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OS X has built-in spellchecking. It also applies to web forms in Safari windows. No excuse there.
"As for this thread, there is a gargantuan one waiting in the dark... Dare I bring it back?"
Link to it. I am certain there are several of these threads, and the most exhaustive ones should be included as reference on this discussion. I don't know what thread exactly you are referring to or I would link it myself.
Link to it. I am certain there are several of these threads, and the most exhaustive ones should be included as reference on this discussion. I don't know what thread exactly you are referring to or I would link it myself.
This is my vision:
All things will ultimately come from ore. Mining ore takes time. Services are rewarded with money, which can be used to buy goods, potentiolly saving time. Dying, and losing ships is not efficient; most of the resources put into a thing are lost upon destruction. The economy will essentially become miners scurrying to mine or as efficiently as possilbe, traders flying to deliver ore, and the manufactured goods as quickly as possible, fighters struggling over goods, or territory, etc. People who perform their trade more effectively than others will end up with more money, which essentially *is* time. Killing someone eliminates their time on earth; in VO it will still eliminate their time, only to a measurable degree.
All things will ultimately come from ore. Mining ore takes time. Services are rewarded with money, which can be used to buy goods, potentiolly saving time. Dying, and losing ships is not efficient; most of the resources put into a thing are lost upon destruction. The economy will essentially become miners scurrying to mine or as efficiently as possilbe, traders flying to deliver ore, and the manufactured goods as quickly as possible, fighters struggling over goods, or territory, etc. People who perform their trade more effectively than others will end up with more money, which essentially *is* time. Killing someone eliminates their time on earth; in VO it will still eliminate their time, only to a measurable degree.
I was about to post a nice long screed, but reversed myself.
The more I think about this, the more I believe that "crafting" and the economy are inextricably intertwined. Well, maybe not true "crafting" but at least a materials tree and manufacturing.
Stage 1: Raw Materials
We need mining for minerals to get metals/solids.
We could have ramscoops on out ships which get gases & stuff.
Stations orbiting habitable planets would have access to other raw materials, like food & organic stuff.
Stage 2: Refining Stage 1
We need machines which refine raw materials in order to make "better" stuff.
Stage 3: Refining Stage 2, 3 ... n
We need machines which refine stuff even more to whatever level of refining. Obviously the machines become harder to build and more expensive as they do cooler stuff.
Stage 4: Construction/Manufacturing Stage 1
Once raw materials are refined to whatever level, then they can be made into things that are useful. Other machines would be needed to do this stuff. Like clothing from cloth, gourmet steaks from space cows, etc.
Stage 5: Construction/Manufacturing Stage 2, 3 ... n
These machines would be harder to build and more expensive, but would do things like make Neutron Blasters Mk. III etc.
Stage 6: Whatever other widget-creation process is required for super-high-level items...
Obviously you'd need to write up the rules of manufacturing, what raw materials are required to make which widgets, What machines to run them through, how to make the machines, and how to make the machines that make other machines, etc. I imagine a gigantic tree structure with raw materials on the left, and more complex items as you move right, with paths on how to create the items linking them.
There would be an end goal to crafting, and that would be to build a company that could make more money. For example, it would be smart to build a Xithricite refinery near well-established reserves of Xithricite (like Pelatus.) There would be nothing stopping you from building one in, say, Jallik, but your operation would not be as profitable.
Imagine logging in, checking up on your company, making sure the NPC Traders from across the galaxy are able to buy your refined product for their own uses, ensuring that your NPC employees are mining enough Xith, and determining whether you need to hire more escorts... That would be great - you could spend your time duelling without worrying about making money yourself.
Plus then that opens up the door for hiring other players to do work for you, it opens up the door for your workers unionizing and perhaps going on strike, etc.
It's apparent to me now that the economy will require "crafting" up-front if it is to be successful.
The more I think about this, the more I believe that "crafting" and the economy are inextricably intertwined. Well, maybe not true "crafting" but at least a materials tree and manufacturing.
Stage 1: Raw Materials
We need mining for minerals to get metals/solids.
We could have ramscoops on out ships which get gases & stuff.
Stations orbiting habitable planets would have access to other raw materials, like food & organic stuff.
Stage 2: Refining Stage 1
We need machines which refine raw materials in order to make "better" stuff.
Stage 3: Refining Stage 2, 3 ... n
We need machines which refine stuff even more to whatever level of refining. Obviously the machines become harder to build and more expensive as they do cooler stuff.
