Forums » Suggestions
First off, I know there's bound to be a dozen million threads of this sort, but all their titles are lame, like "fly my pretty fly"... so here are my ideas. Feel free to pick them apart, and offer critism and ideas alike. My brain child is yours' for the sacrifice.
Now, if you can single handedly man and fly a capital ship, you deserve to own it. But of course, that naturally leaves you open to more risks. I mean to say, shouldn't capital ships be so advanced, and complicated that it'd be well worth it to have at least half a guildsworth of people man it? Think of it...
A helmsman, who's sole job is to navigate the huge sucker through those huge clusters of asteroids that clog the way through wormholes.
An engineer, with several different batteries to cycle back and forth, always diverting energy to the different parts of the ship (Fore weapons, aft weapons, engines, turbo, auxillary, what have you...) so that whatever was needed at the moment had the appropriate energy. And don't forget those pesky docked fighters that are always wanting refuelling and repairs.
Weapons, including those who would man turrets, scramble their fighters/mineral collects at the appropriate times, and perhaps worry about targeting, keeping an eye out on sensor readings of nearby ships/asteroids. And someone's got to be in charge of all those Dentek Assault bots you keep on board in case of an emergency. =)
And of course, the lofty position of Captain. With everything else taken care of, you can sit on your well earned bridge, and only give the appropriate commands where necessary. It's your job do decide who's in charge of what, or take over and do it all yourself.
Optional: Communications, because there's bound to be tons of paperwork involved with running a cappy. Even in the midst of a suprise pirate attack, a convoy of behemoths might be desperately trying to negotiate safe passage aboard your mighty Constellation. Or perhaps it's up to you to set prices on the go while traders travel from across the universe to buy from Dr. Lecter's Mobile Commercial Base.
Notice that the only change I really suggested is a more complicated method of batteries, and the captain's ability to decide who can control what, for how many jellybeans. The rest is completely born from a player's imaginiation, but not any less useful. The key to making capital ships fun, is to ensure that the roles are as limitless as the people available to fill them, without making them necessary. There's no reason why a single captain couldn't fly his ship alone. But it's humanity's gift to be able to work effectively in groups, with each member contributing what he/she does best.
Now, if you can single handedly man and fly a capital ship, you deserve to own it. But of course, that naturally leaves you open to more risks. I mean to say, shouldn't capital ships be so advanced, and complicated that it'd be well worth it to have at least half a guildsworth of people man it? Think of it...
A helmsman, who's sole job is to navigate the huge sucker through those huge clusters of asteroids that clog the way through wormholes.
An engineer, with several different batteries to cycle back and forth, always diverting energy to the different parts of the ship (Fore weapons, aft weapons, engines, turbo, auxillary, what have you...) so that whatever was needed at the moment had the appropriate energy. And don't forget those pesky docked fighters that are always wanting refuelling and repairs.
Weapons, including those who would man turrets, scramble their fighters/mineral collects at the appropriate times, and perhaps worry about targeting, keeping an eye out on sensor readings of nearby ships/asteroids. And someone's got to be in charge of all those Dentek Assault bots you keep on board in case of an emergency. =)
And of course, the lofty position of Captain. With everything else taken care of, you can sit on your well earned bridge, and only give the appropriate commands where necessary. It's your job do decide who's in charge of what, or take over and do it all yourself.
Optional: Communications, because there's bound to be tons of paperwork involved with running a cappy. Even in the midst of a suprise pirate attack, a convoy of behemoths might be desperately trying to negotiate safe passage aboard your mighty Constellation. Or perhaps it's up to you to set prices on the go while traders travel from across the universe to buy from Dr. Lecter's Mobile Commercial Base.
Notice that the only change I really suggested is a more complicated method of batteries, and the captain's ability to decide who can control what, for how many jellybeans. The rest is completely born from a player's imaginiation, but not any less useful. The key to making capital ships fun, is to ensure that the roles are as limitless as the people available to fill them, without making them necessary. There's no reason why a single captain couldn't fly his ship alone. But it's humanity's gift to be able to work effectively in groups, with each member contributing what he/she does best.
As for balancing the number of capital ships, these things are required:
Cappys require scrap metal, ore, and credits for production.
Traders receive credits at a prodigious rate.
Miners collect ore.
Botters collect both ore and scrap metal.
Pirates collect scrap metal.
Now, let X equal the amount of man hours needed to produce one Cap-ship.
And, let Y equal the amount of Cap-ships in the universe.
Through mining/botting/trading, it would take let's say... about 50 man hours to get the necessary supplies.
Through pirating though, you could collect, say 1/4th the necessary scrap metal, so that for every 4 capital ships you destory, you pretty much get a free one. This would take say... 50 man hours divided by the number of Cap-ships in the universe, because the more abundant they are, the easier it is for pirates to collect on them.
In this case, as Y increases, X decreases, giving a more or less stable amount of Cap-ships in the universe. The devs could easily change the amount of ore and scrap, and credits, thus the number of hours it takes for a ship to be produced, and accurately change the projected number of ships in the universe to whatever they wish. I think the production of all ships should be based on something like this when the economy becomes dynamic.
The reason why this system works, is because it closely models a food chain within a closed ecosystem. The asteroids and hive bots are autotrophs, an infinately regrowing source of nutrients. The miners, traders, and botters, are all herbivores, collecting nutrients, and growing into large capital ships. Pirates are the carnivores, only collecting nutrients from other developed ships, through the least efficient, but quickest form of attacking one another. In this closed system of competition, there will naturally yield a balance of producers, and consumers.
