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Economy Recommendations (long read)
I've been thinking about the economy of VO and ways to make it better. I know alot of what I am going to type may seem a bit distant, but if anything from it can be used to help improve on the game, so be it.
Player Driven Economy:
I was thinking about ways to make the economy in the game more player driven. The only plausible way I can think of doing this, is through the use of Guilds. Guilds would be the primary driving force behind the Galactic economy, while free lance players could easily fill in specilized rolls that perhaps guilds do not have the man power to cover (i'll go more into this as the post goes on). Ultimately the economy I envision, would be to fuel the war between the Itani and the Secro. This would give a more clear goal to the UIT: Be the sole economic super power in the galaxy and ensure neither the Secro nor the Itani win the war (thus maintaining its supremacy as its neighbors are locked in conflict).
Model of the Economy / Player Guilds:
1. In order to make player guilds more influential in the game, player guilds need to play a large role in the shape of the gaming Universe economy. To do this, the default stations need to offer less options, while retaining the ability to deliver infinite quantity of the lowest quality goods (to keep any side from completely collapsing).
2. In order to give players input to what is available in the game, guilds will need to be able to construct base stations. Guild Base Stations should have a finite life span and require continual maintenance to ensure that finite construction zones are not littered with Base Stations of defunct guilds (stations require care and feeding or else they decay and fall apart).
2a. Stations need to be given a certain amount of credits in order to purchase objects from Player merchants. Money from purchases will go to the stations acount for continued operation.
3. Guild base stations, should need to be created via the completion of scores of missions that should take scores of man hours to complete. This will ensure that only active guilds with a strong player base, occupy finite sectors where bases can be created.
4. Guild Base stations should be built with specific capabilities in mind upon creation. Research, Mining, Commercial and Manufacturing.
4a. Research base stations provide a guild with a new technology after varying amounts of differing materials are brought to the station. Only one technology should be available to be researched at any particular time, and each segment of research should take a significant amount of time (with potential breakthrough periods inbetween the greatest and shortest amount of time). Research areas could be:
- Energy Weapons (Plasma II, III, Nuetron I, II, III)
- Light Ship Design (Centurion II, III)
- Light/Med Ship Design (Warthog II, III)
- Medium Ship Design (Hornet II, III)
- Heavy Ship Design (Rag II, III)
- *Faction Specific Design (Prom/Valk I, II, III)
- **Capital Ship Design
- Missile Weapons
- Rocket Weapons
- *Heavy Weapons Design
- Light Manufacturing Techniques
- Medium Manufacturing Techniques
- Energy Weapons Manufacturing Techniques
etc..
* - Requires completed tech trees of a similiar technology type before starting.
** - Requires 2 completed tech trees of a similiar tech type before starting.
After each technology is created, research then must begin on how to "mass produce" this new technology. Researching the manufacturing technology should not take as long or cost as much as the research into developing the object.
4b. Manufacturing plants should have a maximum of 2-4 "assembly lines". Each assembly line has a default speed at which they can produce items based on size and complexity, and the level of technology that "assembly line" uses in producing that item (for example, a plant with a "level 0 heavy ship" design may take 1 day to produce a Rag II, while an assembly line with "level 3 heavy ship manufacturing" may produce a Rag every 1 hour. Manufacturing plants require material to build the objects in which they manufacture (ships, weapons, etc..). What they can produce should depend completely on the Manufacturing Schematics they have available and the resources that are stored on the station.
- These stations will only sell finished products for delivery.
- These stations should only be able to store a limited amount of resources for production to ensure that a constant care and feeding of this station happens.
4c. Commercial Stations are the cheapest station to set up, but also provide the least direct benefit. Commercial Stations are places where guilds can bring goods for other players to buy and sell. Players will need to set a "purchase price" and a "sale price" for goods. A station should be limited to 20-40 objects to purchase/sell at a particular station (this station will also require its own starting funds to be successfull). Players will set up commercial stations in areas where they feel they will gain the most benefit from having it. Commercial Stations can be a place where many different guilds can bring finished products to buy and sell...
4d. Mining/Refining Stations. These are the bottom end of the spectrum, and should produce "base goods" that are needed in both the "research and manufacturing" process. Stations will have to be "tooled" specifically for the objects that they need to produce, and this will determine the type of "ore" that this station needs (and will also dictate the location of where the guild places the station).