Stage 4: Construction/Manufacturing Stage 1
Once raw materials are refined to whatever level, then they can be made into things that are useful. Other machines would be needed to do this stuff. Like clothing from cloth, gourmet steaks from space cows, etc.
Stage 5: Construction/Manufacturing Stage 2, 3 ... n
These machines would be harder to build and more expensive, but would do things like make Neutron Blasters Mk. III etc.
Stage 6: Whatever other widget-creation process is required for super-high-level items...
Obviously you'd need to write up the rules of manufacturing, what raw materials are required to make which widgets, What machines to run them through, how to make the machines, and how to make the machines that make other machines, etc. I imagine a gigantic tree structure with raw materials on the left, and more complex items as you move right, with paths on how to create the items linking them.
There would be an end goal to crafting, and that would be to build a company that could make more money. For example, it would be smart to build a Xithricite refinery near well-established reserves of Xithricite (like Pelatus.) There would be nothing stopping you from building one in, say, Jallik, but your operation would not be as profitable.
Imagine logging in, checking up on your company, making sure the NPC Traders from across the galaxy are able to buy your refined product for their own uses, ensuring that your NPC employees are mining enough Xith, and determining whether you need to hire more escorts... That would be great - you could spend your time duelling without worrying about making money yourself.
Plus then that opens up the door for hiring other players to do work for you, it opens up the door for your workers unionizing and perhaps going on strike, etc.
It's apparent to me now that the economy will require "crafting" up-front if it is to be successful.
Without having read much of the thread (Sorry, busy lately), just wanted to post and quickly say:
Leber, that's exactly where we're headed. People who have played "Port Royale 2" might have a greater familiarity with the general direction, and what functionality might be present for an "endgame" top-level trader / company owner / whatever. But basically, the core game will be the interrelation of raw materials, refinement, production, and economics. Much of the combat-level stuff will come *from* this, giving reasoning and galacto-political basis for what is going on and why one is fighting.
(This is also why Deliverator was so important to my development timeline, and why things have been so hampered by unexpected problems. It is the system that we intended to "do" this)
Leber, that's exactly where we're headed. People who have played "Port Royale 2" might have a greater familiarity with the general direction, and what functionality might be present for an "endgame" top-level trader / company owner / whatever. But basically, the core game will be the interrelation of raw materials, refinement, production, and economics. Much of the combat-level stuff will come *from* this, giving reasoning and galacto-political basis for what is going on and why one is fighting.
(This is also why Deliverator was so important to my development timeline, and why things have been so hampered by unexpected problems. It is the system that we intended to "do" this)
"gourmet steaks from space cows, etc."
What, you mean like, hive queens? Mmm... Prime Orun Collector Rib.
What, you mean like, hive queens? Mmm... Prime Orun Collector Rib.
Message type: bcc\\publication
Publication type: subscriber
Author: Dr. Thalmus Veroshen, UIT Ph.D.
Subject: 'Economics, Manufacture, and You: Part 3(of 3)'
[no header]
[main body format='text\plaintext']
Abstract:
This is the third of three brief articles that should serve as an introduction into modern economics, manufacturing, and how everyone is related to it.
Main:
In the last two articles, I presented a few basic concepts about our economy today. This, the third and final article, plans to tie everything together. We'll cover things such as limited and unlimited economics and how the two affect each other, quality and pricing, and the role people play in the manufacturing(otherwise known as fabbing) process.
Firstly, in the first article I mentioned that there was a distinction between limited and unlimited economics. Basically, unlimited economics is built mainly around the sell and trade of ideas and innovations. When not assaulted by government regulations to artificially scarcify suppy, ideas and innovations can be given away without incurring direct loss to any party. Simply put, if you have an idea and give your idea to your friend, you still have your original idea- but now your friend does to. The original idea won't disappear once you've given it away. Naturally, specific ideas have an infinite supply, but often are made scarce artificially, as I'll get into later.
Limited economics primarily deals with resources and labor. You can use resources for this, or labor for that, but you can't use the same amount of resources given to just this for both this AND that. Even more simply, you can give your resources to your friend, but you no longer have those resources(unlike with ideas). Naturally, resources and labor have a finite supply. You must budget your resources and labor, but you don't necessarily have to budget ideas.
