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I wanted to see if maybe something could be added.
Mining/collecting Gas from Gas Clouds.
Please give your thoughts on this matter
Mining/collecting Gas from Gas Clouds.
Please give your thoughts on this matter
You mean like mining a gas giant? I always thought that would be neat, but I was never sure how to do it.
Big vacuum cleaners?
Homeworld/Homeworld:Cataclysm/Homeworld 2
Incarnate, basically you would want to create "asteroids" (i.e. objects with ore %s and heat) that look like mini-nebulae and have no collision mesh. I think this would be quite cool as a third major 'roid type -- rock, crystal, and gas! They could be colored too, like green, purple, blue, and a couple sectors could have "comets" with several of these clouds trailing behind a large crystal and/or rock asteroid clump (you know, the ones that look like a single large 'roid that got slightly fractured).
*STAMP of Approval*
I think I would prefer to just have one mine-all set of mining beams, but with 3 major types of 'roids we could have 3 lines of mining beams - each beam can only mine from a specific asteroid type.
*STAMP of Approval*
I think I would prefer to just have one mine-all set of mining beams, but with 3 major types of 'roids we could have 3 lines of mining beams - each beam can only mine from a specific asteroid type.
this makes me think of a giant cloud filled with dangerous roids in space
Instead of having an asteroid heat up you could have the concentration of gas deminish around your ship
*Stamp of Approval*
*Stamp of Approval*
Woodstock
Woodstock
Apart from the fact that random gas clouds in space make absolutely NO sense whatsoever, even if this is a game, it'd be fun. Make it superheatable so it can be plasmafied!
Another long post….
First a couple comments on this thread. The problem with having mini-nebulae as a small “roid” is that even small nebulae are HUGE. I love the idea of having a comet. You could collect hydrogen and oxygen from the tail as ice, and it could have implications for sustaining stations and for fuel. The difficulty is that comets move pretty fast, code would have to be written so the comet can move throughout the universe. Maybe have three or four that appear periodically and move in preset paths across space. Also, the animation required to make it look good might be tough. In the future, maybe.
Mining gas giants and nebulae could work in the near future, though, I think. The question would be whether the current engine can support fog graphics. If it can, then put a nebula in a distant system, and when in that system you are surrounded by gas, and the scenery is a foggy red, green or blue, depending on how dense and how hot the gas is. Also, in a system around a gas giant, make the sectors with the planet accessible. This ties into the recent “Plants” post, where you can fly into the atmosphere, which is again foggy and hydrogen and helium gas are available. If possible, gravity could at some point be introduced to the game to make gas giant mining interesting.
That’s what works (maybe) for the short term. Now my long-winded essay about the implications for the long term:
The possibility of gas mining ties into an idea I’ve had about fuel that ties into a lot of other things, that change a lot of aspects of the game. Most of space is filled with 90% hydrogen and 10% helium, which is denser and hotter around gas giants and in nebulas. The hydrogen would be functional in the dynamic economy as fuel for fusion reactors in stations and ships. The helium would be an efficient coolant for these reactors, needed in far smaller amounts. My idea I’ve had brewing is for drones to make circuits in deep space collecting these gasses and supplying stations, which would then refine them to deuterium or tritium fuel. A really bored player could also accept a mission like that. Ships could refuel at stations with enough fuel reserve. If a station runs out of hydrogen, the station shuts down and no one can dock or refuel there until there is a hydrogen reserve again. This means that you could sabotage a station by sniping the collector drones/players. The price a station will pay for hydrogen would of course depend on supply and demand, so a full station will pay pennies while an empty station would pay big bucks.
Instead of the current battery system, I suggest a dual battery/reactor to power ships. Since batteries don’t create energy, but merely store it, the only difference between batteries should be capacity. The battery’s charge rate would depend on the efficiency of the reactor, which would also determine the rate at which the ship consumes hydrogen fuel. Reactor charges the battery, the ship uses the energy available from the battery.
For mining nebulae, a couple new mining ships should be introduced that are armored in such a way as to withstand the hotter parts of the cloud. Since nebulae are so big, and it would be tricky to implement, I suggest that there be no depletion of gas around a ship. Supply and demand should be controlled by how often hydrogen is delivered to a station and how often ships refuel. I’m not sure how long hydrogen would last in a reactor, but my guess is a long time. I won’t go into different types of nebulae (but I will if anyone asks, I did some quick research), but the temperature of the gas should be apparent by its color. Red is the coolest, green medium, blue the hottest. Different ships could withstand different temperatures before they start taking damage. To keep it fun, I’d say allow any average ship to venture into the red zones at least briefly before overheating, so that everyone can go in the nebula. Specialized ships last longer and in hotter zones.