Ultimatley, by making the availability of much sought after objects (such as nuetron blasters, proms, valks, cap ships, etc..) the responsibility of players to produce, you create a more immersive experience for everyone. Supply and demand will balance the economy (eventually), and those who take the risks will be rewarded (groups who take the risk). Alliances will have to be formed (as no one guild will ever be able to have all technologies and produce all types of objects). This will also give very long term goals and objectives to players.
Player Driven Economy:
I was thinking about ways to make the economy in the game more player driven. The only plausible way I can think of doing this, is through the use of Guilds. Guilds would be the primary driving force behind the Galactic economy, while free lance players could easily fill in specilized rolls that perhaps guilds do not have the man power to cover (i'll go more into this as the post goes on). Ultimately the economy I envision, would be to fuel the war between the Itani and the Secro. This would give a more clear goal to the UIT: Be the sole economic super power in the galaxy and ensure neither the Secro nor the Itani win the war (thus maintaining its supremacy as its neighbors are locked in conflict).
Model of the Economy / Player Guilds:
1. In order to make player guilds more influential in the game, player guilds need to play a large role in the shape of the gaming Universe economy. To do this, the default stations need to offer less options, while retaining the ability to deliver infinite quantity of the lowest quality goods (to keep any side from completely collapsing).
2. In order to give players input to what is available in the game, guilds will need to be able to construct base stations. Guild Base Stations should have a finite life span and require continual maintenance to ensure that finite construction zones are not littered with Base Stations of defunct guilds (stations require care and feeding or else they decay and fall apart).
2a. Stations need to be given a certain amount of credits in order to purchase objects from Player merchants. Money from purchases will go to the stations acount for continued operation.
3. Guild base stations, should need to be created via the completion of scores of missions that should take scores of man hours to complete. This will ensure that only active guilds with a strong player base, occupy finite sectors where bases can be created.
4. Guild Base stations should be built with specific capabilities in mind upon creation. Research, Mining, Commercial and Manufacturing.
4a. Research base stations provide a guild with a new technology after varying amounts of differing materials are brought to the station. Only one technology should be available to be researched at any particular time, and each segment of research should take a significant amount of time (with potential breakthrough periods inbetween the greatest and shortest amount of time). Research areas could be:
- Energy Weapons (Plasma II, III, Nuetron I, II, III)
- Light Ship Design (Centurion II, III)
- Light/Med Ship Design (Warthog II, III)
- Medium Ship Design (Hornet II, III)
- Heavy Ship Design (Rag II, III)
- *Faction Specific Design (Prom/Valk I, II, III)
- **Capital Ship Design
- Missile Weapons
- Rocket Weapons
- *Heavy Weapons Design
- Light Manufacturing Techniques
- Medium Manufacturing Techniques
- Energy Weapons Manufacturing Techniques
etc..
* - Requires completed tech trees of a similiar technology type before starting.
** - Requires 2 completed tech trees of a similiar tech type before starting.
After each technology is created, research then must begin on how to "mass produce" this new technology. Researching the manufacturing technology should not take as long or cost as much as the research into developing the object.
4b. Manufacturing plants should have a maximum of 2-4 "assembly lines". Each assembly line has a default speed at which they can produce items based on size and complexity, and the level of technology that "assembly line" uses in producing that item (for example, a plant with a "level 0 heavy ship" design may take 1 day to produce a Rag II, while an assembly line with "level 3 heavy ship manufacturing" may produce a Rag every 1 hour. Manufacturing plants require material to build the objects in which they manufacture (ships, weapons, etc..). What they can produce should depend completely on the Manufacturing Schematics they have available and the resources that are stored on the station.
- These stations will only sell finished products for delivery.
- These stations should only be able to store a limited amount of resources for production to ensure that a constant care and feeding of this station happens.
4c. Commercial Stations are the cheapest station to set up, but also provide the least direct benefit. Commercial Stations are places where guilds can bring goods for other players to buy and sell. Players will need to set a "purchase price" and a "sale price" for goods. A station should be limited to 20-40 objects to purchase/sell at a particular station (this station will also require its own starting funds to be successfull). Players will set up commercial stations in areas where they feel they will gain the most benefit from having it. Commercial Stations can be a place where many different guilds can bring finished products to buy and sell...
4d. Mining/Refining Stations. These are the bottom end of the spectrum, and should produce "base goods" that are needed in both the "research and manufacturing" process. Stations will have to be "tooled" specifically for the objects that they need to produce, and this will determine the type of "ore" that this station needs (and will also dictate the location of where the guild places the station).