Unfortunately, much of the time unlimited goods(ideas) are artificially scarcified to improve the cost for limited goods. Limited goods, to be turned into more refined limited goods, must have unlimited goods applied to them. The amount of value that a limited good(say, ore) increases by when an unlimited good is applied(say, refining) is based on how many people can apply the unlimited good. If only three people in the Nyrius system know how to refine ore, these three people can easily set the price of refined ore to what they would like. However, perhaps a fourth learns of the refining process- this fourth party can then introduce more refined ore into the system, increasing the supply and decreasing the price.
Because of the all too common artificial scarcity of unlimited goods, some people are able to make a living buying and selling ideas instead of physical things. For simplicity, we'll call these people "skill trainers". Skill trainers take a certain amount of their time(limited good, labor) to introduce an unlimited good(idea, innovation, process) to a particular person- for a price. The second person is then free to produce a refined limited good based on the unlimited good they received, spread the unlimited good, or both. Sometimes it's beneficial to spread knowledge- sometimes it isn't.
Secondly, different quality limited goods are priced differently. Often higher quality goods are priced higher than lower quality goods. The quality of a good can also vary with the particular unlimited good invested in it. Example: Ferrash owns a refinery. He can refine ore at a quality of 85% because he learned the basic process of refining ore after attending a few Ore Refiner's classes at the local community college; let's call this skill "Ore Refining". Morah, however, took a few more classes than his competitor Ferrash, and knows how to refine ore at a quality of 89%. We can call his skill "Ore Refining, level two" and change Ferrash's skill to "Ore Refining, level one".
As a business owner increases their skill in various processes, they gain a better quality refined limited good from the limited goods their unlimited good(the process) was applied to. However, obtaining an unlimited good takes time- sometimes negligible- which in itself is a limited good. So, you must spend limited goods to obtain unlimited goods, which in turn enhance more limited goods. I believe there is a saying, "It takes money to make money" that is applicable here.
And finally, students, people like you and I are the ones that must take their time to apply unlimited goods to limited ones, to make better limited goods that improve the quality of life for everyone. Basically, people create products by combining ideas and resources.
[:end]
Publication type: subscriber
Author: Dr. Thalmus Veroshen, UIT Ph.D.
Subject: 'Economics, Manufacture, and You: Part 3(of 3)'
[no header]
[main body format='text\plaintext']
Abstract:
This is the third of three brief articles that should serve as an introduction into modern economics, manufacturing, and how everyone is related to it.
Main:
In the last two articles, I presented a few basic concepts about our economy today. This, the third and final article, plans to tie everything together. We'll cover things such as limited and unlimited economics and how the two affect each other, quality and pricing, and the role people play in the manufacturing(otherwise known as fabbing) process.
Firstly, in the first article I mentioned that there was a distinction between limited and unlimited economics. Basically, unlimited economics is built mainly around the sell and trade of ideas and innovations. When not assaulted by government regulations to artificially scarcify suppy, ideas and innovations can be given away without incurring direct loss to any party. Simply put, if you have an idea and give your idea to your friend, you still have your original idea- but now your friend does to. The original idea won't disappear once you've given it away. Naturally, specific ideas have an infinite supply, but often are made scarce artificially, as I'll get into later.
Limited economics primarily deals with resources and labor. You can use resources for this, or labor for that, but you can't use the same amount of resources given to just this for both this AND that. Even more simply, you can give your resources to your friend, but you no longer have those resources(unlike with ideas). Naturally, resources and labor have a finite supply. You must budget your resources and labor, but you don't necessarily have to budget ideas.
Unfortunately, much of the time unlimited goods(ideas) are artificially scarcified to improve the cost for limited goods. Limited goods, to be turned into more refined limited goods, must have unlimited goods applied to them. The amount of value that a limited good(say, ore) increases by when an unlimited good is applied(say, refining) is based on how many people can apply the unlimited good. If only three people in the Nyrius system know how to refine ore, these three people can easily set the price of refined ore to what they would like. However, perhaps a fourth learns of the refining process- this fourth party can then introduce more refined ore into the system, increasing the supply and decreasing the price.
Because of the all too common artificial scarcity of unlimited goods, some people are able to make a living buying and selling ideas instead of physical things. For simplicity, we'll call these people "skill trainers". Skill trainers take a certain amount of their time(limited good, labor) to introduce an unlimited good(idea, innovation, process) to a particular person- for a price. The second person is then free to produce a refined limited good based on the unlimited good they received, spread the unlimited good, or both. Sometimes it's beneficial to spread knowledge- sometimes it isn't.