Cappys require scrap metal, ore, and credits for production.
Traders receive credits at a prodigious rate.
Miners collect ore.
Botters collect both ore and scrap metal.
Pirates collect scrap metal.
Now, let X equal the amount of man hours needed to produce one Cap-ship.
And, let Y equal the amount of Cap-ships in the universe.
Through mining/botting/trading, it would take let's say... about 50 man hours to get the necessary supplies.
Through pirating though, you could collect, say 1/4th the necessary scrap metal, so that for every 4 capital ships you destory, you pretty much get a free one. This would take say... 50 man hours divided by the number of Cap-ships in the universe, because the more abundant they are, the easier it is for pirates to collect on them.
In this case, as Y increases, X decreases, giving a more or less stable amount of Cap-ships in the universe. The devs could easily change the amount of ore and scrap, and credits, thus the number of hours it takes for a ship to be produced, and accurately change the projected number of ships in the universe to whatever they wish. I think the production of all ships should be based on something like this when the economy becomes dynamic.
The reason why this system works, is because it closely models a food chain within a closed ecosystem. The asteroids and hive bots are autotrophs, an infinately regrowing source of nutrients. The miners, traders, and botters, are all herbivores, collecting nutrients, and growing into large capital ships. Pirates are the carnivores, only collecting nutrients from other developed ships, through the least efficient, but quickest form of attacking one another. In this closed system of competition, there will naturally yield a balance of producers, and consumers.
i totally approve of the project for teamwork for construction and such , and even 50 man hour seems Little.
They should be linked to player stations as well , and shouldnt be linked in any way to Npcing because these monsters would probably clean swipe for hours whitout even endangering its loss.
so lets say space station wich is owned by a guild of player stand there in space , having a capital ship docked by it not in it , would require constant space monitoring from enemies , where thats where half the fun would come in , mega fight and player guilds would start to sprout , the board would get flamed everyone would log in for adrenaline and people would get pissed at each other , wich in my view is 100% pure Mmmorpg PvP .
simple to make a system work is create peole cooperation to build something huge , give them candy to play with and let them fight each other to show up who's best at it and u got a pvp system wich can bring in for for over a year.
Ive played almost all MMorpg and was a heavy Ultima online pvp player since it went public , also had an eve char since 2003 all i can say his this game has mega potential.
how fun would it be to go in with a capital ship where u can dock in a saturday night with your gang of 25 player go attack some other guild , now we are talking massive space warfare and mega fun for hours :)
BTW do the same system as in eve , Bigger the gun hardest it is to hit a small target but bigger the dmg output , that way capital ship would only fight space station and try its hand on the other 30 40 player guild trying to take it down in their little ship but killing one every 5 10 minutes or so.
sorry if it all sounds weird english aint my first language and im on a hype now :)
They should be linked to player stations as well , and shouldnt be linked in any way to Npcing because these monsters would probably clean swipe for hours whitout even endangering its loss.
so lets say space station wich is owned by a guild of player stand there in space , having a capital ship docked by it not in it , would require constant space monitoring from enemies , where thats where half the fun would come in , mega fight and player guilds would start to sprout , the board would get flamed everyone would log in for adrenaline and people would get pissed at each other , wich in my view is 100% pure Mmmorpg PvP .
simple to make a system work is create peole cooperation to build something huge , give them candy to play with and let them fight each other to show up who's best at it and u got a pvp system wich can bring in for for over a year.
Ive played almost all MMorpg and was a heavy Ultima online pvp player since it went public , also had an eve char since 2003 all i can say his this game has mega potential.
how fun would it be to go in with a capital ship where u can dock in a saturday night with your gang of 25 player go attack some other guild , now we are talking massive space warfare and mega fun for hours :)
BTW do the same system as in eve , Bigger the gun hardest it is to hit a small target but bigger the dmg output , that way capital ship would only fight space station and try its hand on the other 30 40 player guild trying to take it down in their little ship but killing one every 5 10 minutes or so.
sorry if it all sounds weird english aint my first language and im on a hype now :)
This bring up another potential money-making enterprise. What if we had people who gathered the necessary materials, built the capital ships, and then could *sell* them to other players?
For an additional charge, we'll even include a dock full of TPG raptors, stocked and ready for combat. =)
Give me Valks and SCPs! Nae raptors!!
50 man hours is too much
Yes, 50 man-hours IS too much.
also...
An engineer, with several different batteries to cycle back and forth, always diverting energy to the different parts of the ship (Fore weapons, aft weapons, engines, turbo, auxillary, what have you...) so that whatever was needed at the moment had the appropriate energy. And don't forget those pesky docked fighters that are always wanting refuelling and repairs.
Things like this have been discussed multiple times. Unless you make this fun, no-one's going to be an engineer. Unless you introduce mini-games, skill-based ones, people will stay in th engineering for 5 minutes, then go to make coffee, look what the cat's doing to the mice, etc. And the problem is that such mini-games take time to implement. Time the devs currently don't have.
But it would be fun.
Onwards we go. Captain and helmsman should probably be one and the same person, unless there's a full 'tactics and strategy' suite that comes with every cap ship. Then, the captain needs a clear head for laying out battle plans and exploitation schedules, necessitating a pilot.
Turrets/fighter cover is an undisputed necessity.