Ultimatley, by making the availability of much sought after objects (such as nuetron blasters, proms, valks, cap ships, etc..) the responsibility of players to produce, you create a more immersive experience for everyone. Supply and demand will balance the economy (eventually), and those who take the risks will be rewarded (groups who take the risk). Alliances will have to be formed (as no one guild will ever be able to have all technologies and produce all types of objects). This will also give very long term goals and objectives to players.
I agree with what you are suggesting. I think the devs are trying to move towards something like this in the long run. There have been several threads on similar topics. Here's a biggie on "crafting":
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406
I especially like the idea of guilds taking ownership of stations. Players would be entirely responsible for producing all the stuff we need to play the game. Instead of just sitting around in Latos waiting for someone to duel with, we'd actually have stuff to do all the time that needs to be done, and if we didn't do that stuff, we wouldn't have guns and ships to play with when our homework was done.
I also like the idea of commercial stations where you can set the buy price and sell price of any good or item. They'd become hubs where players would have easy access to an assortment of different stuff. You could get the merchandise cheaper somewhere else (like where it was originally built) but at the expense of the convenience of one-stop shopping.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406
I especially like the idea of guilds taking ownership of stations. Players would be entirely responsible for producing all the stuff we need to play the game. Instead of just sitting around in Latos waiting for someone to duel with, we'd actually have stuff to do all the time that needs to be done, and if we didn't do that stuff, we wouldn't have guns and ships to play with when our homework was done.
I also like the idea of commercial stations where you can set the buy price and sell price of any good or item. They'd become hubs where players would have easy access to an assortment of different stuff. You could get the merchandise cheaper somewhere else (like where it was originally built) but at the expense of the convenience of one-stop shopping.
I don't agree that players should be responsible for EVERYTHING we use. The current system with NPC convoys is good, if you just add the fact that they matter it would make a very interesting dynamic.
The only thing I fear (yes ph34r!) with the new economy thingy is that it could become way too complicated and then it would a) scare the noobs off and b) be too much of a hassle for people with little time to take interest in.
Because face it, sure you will have people that play 5-8 hours a day, but many (if not most people) can't/won't be able to allocate that much time to the game.
The only thing I fear (yes ph34r!) with the new economy thingy is that it could become way too complicated and then it would a) scare the noobs off and b) be too much of a hassle for people with little time to take interest in.
Because face it, sure you will have people that play 5-8 hours a day, but many (if not most people) can't/won't be able to allocate that much time to the game.
The system that I recommended above, isnt too much different then the system we have in place now from a n00bs perspective. Its the behind the scenes mechanics that will be beyond the scope of the n00bs, but again, that would be a system more oriented for the veteran players.
As I stated, there will always be a need for 1.) permanant stations, that have 2.) an infinite quanityt of 3.) the lowest quality items. This will ensure that resources are always available for those who do not know how to get it.
Also, the system that I recommended does not require "individual skill". This is more about time, materials, and asset management. Instead of a station having an "infinite" supply of anything, it will all be a balance of "resources in / resources out".
As I stated, there will always be a need for 1.) permanant stations, that have 2.) an infinite quanityt of 3.) the lowest quality items. This will ensure that resources are always available for those who do not know how to get it.
Also, the system that I recommended does not require "individual skill". This is more about time, materials, and asset management. Instead of a station having an "infinite" supply of anything, it will all be a balance of "resources in / resources out".
Yeah my comment was not directed necessarily at your idea, but the idea of dynamic economy (that I like a lot .
We're moving towards making the economy dynamic, although it will not be completely player-driven. Doing that would result in very large potential imbalances, not to mention empowering player groups in ways that could totally wreak havoc in the game.
NPC convoys will be the balancing factor. Players will still be able to significantly impact the economy, but with NPCs we can still guarantee that a given station will have enough raw materials to continue manufacturing during lower periods of player population. It'll still be possible to blockade stations, preventing convoys (PC or NPC) from arriving, and therefore causing interesting problems. But it'll require some effort to do so.
Achieving an economic system in which PCs and NPCs are interchangable is a big part of why Deliverator was developed. This goes into a lot of areas.. Hive expansion, for instance. If enough Player Characters don't take the anti-hive missions, NPCs will step in to try and keep the Hive somewhat in check.
The instabilities of deliverator are also what has prevented these features from being in production. We expected them to be live by now. But, hopefully we'll begin moving towards that goal again by the end of this week.