Secondly, different quality limited goods are priced differently. Often higher quality goods are priced higher than lower quality goods. The quality of a good can also vary with the particular unlimited good invested in it. Example: Ferrash owns a refinery. He can refine ore at a quality of 85% because he learned the basic process of refining ore after attending a few Ore Refiner's classes at the local community college; let's call this skill "Ore Refining". Morah, however, took a few more classes than his competitor Ferrash, and knows how to refine ore at a quality of 89%. We can call his skill "Ore Refining, level two" and change Ferrash's skill to "Ore Refining, level one".
As a business owner increases their skill in various processes, they gain a better quality refined limited good from the limited goods their unlimited good(the process) was applied to. However, obtaining an unlimited good takes time- sometimes negligible- which in itself is a limited good. So, you must spend limited goods to obtain unlimited goods, which in turn enhance more limited goods. I believe there is a saying, "It takes money to make money" that is applicable here.
And finally, students, people like you and I are the ones that must take their time to apply unlimited goods to limited ones, to make better limited goods that improve the quality of life for everyone. Basically, people create products by combining ideas and resources.
[:end]
But Doc, aren't the terms you described as limited and unlimited goods essentially one in the same? The knowledge I have that allows me to refine ore, or whatever is a direct result of the nutrience that feeds my brain. You can't have a thing, without it somewhere being physically hardwired into reality. It's a pleasant idea to believe that there are systems in the world with infinite supply, and within these theoretical boundaries nobody lives in need, but of course it all comes down to the necessities of life, for without those no kind of thinking can take place. All things have their price.
Or, by taking from the bounty of nature, one has access to infinate resources, that simply change in form, position, and degree.
Or, by taking from the bounty of nature, one has access to infinate resources, that simply change in form, position, and degree.
Greetings:
Well I just spent a few hours learning how to play "Port Royale 2" (PR2) so I could understand where the economy model was heading. I must say I was rather pleased to see them planning on using this type of model, it is in my mind the only way to deal with these types economies.
That said, there is one thing I would like to mention, that I think is needed in any MMORPG, that most seem to have totally missed. I also have a couple of things that PR2 does that I think are poorly managed, and should be improved upon for the VO model.
The thing that seems to be totally missed in all MMORPGs is the control of the money supply. There is essentially no regulation that limits the money supply, and events happen that allow for the continuous, and limitless production of currency. This is why, in all these games the currency of choice is always in a state of rapid devaluation and price inflation. No amount of influx control (heated asteroids for example) will ultimately solve this problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
What is needed is complete control of the money supply. No event in game should be allowed to create additional credits. All transactions should result in credits moving from one account, to another, and never, under any circumstance, create credits from nothing. Without this, inflation is inevitable and will continuously make credits more worthless.
The money supply needs to grow as the game population grows. This should be done by adjusting the home worlds station available credits up based on player activity. Some metric that is independent of the transfer of funds, for example total player online time at 10 credits a second, should determine exactly how much money is in circulation at any given time. This metric needs to be thought out, and probably tweaked as time goes on.
[Edit] On more thought, perhaps the growth should reflect the nations GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_Domestic_Product
GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)
[/edit]
Additionally, controls on how fast this number adjusts need to be in place, to insure that drastic occurrences such as credit hoarding, or player base fluctuation, does not instantly result in an insane economy.
At the end of the full production cycle, the final manufactured goods should all move towards the home world stations for sale. Selling here consumes the items, and adds its value in credits to the universal circulation through payment to the player or NPC trader. The speed these credits enter the system, can be controlled by the prices paid by the home station. When the money supply needs to be tightened, the home stations buy at or below item costs, when loosened, they pay higher prices for the same items, putting more money into circulation. Money spent by the stations during the production process, as wages etc, returns to the central station as well, thus creating a method for the removal of money in the event the supply needs to be tightened further.
Stations would maintain two accounts, operational and profits. Operational would contain enough funds to maintain the cost of producing enough lots of each production item to fill its capacity from empty. Profits would be used to fund the station missions. Financially profitable stations would therefore have more missions that are not profitable for the station like hive hunt and advanced combat practice. Stations that are low on funds would only have enough funds to pay for production, and procurement missions.
Additionally, by making currency a controlled trade good, each nation can have it's own currency, with the fates of war etc effecting the relative value of each. Special currency exchange stations within the UIT could allow for the transfer of funds between the two warring factions, adding another level to the battle for universal dominance.
The control of the supply of currency could also be used to insure that no side has the upper hand in the war. If a nation is falling far enough behind it's enemies, then the money supply could be loosened, so that it is easier for its citizens to acquire wealth, and therefore fight the enemy. The reverse control would obviously be just as useful in invisibly maintaining balance.