Communications falls into the same slot as helmsman, if the captain's too busy, a comm exec. is required.
That being said, there's bound to be shades of grey. A small, corvette-class ship isn't going to have as specialized a crew patrolling the outskirts of Serco space, bordering on grey. However, a HAC heading for Deneb will want full ranks, with manpower to spare.
also...
An engineer, with several different batteries to cycle back and forth, always diverting energy to the different parts of the ship (Fore weapons, aft weapons, engines, turbo, auxillary, what have you...) so that whatever was needed at the moment had the appropriate energy. And don't forget those pesky docked fighters that are always wanting refuelling and repairs.
Things like this have been discussed multiple times. Unless you make this fun, no-one's going to be an engineer. Unless you introduce mini-games, skill-based ones, people will stay in th engineering for 5 minutes, then go to make coffee, look what the cat's doing to the mice, etc. And the problem is that such mini-games take time to implement. Time the devs currently don't have.
But it would be fun.
Onwards we go. Captain and helmsman should probably be one and the same person, unless there's a full 'tactics and strategy' suite that comes with every cap ship. Then, the captain needs a clear head for laying out battle plans and exploitation schedules, necessitating a pilot.
Turrets/fighter cover is an undisputed necessity.
Communications falls into the same slot as helmsman, if the captain's too busy, a comm exec. is required.
That being said, there's bound to be shades of grey. A small, corvette-class ship isn't going to have as specialized a crew patrolling the outskirts of Serco space, bordering on grey. However, a HAC heading for Deneb will want full ranks, with manpower to spare.
i dont think 50 man hour is alot , ive played myself 9 hours yesterday and was doing boring corvus missions to get my standing up , imagine 6-8 guildies we could build a capitol ship in under a day wich wouldnt be too bad , 10-15 player man guild would be able to pop one in their stack every 3-4 hours .
Think about it it forces people to work 2gheter wich creates a community wich creates a us vs them wich makes it fun :)
Think about it it forces people to work 2gheter wich creates a community wich creates a us vs them wich makes it fun :)
Funny, I was thinking about how to work cap ship crews and encourage cooperation just the other day. I like the idea you have, Mynt, you're definately on the right track.
First, I'll get my impractical but cool idea out of the way. I imagine the interface for the captain of a cap ship would be like playing Homeworld. That's why this is impractical, because a whole huge second game engine would have to be made and integrated into the game. The captain would be able to switch from ship view, and a view of the entire battle and give orders, kind of like in Ender's Game (or Homeworld). Orders given to robots in the fleet would be obeyed automatically, and orders to player-piloted fighters and other cap ships (if your guild owns more than one and you command the flagship) appear on the receiving player's HUD as written orders plus a marker pointing to where/what the orders refer to. Voice chat would be super cool for this, too.
Or, for now a more practical way to do this is to have the captain's HUD be able to target but not fire (unless there's no main gunner), and the captain can target someone and press a button to send an order to anyone in the fleet (or in the cap ship) to target them. For the receiving player, it would be the same as the above suggestion. Not as cool or streamlined as a Homeworld interface, but it'll do. It'll also give the captain a full-time job. If necessary, he can also take control of the main weapons, and fire the big cap ship weapons (but not anti-fighter turrets).
Engineer: This is what I was thinking about before. The battery idea is nice, but more as an occaisional emergency task than a full-time job. That would get old fast. I figured the engineer would command repair crews. Small one and two man ships don't have room for repair crews, and must repair when docked, but capital ships can afford to have at least a few people on board to handle repairs, plus a few robots to go outside and fix things too dangerous for a person to do. The actual people doing the grunt work should be NPC (because it wouldn't be fun for long, and it would require lots and lots of pointless mini-games), and they receive orders from the chief engineer.
The engineer's interface would show a layout of the ship, and you can click on individual components to get more detail. Yes, this requires a lot of new UI, but more feasible than my captain UI idea. NPC repairmen would automatically go work on certain things, but tend toward easy repairs rather than critical, unless they receive an order. Individual parts can be repaired (at different rates depending on what it is) or replaced (again, depending on the part) if a new one is in the cargo hold. Some stuff can't be repaired except at a station, like armor. Big weapons and stuff can't be replaced in-flight, either. If repairmen are in a section of the ship that gets a severe hit, there's a chance you lose some of them, or if they're in a part that gets destroyed, whoever's there dies.
The other task a chief engineer would have is like Mynt's battery suggestion. If there are ever shields implemented, they can redistribute power among different shield zones, to protect more vulnerable or damaged parts of the ship. Or, if a piece of equipment with a dedicated battery is damaged, destroyed, or unnecessary at the moment, the engineer can disconnect the battery (assuming it is not also broken) and connect it to something that needs it more, to give that thing more capacity. Or, if there are multiple reactors (I still think we need modifiable reactor/battery combos), if necessary the engineer can redistribute the load on the reactors.
Communications guy: If there's too much to do, the captain can hire a comm guy to handle ship to whatever communications. That way you won't see a whole cap ship get caught typing.
Helmsman/Gunner: This is the guy who gets pretty much the same experience as the normal player flying any ship. The difference is that he takes orders, and if he's not doing his job the captain takes his controls. Obviously, you fly the ship where it needs to go, docking and stuff, and you fire the big weapons. If there are a lot of weapons and enough people who want jobs, maybe a seperate gunner. The weapons under the control of this position are the big ones designed to fight other cap ships and stations, not the little anti-fighter turrets or any automatic point defense weapons.