NPC convoys will be the balancing factor. Players will still be able to significantly impact the economy, but with NPCs we can still guarantee that a given station will have enough raw materials to continue manufacturing during lower periods of player population. It'll still be possible to blockade stations, preventing convoys (PC or NPC) from arriving, and therefore causing interesting problems. But it'll require some effort to do so.
Achieving an economic system in which PCs and NPCs are interchangable is a big part of why Deliverator was developed. This goes into a lot of areas.. Hive expansion, for instance. If enough Player Characters don't take the anti-hive missions, NPCs will step in to try and keep the Hive somewhat in check.
The instabilities of deliverator are also what has prevented these features from being in production. We expected them to be live by now. But, hopefully we'll begin moving towards that goal again by the end of this week.
I agree players can cause a game economy to go into a tailspin. However, I do wonder about the potential resource overhead having to manage bott fleets even players arent active in sectors. Are these things timed? Perhaps having botts appear based on mission would be more machine friendly (thus giving management servers a bit of a break as far as resoruces go). Ambient activities are a nice to see, but in such a vast universe, perhaps its not necessary (as in Hive botts becoming overflowing).
While I know VO is much more complicated, I ran a database driven NWN persistent world (Mysql based) in which alot of ambient actions were occuring in the beginning... and towards the end... triggers became much more common and things kinda splodded after being alive w/o acting for too long (extra cpu cycles savings).
A "for granted" infinite economy is understandable and often taken for granted and accepted by the player base (stock items for sale to give things for new players to do, that never run out, and never really fluctuate in price). Making more powerful objects a source of contention is what makes the world turn. If the fate of "N3"'s were determined by a factions ability to transport Helociene ore from Grey Space to a Manufacturing plant, the ore will be worth alot, to EVERYONE (pirates, UIT, ITANI and Secro) for one reason or another.
Of course, I'm just throwing out suggesstions. I know players have a way of finding and sticking with one particular combination because it gives them the top .05% advantage over all other combinations... which can make the production of anything else... well... never happen. Of course, making different missions which require different tools (needing a heavy rag versus being able to do everything with a Cent for example) will eventually even those types of imbalances out without really retooling any existing weaponry/ships/objects.
While I know VO is much more complicated, I ran a database driven NWN persistent world (Mysql based) in which alot of ambient actions were occuring in the beginning... and towards the end... triggers became much more common and things kinda splodded after being alive w/o acting for too long (extra cpu cycles savings).
A "for granted" infinite economy is understandable and often taken for granted and accepted by the player base (stock items for sale to give things for new players to do, that never run out, and never really fluctuate in price). Making more powerful objects a source of contention is what makes the world turn. If the fate of "N3"'s were determined by a factions ability to transport Helociene ore from Grey Space to a Manufacturing plant, the ore will be worth alot, to EVERYONE (pirates, UIT, ITANI and Secro) for one reason or another.
Of course, I'm just throwing out suggesstions. I know players have a way of finding and sticking with one particular combination because it gives them the top .05% advantage over all other combinations... which can make the production of anything else... well... never happen. Of course, making different missions which require different tools (needing a heavy rag versus being able to do everything with a Cent for example) will eventually even those types of imbalances out without really retooling any existing weaponry/ships/objects.
We already have events posting missions (trade requests, hive attacks, etc) that NPCs respond to in the form of hive assaults and trade convoys. It's already in place. It just isn't tied into the economy as of yet, as we're also going to be redoing that. We're also in the midst of fixing some unrelated but underlying architectural issues. We don't have to "manage bot fleets" or keep sectors live, their behaviours can be simulated via lightweight code offline, and outcomes are determined with a minimum of overhead. If we had to fully simulate physics, collisions and pathfinding behaviour for every single bot in the game, regardless of whether a user was even in the sector, that would indeed be a giant resource overhead.. and would make us Dumb.
So, anyway. Yes, dynamic economy good. No, completely player-driven economy bad. Yes, item and resource contention good. Resource contention is going to become one of the largest PvE gameplay aspects, as the corporations and nations vie with the Hive for minerals and such. If they cannot acquire enough, stations will be impacted in very real ways (price, availability of items, and so on). I've discussed this in greater detail in other threads, so I'll leave it at that for now.
So, anyway. Yes, dynamic economy good. No, completely player-driven economy bad. Yes, item and resource contention good. Resource contention is going to become one of the largest PvE gameplay aspects, as the corporations and nations vie with the Hive for minerals and such. If they cannot acquire enough, stations will be impacted in very real ways (price, availability of items, and so on). I've discussed this in greater detail in other threads, so I'll leave it at that for now.