds.
Port: Large
Energy Drain: 55/sec
Mass: 2000kg
License Requirements: 8/-/8/9/9
Price: 150,000c

I think that a ship's radar cross section or whatever should be directly tied to the Power Cell being run.

Bump. The sector list should go away or be severely limited compared to the way it is now. We should also have radar suppressing stealth add-ons and maybe even a cloaking device. What do you say, devs?

I continue to think that the game should force players to observe their radar and the surrounding enviroment, rather than providing them with a data-feed/list that says instantly what is (and is not) out there.

I don't think of the "radar" as an actual radar but rather as a combination mass/energy detector with an IFF component - these are passive systems and don't require each ship to be constantly outputting EM radiation.

You can't hide your mass but you may be able to kill your energy output so that you simply display as as a 'roid (grey dot) as suggested until you power up. Powering up your engines should necessitate a delay, however, since it would mean a complete shutdown of the engines and all other systems.

As for IFF (and the Sector List), legal IFF transponder are probably designed to always be on (hence the Sector List). On the other hand, Corvus could engineer a device to mask the IFF transponder signal. But than TPG could also design a detector that reads individual energy signatures given off by engines (in much the same way subs identify each other from their acoustic signature). Both of these devices should take up a weapon slot - no free rides here; if you want the added capability, you need to sacrifice something for it.

Regarding the TPG Raptor, I'd like to see the built-in Storm Radar Extender able to do sector scans for ion storms, even if the range is only a few sectors. The one advantage the Raptor has is the ability to fight in ion storms but it lacks the ability to detect where they are. Unless you happen to be in a system with hive skirmishes taking place and can check the mission list, you need to hunt for them a sector at a time. No one flies the Raptor because their are so few times when it is advantageous to do so; something like this might help to make it a more interesting choice tactically.