And then of course there are people who man turrets and fly fighters, and the crews of the support ships.
Any of these positions could be taken over by the captain if necessary, or by someone else if the captain orders it. It should be possible for a single player to man a capital ship, but not effective.
Methods for becoming captain should depend on the guild who owns the ship, or if you bought the ship all by yourself, then obviously you're already captain. I envision most guilds using a system of rank, where if you prove yourself in a support position (engineer, gunner, helmsman, comms officer, etc.) and you show leadership/tactical ability, then when a new capital ship is added to the fleet, you would be considered for a command position. If there are enough other positions, not everyone would want to be a captain. And if a lot of people would rather be captain, this would make them man the other positions for a time before earning the priveledge. Or, go get your own cap ship.
For now, I'm only going to talk about the crew. There's no point assigning numbers to time/materials for building the ships, anyway, at this point.
First, I'll get my impractical but cool idea out of the way. I imagine the interface for the captain of a cap ship would be like playing Homeworld. That's why this is impractical, because a whole huge second game engine would have to be made and integrated into the game. The captain would be able to switch from ship view, and a view of the entire battle and give orders, kind of like in Ender's Game (or Homeworld). Orders given to robots in the fleet would be obeyed automatically, and orders to player-piloted fighters and other cap ships (if your guild owns more than one and you command the flagship) appear on the receiving player's HUD as written orders plus a marker pointing to where/what the orders refer to. Voice chat would be super cool for this, too.
Or, for now a more practical way to do this is to have the captain's HUD be able to target but not fire (unless there's no main gunner), and the captain can target someone and press a button to send an order to anyone in the fleet (or in the cap ship) to target them. For the receiving player, it would be the same as the above suggestion. Not as cool or streamlined as a Homeworld interface, but it'll do. It'll also give the captain a full-time job. If necessary, he can also take control of the main weapons, and fire the big cap ship weapons (but not anti-fighter turrets).
Engineer: This is what I was thinking about before. The battery idea is nice, but more as an occaisional emergency task than a full-time job. That would get old fast. I figured the engineer would command repair crews. Small one and two man ships don't have room for repair crews, and must repair when docked, but capital ships can afford to have at least a few people on board to handle repairs, plus a few robots to go outside and fix things too dangerous for a person to do. The actual people doing the grunt work should be NPC (because it wouldn't be fun for long, and it would require lots and lots of pointless mini-games), and they receive orders from the chief engineer.
The engineer's interface would show a layout of the ship, and you can click on individual components to get more detail. Yes, this requires a lot of new UI, but more feasible than my captain UI idea. NPC repairmen would automatically go work on certain things, but tend toward easy repairs rather than critical, unless they receive an order. Individual parts can be repaired (at different rates depending on what it is) or replaced (again, depending on the part) if a new one is in the cargo hold. Some stuff can't be repaired except at a station, like armor. Big weapons and stuff can't be replaced in-flight, either. If repairmen are in a section of the ship that gets a severe hit, there's a chance you lose some of them, or if they're in a part that gets destroyed, whoever's there dies.
The other task a chief engineer would have is like Mynt's battery suggestion. If there are ever shields implemented, they can redistribute power among different shield zones, to protect more vulnerable or damaged parts of the ship. Or, if a piece of equipment with a dedicated battery is damaged, destroyed, or unnecessary at the moment, the engineer can disconnect the battery (assuming it is not also broken) and connect it to something that needs it more, to give that thing more capacity. Or, if there are multiple reactors (I still think we need modifiable reactor/battery combos), if necessary the engineer can redistribute the load on the reactors.
Communications guy: If there's too much to do, the captain can hire a comm guy to handle ship to whatever communications. That way you won't see a whole cap ship get caught typing.
Helmsman/Gunner: This is the guy who gets pretty much the same experience as the normal player flying any ship. The difference is that he takes orders, and if he's not doing his job the captain takes his controls. Obviously, you fly the ship where it needs to go, docking and stuff, and you fire the big weapons. If there are a lot of weapons and enough people who want jobs, maybe a seperate gunner. The weapons under the control of this position are the big ones designed to fight other cap ships and stations, not the little anti-fighter turrets or any automatic point defense weapons.
And then of course there are people who man turrets and fly fighters, and the crews of the support ships.
Any of these positions could be taken over by the captain if necessary, or by someone else if the captain orders it. It should be possible for a single player to man a capital ship, but not effective.
Methods for becoming captain should depend on the guild who owns the ship, or if you bought the ship all by yourself, then obviously you're already captain. I envision most guilds using a system of rank, where if you prove yourself in a support position (engineer, gunner, helmsman, comms officer, etc.) and you show leadership/tactical ability, then when a new capital ship is added to the fleet, you would be considered for a command position. If there are enough other positions, not everyone would want to be a captain. And if a lot of people would rather be captain, this would make them man the other positions for a time before earning the priveledge. Or, go get your own cap ship.
For now, I'm only going to talk about the crew. There's no point assigning numbers to time/materials for building the ships, anyway, at this point.
Nice Chaos. I like your ideas. I think that we need some changes made to the current NPC cap ships to fit this mold so they are ready to be taken on by players.