For mining a gas giant, again, a new ship or two, capable of withstanding the heat, and also of escaping the gravity well (if such a thing is implemented). That would be fun, I might actually mine there just for the challenge of not falling toward the liquid core where my ship would be melted and crushed at the same time. Obviously, collecting gas from a nebula or gas giant would be much quicker than from deep space, but a nebula is far away, and a gas giant has that darn gravity well.
Instead of a mining beam, I suggest a modification of the Bussard ramjet. Since those are miles across, and this is science fiction, I suggest a new technology that is much smaller and efficiently attracts hydrogen using electromagnetic fields. Maybe name it after me? Collector drones would have them built in, as would specialized gas mining ships, and other players can equip one on their ship. The gas would of course be useless until it is refined at a station.
First a couple comments on this thread. The problem with having mini-nebulae as a small “roid” is that even small nebulae are HUGE. I love the idea of having a comet. You could collect hydrogen and oxygen from the tail as ice, and it could have implications for sustaining stations and for fuel. The difficulty is that comets move pretty fast, code would have to be written so the comet can move throughout the universe. Maybe have three or four that appear periodically and move in preset paths across space. Also, the animation required to make it look good might be tough. In the future, maybe.
Mining gas giants and nebulae could work in the near future, though, I think. The question would be whether the current engine can support fog graphics. If it can, then put a nebula in a distant system, and when in that system you are surrounded by gas, and the scenery is a foggy red, green or blue, depending on how dense and how hot the gas is. Also, in a system around a gas giant, make the sectors with the planet accessible. This ties into the recent “Plants” post, where you can fly into the atmosphere, which is again foggy and hydrogen and helium gas are available. If possible, gravity could at some point be introduced to the game to make gas giant mining interesting.
That’s what works (maybe) for the short term. Now my long-winded essay about the implications for the long term:
The possibility of gas mining ties into an idea I’ve had about fuel that ties into a lot of other things, that change a lot of aspects of the game. Most of space is filled with 90% hydrogen and 10% helium, which is denser and hotter around gas giants and in nebulas. The hydrogen would be functional in the dynamic economy as fuel for fusion reactors in stations and ships. The helium would be an efficient coolant for these reactors, needed in far smaller amounts. My idea I’ve had brewing is for drones to make circuits in deep space collecting these gasses and supplying stations, which would then refine them to deuterium or tritium fuel. A really bored player could also accept a mission like that. Ships could refuel at stations with enough fuel reserve. If a station runs out of hydrogen, the station shuts down and no one can dock or refuel there until there is a hydrogen reserve again. This means that you could sabotage a station by sniping the collector drones/players. The price a station will pay for hydrogen would of course depend on supply and demand, so a full station will pay pennies while an empty station would pay big bucks.
Instead of the current battery system, I suggest a dual battery/reactor to power ships. Since batteries don’t create energy, but merely store it, the only difference between batteries should be capacity. The battery’s charge rate would depend on the efficiency of the reactor, which would also determine the rate at which the ship consumes hydrogen fuel. Reactor charges the battery, the ship uses the energy available from the battery.
For mining nebulae, a couple new mining ships should be introduced that are armored in such a way as to withstand the hotter parts of the cloud. Since nebulae are so big, and it would be tricky to implement, I suggest that there be no depletion of gas around a ship. Supply and demand should be controlled by how often hydrogen is delivered to a station and how often ships refuel. I’m not sure how long hydrogen would last in a reactor, but my guess is a long time. I won’t go into different types of nebulae (but I will if anyone asks, I did some quick research), but the temperature of the gas should be apparent by its color. Red is the coolest, green medium, blue the hottest. Different ships could withstand different temperatures before they start taking damage. To keep it fun, I’d say allow any average ship to venture into the red zones at least briefly before overheating, so that everyone can go in the nebula. Specialized ships last longer and in hotter zones.