From the PR2 model, some things I don't think work in MMORPGs and especially VO.
Time based production would be bad. This would be nearly impossible to deal with, as more players enter the system, more strain would be put on the manufacturing operations, and therefore make playing, or starting, that much more difficult. If VO was to get a massive player influx, all trade routes would be near to un-profitable very quickly, as supply outstrips the current demand clock.
With time based production, station production would be at full capacity all the time with existing players This would leave new players out in the cold, and give them a very hard time in starting out. Additionally, the developers would be required to continuously alter the speed of production to suite the number of players. A self regulating dynamic system would be much better.
I propose that production should move as fast as material resource acquisition allows. This would mean that the moment enough resources were available to make the manufacturing process work, those resources would be expended and converted into the new product. Stations would have a maximum capacity of manufactured goods, so that the pipeline could plug, if nobody was taking the finished goods onto the next step in the process. This would also prevent hording and dumping, as the stations should have a maximum capacity in every item, and they will refuse to purchase additional items until they are below that capacity once again.
With this model in place, the real speed of player economic growth is hinged on player effort. Regardless of how much money is in the system, or how much NPC activity greases the production wheels, there will always be money available to the player in the form of mining, shipping goods to the home world, or transferring products from station to station.
Another thing I think VO should add, that was not in PR2, is lot sizes as they relate to production. In PR2 they had things like 0.2 tools produces 2.0 Coco /day. With production based not on time, but rather on availability and item capacity limits, this way of handling things unnecessarily complicates things. By doing a system that only deals in full units of cargo, and keeps away from having to worry about fractions in the production process, many difficulties would be avoided, such as what to do with partially used product, or how does production work for 0.1 tools?. An example of a production lot would be;10 Xithricite ore, 10 Ferric ore, 100 food, 100 water, 1 Hazmat Suit and 40,000 credits to produce 10,000 rounds of rail ammo.
Investing manufacturing and crafting:
Further down the road, a system like this makes all of the above very simple. I will start with investing.
Investing could be as simple as investing funds with a station. The investor would then receive a portion of the funds paid to the stations profits account, based on how much you have invested in the station out of its total operational capital. In this way you would share in the stations activity. Multiple investors could all invest, thus diluting the payments, but increasing the % of player involvement. The risks would come in the form of NPC convoys built and flown at the stations expense being lost.
Manufacturing would be simple. Select the item you wish to manufacture, provide the same materials the station uses to produce that item, hit the button, and the items convert to the new goods. Use this to avoid most of the normal station markup.
Crafting would opening up new items that are already pre-defined, as personally available to manufacture. These items would appear the same as any other good, available only at the specific stations where the manufacturing of these items could take place. I don't think that creating custom items, that are not blueprinted and therefore tested for balance, is desirable. That said, if the construction formulas stored in the databases were dynamic enough, and the building blocks appropriately restrictive, creating new formulas from existing building blocks could be possible.
In summary, I think heading down the path of a PR2 model for manufacture and trade is a good thing, but some fairly significant differences need to be applied to the model simply because of all the forms of player interaction an MMORPG like VO has.
Well I just spent a few hours learning how to play "Port Royale 2" (PR2) so I could understand where the economy model was heading. I must say I was rather pleased to see them planning on using this type of model, it is in my mind the only way to deal with these types economies.
That said, there is one thing I would like to mention, that I think is needed in any MMORPG, that most seem to have totally missed. I also have a couple of things that PR2 does that I think are poorly managed, and should be improved upon for the VO model.
The thing that seems to be totally missed in all MMORPGs is the control of the money supply. There is essentially no regulation that limits the money supply, and events happen that allow for the continuous, and limitless production of currency. This is why, in all these games the currency of choice is always in a state of rapid devaluation and price inflation. No amount of influx control (heated asteroids for example) will ultimately solve this problem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
What is needed is complete control of the money supply. No event in game should be allowed to create additional credits. All transactions should result in credits moving from one account, to another, and never, under any circumstance, create credits from nothing. Without this, inflation is inevitable and will continuously make credits more worthless.
The money supply needs to grow as the game population grows. This should be done by adjusting the home worlds station available credits up based on player activity. Some metric that is independent of the transfer of funds, for example total player online time at 10 credits a second, should determine exactly how much money is in circulation at any given time. This metric needs to be thought out, and probably tweaked as time goes on.