I think we should add a weapon type or 2 to the cap ships. Have 3 or 4 distinct weapon types that are at different levels of effectiveness and desirability. One weapon officer would get you the crudiest weapon. 2 weapon officers would get you the crudiest and second crudiest. Only with all 4 weapons officers could you use the coolest and most powerful weapon system. I wrote about a similar system in the following thread:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14052#177604
Also, for your engineer idea we need to have cap ships that can have systems disabled. For instance, their engines can be targeted and damaged so they have reduced power or become completely disabled. I really like the idea of being able to divert power to different systems (borrow from weapons for shileds, vice versa, etc...).
I also love the idea of being able to divert shield or armor power to certain sections. This would also require some changes.
Basically I just think we need some overall design changes to make the current cap ships player controlable in any way that is smart and fun.
I think we should add a weapon type or 2 to the cap ships. Have 3 or 4 distinct weapon types that are at different levels of effectiveness and desirability. One weapon officer would get you the crudiest weapon. 2 weapon officers would get you the crudiest and second crudiest. Only with all 4 weapons officers could you use the coolest and most powerful weapon system. I wrote about a similar system in the following thread:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14052#177604
Also, for your engineer idea we need to have cap ships that can have systems disabled. For instance, their engines can be targeted and damaged so they have reduced power or become completely disabled. I really like the idea of being able to divert power to different systems (borrow from weapons for shileds, vice versa, etc...).
I also love the idea of being able to divert shield or armor power to certain sections. This would also require some changes.
Basically I just think we need some overall design changes to make the current cap ships player controlable in any way that is smart and fun.
There are some serious problems/issues that have been rather overlooked here:
SuperMegaMynt -- That is an awfully large list of people to man a single vessel, even a capital ship. Needing a group of people that can work together requires them to all trust each other and be online at the same time. This is difficult because most people have neither the desire nor the time to develop online relationships to that level of trust (i.e. being willing to risk many hours of time spent ingame to acquire a capship to someone that is still mostly a complete stranger).
-- Also, there is a huge disparity in the size and value of even the current set of capital ships; it is nearly pointless to try and peg costs-per-ship to them now.
Dirtstyl3 - "player guilds would start to sprout , the board would get flamed everyone would log in for adrenaline and people would get pissed at each other" -- That is TERRIBLE community building and a horrible game. People should not be encouraged to be upset at each other and message board flame wars are strictly destructive to their respective communities. Also, most people do not play a game for 9 hours in a day; most people cannot do that, and it certainly should not be encouraged. Us vs. Them situations are also generally bad for a community as that mentality encourages bad sportsmanship and griefing, and can cause a significant portion of the playerbase to quit if they are on the side that lost. Think about it: you are a Serco and 2 weeks after all stations are made destructible the IDF and SKV, after hiring many UIT mercenaries, work their tails off to crush every Serco station through Sol II because they outnumber the Serco 3:1 -- would you keep playing until the last Serco station was left as a joke for the Hive to finish off, create a new character and start ALL OVER again, or simply quit out of frustration? My bet is that 9 out of 10 people would simply quit.
Dark Knight -- Go look up crafting: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406
Professor Chaos -- If you look around a bit more than a year back, you can find somewhere references to a Homeworld-esque captain's view. Also, you would really only need a bit better control of the F9 floating camera view, perhaps the ability to save 3 external camera positions + some drag-select functionality for order distribution?
FatStrat85 -- No, the ship should simply be the ship, not change what can or cannot be used based on the number of characters in it...
SuperMegaMynt -- That is an awfully large list of people to man a single vessel, even a capital ship. Needing a group of people that can work together requires them to all trust each other and be online at the same time. This is difficult because most people have neither the desire nor the time to develop online relationships to that level of trust (i.e. being willing to risk many hours of time spent ingame to acquire a capship to someone that is still mostly a complete stranger).
-- Also, there is a huge disparity in the size and value of even the current set of capital ships; it is nearly pointless to try and peg costs-per-ship to them now.
Dirtstyl3 - "player guilds would start to sprout , the board would get flamed everyone would log in for adrenaline and people would get pissed at each other" -- That is TERRIBLE community building and a horrible game. People should not be encouraged to be upset at each other and message board flame wars are strictly destructive to their respective communities. Also, most people do not play a game for 9 hours in a day; most people cannot do that, and it certainly should not be encouraged. Us vs. Them situations are also generally bad for a community as that mentality encourages bad sportsmanship and griefing, and can cause a significant portion of the playerbase to quit if they are on the side that lost. Think about it: you are a Serco and 2 weeks after all stations are made destructible the IDF and SKV, after hiring many UIT mercenaries, work their tails off to crush every Serco station through Sol II because they outnumber the Serco 3:1 -- would you keep playing until the last Serco station was left as a joke for the Hive to finish off, create a new character and start ALL OVER again, or simply quit out of frustration? My bet is that 9 out of 10 people would simply quit.
Dark Knight -- Go look up crafting: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406
Professor Chaos -- If you look around a bit more than a year back, you can find somewhere references to a Homeworld-esque captain's view. Also, you would really only need a bit better control of the F9 floating camera view, perhaps the ability to save 3 external camera positions + some drag-select functionality for order distribution?
FatStrat85 -- No, the ship should simply be the ship, not change what can or cannot be used based on the number of characters in it...
LostCommander -- Why?
I think that requiring us to have more than one player in a Cap ship in order use its coolest features is a great and simple way to promote player cooperation.
I think that requiring us to have more than one player in a Cap ship in order use its coolest features is a great and simple way to promote player cooperation.
Yes! LC to the rescue... I completely agree with your post.
As for repairs...