For mining a gas giant, again, a new ship or two, capable of withstanding the heat, and also of escaping the gravity well (if such a thing is implemented). That would be fun, I might actually mine there just for the challenge of not falling toward the liquid core where my ship would be melted and crushed at the same time. Obviously, collecting gas from a nebula or gas giant would be much quicker than from deep space, but a nebula is far away, and a gas giant has that darn gravity well.
Instead of a mining beam, I suggest a modification of the Bussard ramjet. Since those are miles across, and this is science fiction, I suggest a new technology that is much smaller and efficiently attracts hydrogen using electromagnetic fields. Maybe name it after me? Collector drones would have them built in, as would specialized gas mining ships, and other players can equip one on their ship. The gas would of course be useless until it is refined at a station.
Lots of interesting ideas for the long term there .
Ecka
Ecka
I like the reactor/battery grouping idea, it opens up an entire new level of strategies and tactics. One problem I see with it is how it could be implemented without making the game very demanding in terms of knowledge on a high-detail level (which would make it, in turn, become harder to be a new player).
Professor Chaos, sticking to the thread topic..:
Everything in space moves pretty fast; the way it is dealt with currently is, when you jump into a sector, you are assumed to have matched velocity with the primary objects in said sector. As such, comets are not a problem and do not have to move through a system, and certainly wouldn't move through the whole universe.
Also, this is a game, so we can have mini-nebulae that are tiny! :P Anyway, you could also say that, although even small nebulae are HUGE, the areas inside them that are dense enough to reasonably collect from (see Homeworld series) are fairly small.
Off-Topic: Planet accessiblity is not coming for a LONG time, if ever. Fuel is also off-topic (and been shot down every time it has been brought up again) and you have mostly echoed the whole concept of a dynamic economy, which we already know is coming Soon(tm). The whole battery confusion thing is why the names got changed to "Power Cell"s (think C.A.V. by Reaper Miniatures).
I think it is best to keep unneccessary complications to a minimum. However, I could see making a reactor-battery division (reactor produces energy per second, battery sets maximum storage) since identifying individual component types as directly affecting single stats generally makes things easier/simpler; the player's choice would then be determined by the weight of these components.
Everything in space moves pretty fast; the way it is dealt with currently is, when you jump into a sector, you are assumed to have matched velocity with the primary objects in said sector. As such, comets are not a problem and do not have to move through a system, and certainly wouldn't move through the whole universe.
Also, this is a game, so we can have mini-nebulae that are tiny! :P Anyway, you could also say that, although even small nebulae are HUGE, the areas inside them that are dense enough to reasonably collect from (see Homeworld series) are fairly small.
Off-Topic: Planet accessiblity is not coming for a LONG time, if ever. Fuel is also off-topic (and been shot down every time it has been brought up again) and you have mostly echoed the whole concept of a dynamic economy, which we already know is coming Soon(tm). The whole battery confusion thing is why the names got changed to "Power Cell"s (think C.A.V. by Reaper Miniatures).
I think it is best to keep unneccessary complications to a minimum. However, I could see making a reactor-battery division (reactor produces energy per second, battery sets maximum storage) since identifying individual component types as directly affecting single stats generally makes things easier/simpler; the player's choice would then be determined by the weight of these components.
gas mining? just back your ship up to Tumblemonster when he is on one of his tirades. in no time you will have plenty of hot gas to work with.
Good point, LostCommander, about matching velocity. I hadn't thought of that. I still think the comet should move, though, since real comets are only visible occaisionally since they move relative to Earth. Maybe if they took a week to move through a system, then a few days later they're in the next system?
I still would like a huge nebula, and I did bring up the concept of different gas densities, but I only related it to graphics. You can collect gas from normal space, it would just go much faster in one of those dense pockets in the nebula. Also, I know planet accessibility might never happen, but I think it's feasible to at least enter the atmosphere of a gas giant. Of course you could never land there anyway. It's the gravity aspect that I don't see coming for a long time, but it would be fun.
Toshiro: I don't think anything relating to configuring ships (reactor/battery, weapons/equipment or otherwise) needs to be difficult for a new player, even if it has levels of detail that get very complicated for those who care to be that involved. The simple solution is to have a standard set of stuff for each ship, and an option to buy it pre-equipped. New players can just buy the equipped ship for slightly less than the cost of the ship plus its equipment, experienced players can buy just the ship and customize it themselves.