[Edit] On more thought, perhaps the growth should reflect the nations GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_Domestic_Product
GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)
[/edit]
Additionally, controls on how fast this number adjusts need to be in place, to insure that drastic occurrences such as credit hoarding, or player base fluctuation, does not instantly result in an insane economy.
At the end of the full production cycle, the final manufactured goods should all move towards the home world stations for sale. Selling here consumes the items, and adds its value in credits to the universal circulation through payment to the player or NPC trader. The speed these credits enter the system, can be controlled by the prices paid by the home station. When the money supply needs to be tightened, the home stations buy at or below item costs, when loosened, they pay higher prices for the same items, putting more money into circulation. Money spent by the stations during the production process, as wages etc, returns to the central station as well, thus creating a method for the removal of money in the event the supply needs to be tightened further.
Stations would maintain two accounts, operational and profits. Operational would contain enough funds to maintain the cost of producing enough lots of each production item to fill its capacity from empty. Profits would be used to fund the station missions. Financially profitable stations would therefore have more missions that are not profitable for the station like hive hunt and advanced combat practice. Stations that are low on funds would only have enough funds to pay for production, and procurement missions.
Additionally, by making currency a controlled trade good, each nation can have it's own currency, with the fates of war etc effecting the relative value of each. Special currency exchange stations within the UIT could allow for the transfer of funds between the two warring factions, adding another level to the battle for universal dominance.
The control of the supply of currency could also be used to insure that no side has the upper hand in the war. If a nation is falling far enough behind it's enemies, then the money supply could be loosened, so that it is easier for its citizens to acquire wealth, and therefore fight the enemy. The reverse control would obviously be just as useful in invisibly maintaining balance.
From the PR2 model, some things I don't think work in MMORPGs and especially VO.
Time based production would be bad. This would be nearly impossible to deal with, as more players enter the system, more strain would be put on the manufacturing operations, and therefore make playing, or starting, that much more difficult. If VO was to get a massive player influx, all trade routes would be near to un-profitable very quickly, as supply outstrips the current demand clock.
With time based production, station production would be at full capacity all the time with existing players This would leave new players out in the cold, and give them a very hard time in starting out. Additionally, the developers would be required to continuously alter the speed of production to suite the number of players. A self regulating dynamic system would be much better.
I propose that production should move as fast as material resource acquisition allows. This would mean that the moment enough resources were available to make the manufacturing process work, those resources would be expended and converted into the new product. Stations would have a maximum capacity of manufactured goods, so that the pipeline could plug, if nobody was taking the finished goods onto the next step in the process. This would also prevent hording and dumping, as the stations should have a maximum capacity in every item, and they will refuse to purchase additional items until they are below that capacity once again.
With this model in place, the real speed of player economic growth is hinged on player effort. Regardless of how much money is in the system, or how much NPC activity greases the production wheels, there will always be money available to the player in the form of mining, shipping goods to the home world, or transferring products from station to station.
Another thing I think VO should add, that was not in PR2, is lot sizes as they relate to production. In PR2 they had things like 0.2 tools produces 2.0 Coco /day. With production based not on time, but rather on availability and item capacity limits, this way of handling things unnecessarily complicates things. By doing a system that only deals in full units of cargo, and keeps away from having to worry about fractions in the production process, many difficulties would be avoided, such as what to do with partially used product, or how does production work for 0.1 tools?. An example of a production lot would be;10 Xithricite ore, 10 Ferric ore, 100 food, 100 water, 1 Hazmat Suit and 40,000 credits to produce 10,000 rounds of rail ammo.
Investing manufacturing and crafting:
Further down the road, a system like this makes all of the above very simple. I will start with investing.
Investing could be as simple as investing funds with a station. The investor would then receive a portion of the funds paid to the stations profits account, based on how much you have invested in the station out of its total operational capital. In this way you would share in the stations activity. Multiple investors could all invest, thus diluting the payments, but increasing the % of player involvement. The risks would come in the form of NPC convoys built and flown at the stations expense being lost.
Manufacturing would be simple. Select the item you wish to manufacture, provide the same materials the station uses to produce that item, hit the button, and the items convert to the new goods. Use this to avoid most of the normal station markup.
Crafting would opening up new items that are already pre-defined, as personally available to manufacture. These items would appear the same as any other good, available only at the specific stations where the manufacturing of these items could take place. I don't think that creating custom items, that are not blueprinted and therefore tested for balance, is desirable. That said, if the construction formulas stored in the databases were dynamic enough, and the building blocks appropriately restrictive, creating new formulas from existing building blocks could be possible.