Currently, only hull damage is registered. So, hull repair would be the only thing necessary. This would in itself generate the mini-game I thought about.
Make the repair ship be a standard complement on any bigger cap ship (say, Trident size). It's like a collector, only with no weapons, slightly better engines and infiniboost.
It has a "repair beam" that works like a mining beam but repairs the ship. Larger vessels can have more than one, which would speed up the process.
This would require a damage model (I'm guessing damage can be subtracted or added) that actually considers localized damage, i.e. damage to the bow is damage to the bow, and not all over the ship.
As for repairs...
Currently, only hull damage is registered. So, hull repair would be the only thing necessary. This would in itself generate the mini-game I thought about.
Make the repair ship be a standard complement on any bigger cap ship (say, Trident size). It's like a collector, only with no weapons, slightly better engines and infiniboost.
It has a "repair beam" that works like a mining beam but repairs the ship. Larger vessels can have more than one, which would speed up the process.
This would require a damage model (I'm guessing damage can be subtracted or added) that actually considers localized damage, i.e. damage to the bow is damage to the bow, and not all over the ship.
I'll probably read the whole thread later, but I'm rather upset you said all capships threads had stupid titles.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/13403#168905
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14182#179145
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14721#185125
'course I'm only linking my threads because I'm a total proxitute, but meh. I thought they were good threads.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/13403#168905
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14182#179145
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14721#185125
'course I'm only linking my threads because I'm a total proxitute, but meh. I thought they were good threads.
Scuba: There are stupid titles as in ridiculous, and stupid titles as in boring. Just kidding. Those are good threads.
FatStrat85: LostCommander is right. A ship has what it has, regardless of who is in it. The thing that would make cooperation good is that it would be very hard for one person to multitask everything necessary to run a cap ship. Assuming no trouble happens and you're just going from A to B, one man can do it easy. Just fly the thing like normal. A cap ship will have superior technology with a lot of automation anyway. If you're attacked, though, you have to fly the ship, fire an array of cap weapons, man the turrets, organize repairs and call for help at the same time. Better to divide up the tasks. Obviously a lot of changes would need to be made, I was assuming those were implied. I agree we need many more weapon types.
LostCommander: I agree it would be tough to get a large crew together. I don't think, especially if you're in a guild, it would be too hard once we have more players to get a half dozen together for a specific mission, though. And if you can't, you make do with who you have. Only one should be required to fly the thing. The actual "crew" is assumed to be there, as NPCs, like extras in Star Trek. Players would only make up the "Bridge Crew." The max a full compliment of player officers should be is: Captain, Comms Officer, Helmsman, Gunner, Engineer. That's five. Then, if you can persuade (pay) people to man turrets, that's cool too. Maybe your guild requires turret duty before officer duty.
Also, cap ships and player stations will create large demand for mercenaries. A guild or two would show up offering to escort capital ships. If there are enough players in the game, then there should always be several mercenaries online at any given time in case you need to hire one at the last moment. Of course, then you run into real life mercenary problems, like paying them, and the fact that they're more loyal to saving their own skin than taking an unnecessary risk to complete your mission. That's just another bit of realism to add to an RPG, though.
toshiro: Yeah, location damage would definately have to be implemented. Armor is a tough thing to repair, though, especially since it's such a massive thing on a cap ship. I say permanent armor repairs have to be done at a station. Maybe a small hull breach could be plugged, though, either with force fields or scrap metal. I was thinking more of, "sensor array is down, Repairman Bob, go fix it." "Aye, sir, it will be fixed in two minutes." Or aft turret port, or whatever, but smaller parts that are practical to keep spares of in the cargo hold could even be replaced, as long as that part of the ship still exists.... That repair beam thing is interesting, but I'd rather see a robot pick up a part from a cargo hold and take it outside and place it where it goes. Or, you could pilot a ship yourself to do it.
FatStrat85: LostCommander is right. A ship has what it has, regardless of who is in it. The thing that would make cooperation good is that it would be very hard for one person to multitask everything necessary to run a cap ship. Assuming no trouble happens and you're just going from A to B, one man can do it easy. Just fly the thing like normal. A cap ship will have superior technology with a lot of automation anyway. If you're attacked, though, you have to fly the ship, fire an array of cap weapons, man the turrets, organize repairs and call for help at the same time. Better to divide up the tasks. Obviously a lot of changes would need to be made, I was assuming those were implied. I agree we need many more weapon types.
LostCommander: I agree it would be tough to get a large crew together. I don't think, especially if you're in a guild, it would be too hard once we have more players to get a half dozen together for a specific mission, though. And if you can't, you make do with who you have. Only one should be required to fly the thing. The actual "crew" is assumed to be there, as NPCs, like extras in Star Trek. Players would only make up the "Bridge Crew." The max a full compliment of player officers should be is: Captain, Comms Officer, Helmsman, Gunner, Engineer. That's five. Then, if you can persuade (pay) people to man turrets, that's cool too. Maybe your guild requires turret duty before officer duty.