I don't mean to deviate from the topic, I was merely expanding on what other topics would be affected by a system of gas mining, and I know fuel has been shot down a bunch of times, but I still think it's important, and would add a whole dimension to the game, and gas mining is a perfect chance to implement it.
I still would like a huge nebula, and I did bring up the concept of different gas densities, but I only related it to graphics. You can collect gas from normal space, it would just go much faster in one of those dense pockets in the nebula. Also, I know planet accessibility might never happen, but I think it's feasible to at least enter the atmosphere of a gas giant. Of course you could never land there anyway. It's the gravity aspect that I don't see coming for a long time, but it would be fun.
Toshiro: I don't think anything relating to configuring ships (reactor/battery, weapons/equipment or otherwise) needs to be difficult for a new player, even if it has levels of detail that get very complicated for those who care to be that involved. The simple solution is to have a standard set of stuff for each ship, and an option to buy it pre-equipped. New players can just buy the equipped ship for slightly less than the cost of the ship plus its equipment, experienced players can buy just the ship and customize it themselves.
I don't mean to deviate from the topic, I was merely expanding on what other topics would be affected by a system of gas mining, and I know fuel has been shot down a bunch of times, but I still think it's important, and would add a whole dimension to the game, and gas mining is a perfect chance to implement it.
Toshiro, most of the fun stuff would be slighly out of nation space, think of the middle has dungion level one, and think outward...that way newbies can explore, and when they explore out of their area, they know when to stop. Haven't you played a RPG before? they 'prolly wouldn't be messing with that until later, since it's mostily for pvp.
Also, two words ; tutorial, manual.
Also, two words ; tutorial, manual.
zmzx, let's be reasonable. A good 50% of the new players wants to see as much as possible as soon as possible. Dying lots on the way there isn't going to help VO once it goes public on a large scale, and having all the fun stuff happen outside nation space isn't going to get the people coming in droves.
That being said: The argument that velocities are being matched upon entry in a sector is a difficult one, since the planets still rotate (visibly). If at all, speed is probably matched to the rotational speed of the entire system, but I think Incarnate once said something about an absolute stillness. So the moving comets are a-ok.
As for the setups: Of course, that's probably the only way to do it. I hadn't thought of that, talk about being blind.
And I agree, you're still on topic, what with gas mining and some of its ramifications. In fact, the reactor/battery/ramscoop system is probably the only way how it would ever be possible to implement fuel into the game, so I think it ties well into the gas mining debate.
That being said: The argument that velocities are being matched upon entry in a sector is a difficult one, since the planets still rotate (visibly). If at all, speed is probably matched to the rotational speed of the entire system, but I think Incarnate once said something about an absolute stillness. So the moving comets are a-ok.
As for the setups: Of course, that's probably the only way to do it. I hadn't thought of that, talk about being blind.
And I agree, you're still on topic, what with gas mining and some of its ramifications. In fact, the reactor/battery/ramscoop system is probably the only way how it would ever be possible to implement fuel into the game, so I think it ties well into the gas mining debate.
Some very interesting thoughts, Professor Chaos. I've actually always been a fan of having Fuel in game once we get more players, and I like that "ramscoop" idea a lot.
Nebulae actually already are a part of the game, I can't remember where but a long time ago in a thread far far away it was settled that the density of nebulae are such that you wouldn't be able to actually "see" one if you were in it; it would just appear as a faint discoloration against the background. Those sectors you see in the navmap that look like they are surrounded by nebulae? Well, they are. Go there and check the background.
Your ramscoop idea could be implemented if each sector were given a specific gaseous composition and density. The ramscoop could work just like a mining beam, perhaps even make it proportional to ship velocity (and sector density of course), the only difference is that one would be able to "mine" gas anywhere in the sector. Nebulous sectors would have a higher density than non-nebulous sectors, and each nebula would have a different gaseous composition. Fuel doesn't even need to be a part of the equation as long as there is a demand for gas widgets at stations.
I also wanted to bring up an alternate idea for gas mining that struck me while reading this thread: what if gas widgets could be mined from asteroids as a by-product of regular mining? There has got to be a certain amount of gas released during the laser mining process.
The types of gas found in asteroids could be based on the mineral composition the asteroids. It could even be based on the sequence of ore widgets picked up by the regular mining beams.
Say Joe Miner has a mining beam and a ramscoop equipped, for every third ore widget mined the ramscoop would pick up one gas widget. Each gas widget would then have a "recipe" of three ore widgets, and certain gas widgets could have more than one recipe.