In summary, I think heading down the path of a PR2 model for manufacture and trade is a good thing, but some fairly significant differences need to be applied to the model simply because of all the forms of player interaction an MMORPG like VO has.
Psy,
money sink: http://www.wowwiki.com/Money-sink
The real problem with controlling the "money supply" in a MMORPG is the lack of "money sinks".
In Real Life, you have the following money sinks:
Food, Shelter, Transportation, Taxes, Entertainment, Medical Treatment, Support family (friends with previous), etc.. etc.. etc..
In an MMORPG, you dont need to deal with any of that, to an unnatural extent. You dont need to eat, sleep, be sheltered, deal with health conditions, etc.. These things are left OUT FOR A REASON... AKA: REAL LIFE SUCKS! You play MMORPG to avoid dealing with that stuff.
However, "economy" is based off the "real world" so you must suppliment somethings to have an "economy" that people can "relate" to and enjoy. We all want to be very rich and powerful, but money sinks in real life keep 99.9% of the world from becoming rich. If 99.9% of the people playing MMORPG couldnt become rich, then you wouldnt have 99.9% of people playing (really rich people play real life...).
I digress.
This has been discussed a number of times, but money sinks are the only way to keep credits from becoming worthless. Right now, there are no money sinks other than repurchasing your ship.
There must be motivators for money sinks. War is a great money sink, and all of its bi-products are great money sinks. Unlike WOW, when you die, all your gear/ship/weapons is lost. Unlike WOW, finding and purchasing gear is not a time consuming issue, so it is no problem.
I know it would be more difficult than... well... anyway. I believe the BEST money sink for VO would be for ALOT more add-ons for your ship. Since this is a "First person shooter" type of game, things that modify your ship is DEFINANTLY much more attractive than trying to assemble parts to produce "consumer electronics" or other such stuff. More components make for more expensive ships, without raising the price of existing equipment. Also adding "fuel" would be another money good money sink that actually makes sense. Shields, additional thruster slots, larger enginees, sensor slots, weapon modification slots (weapon cooling systems, etc..) would make a ship more customizable, AND be a great way to waste credits while giving you more to think about when you decide to go head on against an idle Nemisis in Deneb B-12.
money sink: http://www.wowwiki.com/Money-sink
The real problem with controlling the "money supply" in a MMORPG is the lack of "money sinks".
In Real Life, you have the following money sinks:
Food, Shelter, Transportation, Taxes, Entertainment, Medical Treatment, Support family (friends with previous), etc.. etc.. etc..
In an MMORPG, you dont need to deal with any of that, to an unnatural extent. You dont need to eat, sleep, be sheltered, deal with health conditions, etc.. These things are left OUT FOR A REASON... AKA: REAL LIFE SUCKS! You play MMORPG to avoid dealing with that stuff.
However, "economy" is based off the "real world" so you must suppliment somethings to have an "economy" that people can "relate" to and enjoy. We all want to be very rich and powerful, but money sinks in real life keep 99.9% of the world from becoming rich. If 99.9% of the people playing MMORPG couldnt become rich, then you wouldnt have 99.9% of people playing (really rich people play real life...).
I digress.
This has been discussed a number of times, but money sinks are the only way to keep credits from becoming worthless. Right now, there are no money sinks other than repurchasing your ship.
There must be motivators for money sinks. War is a great money sink, and all of its bi-products are great money sinks. Unlike WOW, when you die, all your gear/ship/weapons is lost. Unlike WOW, finding and purchasing gear is not a time consuming issue, so it is no problem.
I know it would be more difficult than... well... anyway. I believe the BEST money sink for VO would be for ALOT more add-ons for your ship. Since this is a "First person shooter" type of game, things that modify your ship is DEFINANTLY much more attractive than trying to assemble parts to produce "consumer electronics" or other such stuff. More components make for more expensive ships, without raising the price of existing equipment. Also adding "fuel" would be another money good money sink that actually makes sense. Shields, additional thruster slots, larger enginees, sensor slots, weapon modification slots (weapon cooling systems, etc..) would make a ship more customizable, AND be a great way to waste credits while giving you more to think about when you decide to go head on against an idle Nemisis in Deneb B-12.
Well actually I think that we are someday going to have fully modable ships no?
Meaning that you get to choose the chassis, the amrmor, the weapons, the engines... That would be fun and give you a good reason to use the presets button too!