Also, cap ships and player stations will create large demand for mercenaries. A guild or two would show up offering to escort capital ships. If there are enough players in the game, then there should always be several mercenaries online at any given time in case you need to hire one at the last moment. Of course, then you run into real life mercenary problems, like paying them, and the fact that they're more loyal to saving their own skin than taking an unnecessary risk to complete your mission. That's just another bit of realism to add to an RPG, though.
toshiro: Yeah, location damage would definately have to be implemented. Armor is a tough thing to repair, though, especially since it's such a massive thing on a cap ship. I say permanent armor repairs have to be done at a station. Maybe a small hull breach could be plugged, though, either with force fields or scrap metal. I was thinking more of, "sensor array is down, Repairman Bob, go fix it." "Aye, sir, it will be fixed in two minutes." Or aft turret port, or whatever, but smaller parts that are practical to keep spares of in the cargo hold could even be replaced, as long as that part of the ship still exists.... That repair beam thing is interesting, but I'd rather see a robot pick up a part from a cargo hold and take it outside and place it where it goes. Or, you could pilot a ship yourself to do it.
It'd be like, really sweet if I could get a mercenary group, and fly around protecting capital ships from pesky pirate raids.
First of all... heck yeah for emergency repair crew; The horizon is awash with flames and shrapnel, vultures swooping in at all angles just long enough to fire their volley of rockets, and spin just avoiding our Constellation's turrets. The captain points to you and says "Bob, I want you to go out there on this EC-89, and fix the aft shield node."
*GULP!*
Anywho... If we can regularly get 5 or more people from each nation together every sunday for a Nation War, would it truly be so hard to get those same 5 from each nation, and have a 3 way capital ship battle? As often as not, there's a team of that many pirates holding the wormhole to Latos/Sedina. You won't need to gather players to run your ship. Most likely they'll flock to the occasion.
... And yes, that 50 man hours estimation was very roughly done. I could have said 10, 50, 100, or 500... but the numbers themselves aren't important. The devs will have the best idea as to how long it should take for the best Capital Ship around. And besides, I imagine that most people would want to try the Capital Ship experience through their guild, meaning they'd each only have to contribute a fraction of the resources. I imagine low status guildies working their way up from mining ferric ore, to finally coming aboard and manning a turret, then to the tedious duty of engineering, and eventually their own lofty captains chair. (Probably on a smaller Trident class ship, but it's a start.) To quote WoW, "We're not telling you how to play the game - one of the fascinating practices of this genre is the ingenuity exercised by the players every day!"
And to those who like to go solo, (Dr. Lecter, *cough*) I say go for it! Those people usually have the insanee reflexes it might take to manage an entire Constellation on their own anyways. After all, a captain of his own ship ought to be able to take over whatever command station he wants at any time. I just know that if I were to find myself in that chair, I'd pull out a nice book, and let my underlings do all the work for me. I can't reiterate enough that the key to making these games fun, is to give the players options without making them necessary to stay competitive.
If you wanna' be the sort of Captain who takes the helm, it's all yours! If you don't want to worry about important command decisions, strap yourself into your fighter, and wait for your orders. Ship owners will be glad to have ya'. But I regress...
My ideal interface is one similar to the station menu. In addition, it would have different viewports to look from, such as the different turrets, the selecter fighers in the dockingbay, anything else that could be added, such as repairing and shields are concerned, and the helm, although I suppose only one person ought to have control of navigation at a time. I'm trying to imply that yes, I should be able to fly aboard Dr. Lecter's Connie, refuel and repair, buy some Neutron Blaster Mk III's that he has in stock, and be on my merry way.
It's essential that the Captain has control over everything in as realistic regards as possible. We need to be able to stock the thing with spare fighters that anyone of the crew can hop into if necessary. We need the control as cap'ns to override the current helmsman, and take over ourselves. We need to grant permission, and deny it, to control how many jellybeans the brig gives it's prisoners on monday! Because it's unecessary and impractical to have standard roles aboard every Cap-ship in the universe. Why can't I be an engineer/gunner/inventory stock manager all from the same terminal?
In other words, I foresee an interface like the station menus, where everything that can be done is featured. And the captain has the option of showing, or hiding whichever features he wants, to whomever he wants. I don't want to find myself being the last person on board and stuck escaping in the only left Centaurion Mk II left aboard as my Cap-ship's on selfdestruct, because the interface doesn't have a way for me to fly a ship somebody else purchased. The only restrictions that the UI needs to include, are the ones based on reality. Captains 'n' crews, even 3-5 man crews are an intregal part of being human. Walk down the street, visit any school, and most likely you'll see people in such groups, with obvious leaders, and obvious support. Give the players the realistic tools, and we'll make the rest happen like magic.
*GULP!*
Anywho... If we can regularly get 5 or more people from each nation together every sunday for a Nation War, would it truly be so hard to get those same 5 from each nation, and have a 3 way capital ship battle? As often as not, there's a team of that many pirates holding the wormhole to Latos/Sedina. You won't need to gather players to run your ship. Most likely they'll flock to the occasion.
... And yes, that 50 man hours estimation was very roughly done. I could have said 10, 50, 100, or 500... but the numbers themselves aren't important. The devs will have the best idea as to how long it should take for the best Capital Ship around. And besides, I imagine that most people would want to try the Capital Ship experience through their guild, meaning they'd each only have to contribute a fraction of the resources. I imagine low status guildies working their way up from mining ferric ore, to finally coming aboard and manning a turret, then to the tedious duty of engineering, and eventually their own lofty captains chair. (Probably on a smaller Trident class ship, but it's a start.) To quote WoW, "We're not telling you how to play the game - one of the fascinating practices of this genre is the ingenuity exercised by the players every day!"