Most combinations would give a unit of Hydrogen gas (or nothing at all), but if Joe Miner happened to mine two xithricite and one heliocene he might get 1 cu of Alphatane. This could lead to some truly rare and valuable gas widgets that would require traveling across systems to find the right combination of ores.
Under the HUD weapons panel the ramscoop could have three slots showing the most recently mined ores, and the ramscoop could be "fired" to clear it if the miner picked up the wrong ore type. This would be a fun little distraction while mining mineral ores.
Nebulae actually already are a part of the game, I can't remember where but a long time ago in a thread far far away it was settled that the density of nebulae are such that you wouldn't be able to actually "see" one if you were in it; it would just appear as a faint discoloration against the background. Those sectors you see in the navmap that look like they are surrounded by nebulae? Well, they are. Go there and check the background.
Your ramscoop idea could be implemented if each sector were given a specific gaseous composition and density. The ramscoop could work just like a mining beam, perhaps even make it proportional to ship velocity (and sector density of course), the only difference is that one would be able to "mine" gas anywhere in the sector. Nebulous sectors would have a higher density than non-nebulous sectors, and each nebula would have a different gaseous composition. Fuel doesn't even need to be a part of the equation as long as there is a demand for gas widgets at stations.
I also wanted to bring up an alternate idea for gas mining that struck me while reading this thread: what if gas widgets could be mined from asteroids as a by-product of regular mining? There has got to be a certain amount of gas released during the laser mining process.
The types of gas found in asteroids could be based on the mineral composition the asteroids. It could even be based on the sequence of ore widgets picked up by the regular mining beams.
Say Joe Miner has a mining beam and a ramscoop equipped, for every third ore widget mined the ramscoop would pick up one gas widget. Each gas widget would then have a "recipe" of three ore widgets, and certain gas widgets could have more than one recipe.
Most combinations would give a unit of Hydrogen gas (or nothing at all), but if Joe Miner happened to mine two xithricite and one heliocene he might get 1 cu of Alphatane. This could lead to some truly rare and valuable gas widgets that would require traveling across systems to find the right combination of ores.
Under the HUD weapons panel the ramscoop could have three slots showing the most recently mined ores, and the ramscoop could be "fired" to clear it if the miner picked up the wrong ore type. This would be a fun little distraction while mining mineral ores.
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, the planets are still, but I didn't know you could see them rotate. That's cool. Realistically, planets would move, too, but it's not a big deal. The comet's movement would have significant impact on supply/demand and gameplay. Stuff you can mine from a comet: Water Ice (hydrogen and oxygen when refined), dry ice (carbon and oxygen when refined), and rocks (various ores).
I knew you could see nebulas in the background (very nice looking), but I didn't know you could fly in them. You're probably right about how faint it would look. I was blinded by the cool image in my head of this being like in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. As long as the color is visible in navigation and realspace to inform the player of how hot it is. Also, if ship temperature is added (for a new damage type or for this), then a temperature gauge would have to be added to the HUD, that shows absolute hull temperature and indicates the danger range for the particular ship. The way you describe the ramscoop working is exactly how I thought, it would always work, just much better in nebulae.
I also like your gas from asteroids idea. I looked it up, C-Group asteroids make up 75% of all asteroids in the universe, are made mostly of carbon, and have some water containing minerals. This brings up an improvement I have in mind to mining, that all mining beams simply gather raw ore from the asteroid, and you take it to a station to have it refined into it's constituent minerals/gases.
I knew you could see nebulas in the background (very nice looking), but I didn't know you could fly in them. You're probably right about how faint it would look. I was blinded by the cool image in my head of this being like in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. As long as the color is visible in navigation and realspace to inform the player of how hot it is. Also, if ship temperature is added (for a new damage type or for this), then a temperature gauge would have to be added to the HUD, that shows absolute hull temperature and indicates the danger range for the particular ship. The way you describe the ramscoop working is exactly how I thought, it would always work, just much better in nebulae.
I also like your gas from asteroids idea. I looked it up, C-Group asteroids make up 75% of all asteroids in the universe, are made mostly of carbon, and have some water containing minerals. This brings up an improvement I have in mind to mining, that all mining beams simply gather raw ore from the asteroid, and you take it to a station to have it refined into it's constituent minerals/gases.