And for marginal gains (say the best Valk you can custom buil would have 500 more AR weigh 100kg less and have .1 more spin or something like that) but ends up costing 4-5 times more than the valk we have nows. Well maybe not that much but anyway.
Meaning that you get to choose the chassis, the amrmor, the weapons, the engines... That would be fun and give you a good reason to use the presets button too!
And for marginal gains (say the best Valk you can custom buil would have 500 more AR weigh 100kg less and have .1 more spin or something like that) but ends up costing 4-5 times more than the valk we have nows. Well maybe not that much but anyway.
antirelic:
I am not opposed to money sinks, and I do think they are a valuable tool.
(See http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16082?page=2#203160)
They are however eventually are self defeating. If you are required to use the items from the money sink to compete, you force everyone to use them, even the casual player, and you end up with a different form of inflation. If they are not required, the hording type of players will never "invest" in them, and therefore the purpose which they serve is never realized.
That said, I would never suggest, and had no intention or desire to see the economy part of this game take over from the battles, nor would I support a game where there was an excessive grind system just to get ahead. People want wealth, power, a sense of accomplishment, and fun. I envision this game heading to where players have in addition to the one ship they are piloting at any given time, fleets of traders under orders, entire wings of fighters for large scale battles, huge investment portfolios so those battles don't bankrupt them, and capital ships that cost tons of cash for engaging in the next level types of battles they would be suited for.
Ultimately those fleets and capital ships are going to be huge money sinks. People who want those things are going to have to devote more than fighter pilot time towards them. They will require having trader ships, and miners, and fighter escorts. Unless the build of up those things takes work, the eventual possession of capital ships will be worthless, and offer no sense of accomplishment when you do manage to buy your first HAC.
Additionally, what I was proposing was only suggested refinements of the model that incarnate has already said the game was moving.
( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16119#203801 ) I had hopped to help refine the suggested model so that it allowed for continuous growth and wealth of the entire system, in a completely sane way.
It is important to note, that the instant you purchase a final product for use (ships and gear) all the production money for that item becomes part of the general economy by becoming part of the stations profit. This opens up the ability for stations to pay more for products, fund missions, construct more ships etc. There is no artificial limit on this, only control on how much money is in circulation to prevent unstable inflation.
This model is used in real life economics, but does not need to be understood by the player, any more than it needs to be understood when you buy a burger. Nor does it have to be implemented to such a degree that the game becomes too much like real life. We don't need to add in food, shelter, taxes etc. We can choose to only add those things that are fun, like add-ons, weapons, ships, etc. The system would just keep things under control.
I am not opposed to money sinks, and I do think they are a valuable tool.
(See http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16082?page=2#203160)
They are however eventually are self defeating. If you are required to use the items from the money sink to compete, you force everyone to use them, even the casual player, and you end up with a different form of inflation. If they are not required, the hording type of players will never "invest" in them, and therefore the purpose which they serve is never realized.
That said, I would never suggest, and had no intention or desire to see the economy part of this game take over from the battles, nor would I support a game where there was an excessive grind system just to get ahead. People want wealth, power, a sense of accomplishment, and fun. I envision this game heading to where players have in addition to the one ship they are piloting at any given time, fleets of traders under orders, entire wings of fighters for large scale battles, huge investment portfolios so those battles don't bankrupt them, and capital ships that cost tons of cash for engaging in the next level types of battles they would be suited for.
Ultimately those fleets and capital ships are going to be huge money sinks. People who want those things are going to have to devote more than fighter pilot time towards them. They will require having trader ships, and miners, and fighter escorts. Unless the build of up those things takes work, the eventual possession of capital ships will be worthless, and offer no sense of accomplishment when you do manage to buy your first HAC.
Additionally, what I was proposing was only suggested refinements of the model that incarnate has already said the game was moving.
( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16119#203801 ) I had hopped to help refine the suggested model so that it allowed for continuous growth and wealth of the entire system, in a completely sane way.
It is important to note, that the instant you purchase a final product for use (ships and gear) all the production money for that item becomes part of the general economy by becoming part of the stations profit. This opens up the ability for stations to pay more for products, fund missions, construct more ships etc. There is no artificial limit on this, only control on how much money is in circulation to prevent unstable inflation.
This model is used in real life economics, but does not need to be understood by the player, any more than it needs to be understood when you buy a burger. Nor does it have to be implemented to such a degree that the game becomes too much like real life. We don't need to add in food, shelter, taxes etc. We can choose to only add those things that are fun, like add-ons, weapons, ships, etc. The system would just keep things under control.