And to those who like to go solo, (Dr. Lecter, *cough*) I say go for it! Those people usually have the insanee reflexes it might take to manage an entire Constellation on their own anyways. After all, a captain of his own ship ought to be able to take over whatever command station he wants at any time. I just know that if I were to find myself in that chair, I'd pull out a nice book, and let my underlings do all the work for me. I can't reiterate enough that the key to making these games fun, is to give the players options without making them necessary to stay competitive.
If you wanna' be the sort of Captain who takes the helm, it's all yours! If you don't want to worry about important command decisions, strap yourself into your fighter, and wait for your orders. Ship owners will be glad to have ya'. But I regress...
My ideal interface is one similar to the station menu. In addition, it would have different viewports to look from, such as the different turrets, the selecter fighers in the dockingbay, anything else that could be added, such as repairing and shields are concerned, and the helm, although I suppose only one person ought to have control of navigation at a time. I'm trying to imply that yes, I should be able to fly aboard Dr. Lecter's Connie, refuel and repair, buy some Neutron Blaster Mk III's that he has in stock, and be on my merry way.
It's essential that the Captain has control over everything in as realistic regards as possible. We need to be able to stock the thing with spare fighters that anyone of the crew can hop into if necessary. We need the control as cap'ns to override the current helmsman, and take over ourselves. We need to grant permission, and deny it, to control how many jellybeans the brig gives it's prisoners on monday! Because it's unecessary and impractical to have standard roles aboard every Cap-ship in the universe. Why can't I be an engineer/gunner/inventory stock manager all from the same terminal?
In other words, I foresee an interface like the station menus, where everything that can be done is featured. And the captain has the option of showing, or hiding whichever features he wants, to whomever he wants. I don't want to find myself being the last person on board and stuck escaping in the only left Centaurion Mk II left aboard as my Cap-ship's on selfdestruct, because the interface doesn't have a way for me to fly a ship somebody else purchased. The only restrictions that the UI needs to include, are the ones based on reality. Captains 'n' crews, even 3-5 man crews are an intregal part of being human. Walk down the street, visit any school, and most likely you'll see people in such groups, with obvious leaders, and obvious support. Give the players the realistic tools, and we'll make the rest happen like magic.
Oh yeah, as for repairs, it could easily be something like mining, with the same graphics for beams and all. The hull would begin to heat up, so preferably you'd even out your repairs all over the ship. But well coordinated attack groups would obviously want to focus their attack on one designated area.
Cheers, toshiro, Professor Chaos. We are the forum goons. :P @ Lost Commander.
Cheers, toshiro, Professor Chaos. We are the forum goons. :P @ Lost Commander.
Forum goons? There can be only one!
Ok, I'd still rather not have the repairs be done by a myterious "repair beam" that can repair stuff just by beaming at it. I'd rather a ship pick up the needed piece, and put it where it goes. Maybe if it's a hull patch you can use a welding beam, but yes it would cause heat. Somewhere I have a post about heat eventually causing damage.
As for UI, overall, yes, it could be like the station menu. A different tab for each task. And the captain would have a list of each of his crew, and each name would have check boxes. The checkboxes would correspond to different tasks, and if it is checked then that player is authorised for that task. Also, the captain can click and drag the list into the order he wants, to designate chain of command. If for some reason the captain has to leave, #2 in the list is commander until he returns. Only the commander has access to the commander tab. Also, if two people are authorised to be helmsmen, either can do it, but not both at once. Whoever is higher in the chain can take control from the other, but the lower rank must be given control.
As LostCommander pointed out, it wouldn't be that hard after all to at least have a 3D view of the battlefield. As for what is shown, I imagine it being like in Ender's Game where he could only see what his ships could see. If it's in radar range of anyone friendly, it's in radar range of the cap ship, which should have extended radar anyway. Also, you can click on anyone in the fleet and see what they see from their cockpit. You can also click on a target in the radar, and click on a name in the fleet, and that person will see that target lit up in his HUD. The captain can then message that person with orders pertaining to that target.
And like I said, the Engineer UI would be a schematic of the ship that can zoom in on specific parts, and keeps track of NPC repairmen to order them around.
Ok, I'd still rather not have the repairs be done by a myterious "repair beam" that can repair stuff just by beaming at it. I'd rather a ship pick up the needed piece, and put it where it goes. Maybe if it's a hull patch you can use a welding beam, but yes it would cause heat. Somewhere I have a post about heat eventually causing damage.
As for UI, overall, yes, it could be like the station menu. A different tab for each task. And the captain would have a list of each of his crew, and each name would have check boxes. The checkboxes would correspond to different tasks, and if it is checked then that player is authorised for that task. Also, the captain can click and drag the list into the order he wants, to designate chain of command. If for some reason the captain has to leave, #2 in the list is commander until he returns. Only the commander has access to the commander tab. Also, if two people are authorised to be helmsmen, either can do it, but not both at once. Whoever is higher in the chain can take control from the other, but the lower rank must be given control.
As LostCommander pointed out, it wouldn't be that hard after all to at least have a 3D view of the battlefield. As for what is shown, I imagine it being like in Ender's Game where he could only see what his ships could see. If it's in radar range of anyone friendly, it's in radar range of the cap ship, which should have extended radar anyway. Also, you can click on anyone in the fleet and see what they see from their cockpit. You can also click on a target in the radar, and click on a name in the fleet, and that person will see that target lit up in his HUD. The captain can then message that person with orders pertaining to that target.
And like I said, the Engineer UI would be a schematic of the ship that can zoom in on specific parts, and keeps track of NPC repairmen to order them around.