Well, I just hammered firsm's moth into oblivion for no particular reason other than to see how fast it dies... wasn't even really trying - he just died, and fast. Took about 1/4 of my ammo and maybe 2 seconds of continueous fire to pop the thing like a balloon. Even if he had an escort of 3 fighters, there's no way they could have taken me down in that time.

Escorts can't do jack shit for a gargantuan, slow-moving target if the thing doesn't even have the armor to survive 2 seconds of hammering from a lone pilot.

Moths as slow as the current one MUST have at least twice the armor they do, maybe even 3 times - more than they did originally, and that's just to make them useable in grey WITH an escort.

If you're going to make a 2000-armor moth, you need to at least give it the speed and thrust to escape something on it's own (with the use of mines)

Faster moths should have less cargo room (100cu), less armor, and only one L-port, but they should be fast enough to evade pirates half the time.

Slower moths should need an escort to survive pirates, but they also need the armor to give their escorts the time to become useful, or it's an exercise in futility. They also need more cargo room so that people will try to use them in the first place (they're obviously far more vulnerable than the fast moths)

I think we have the makings of a clear Mk I/II system here. The current moth, with whacked speed, should be given back its old armor. Nothing more, to start. I think that may do it.

However, for mining, the new moth is useless. It cannot outrun bots, and armor isn't an issue there. Let's have a flavor of moth with 200 speed, and the current paper thin armor or a little less. Someone can proffer it as the mining variant. Hell, give the damn thing an S port while you're at it.

Ok sweet. I now have experience with the new moths! And armed with this knowledge, and the lessons that I have learned with my month's worth of ignorant posts, I will simply say this:

I caught and destroyed Screwball's unloaded Moth today in a Rev C, with a FC battery, and AAP's. Granted I caught Screw unawares, but I took the hull down in one system, no jumps. And, and interesting note, I could easily turbo-tap, maintaining a faster speed than Screw could full throttle.

You be the judge!

Lec, did you look over my post regarding the mining varient?

I think it should be a given that you'd need to mine in non-hostile sectors with the moth, so any issue with being unable to outrun bots applies to every varient. It's the storms that kill them.

>so any issue with being unable to outrun bots applies to every varient. It's the >storms that kill them.

i don't see why the moth has to be able to survive getting couight in a storm. after all they can be esily avoided. if you choose to take a direct rout you take on the added risk if being destroied by the hive's combat bots.

> i don't see why the moth has to be able to survive getting
> couight in a storm. after all they can be esily avoided.

Escorts. (They're not smart.)

Cunjo...I think you have thought this out further than I have, I think you filled in the specifics of what I was getting at.

Part of the bottom line though is that a moth needs to be able to withstand more than a single volley from a single pirate, escorts or no.

I think 18k HP would work, if you took the speed down ten m/s, it'd be evener then, (this would be the sucking mk I) mkII should have like,17k HP, and 50 m/s more then the MK I

More armor, same speed. Transports are meant to be slow

then for a few levels more give us the Moth heavy with the turret. Sure turrets are easy to avoid but it still makes the enemy move which buys time.

And finally. For the first installment of user creatable missions. Allow Moth players to spawn an escort mission for themselves. have 1 npc player join it and make it open to players too. the player would of course have to purchase the mission post of which that money would be split amongst whoever took the mission. to avoid exploits and whatnot the station should determine the cost based on destination and potential profitablity. No human players take it return half the money.

[[RANT]]
This is sad. We had an uber TRADE-SHIP for 9 months, and then when Inc FINALLY gets around to fixing it he practically beats, rapes, beats and then dices it into minute fragments. This is like WoW, or Eve, or whatever the game is where they introduce stuff uber only to nerf it into oblivion.
[[/RANT]]

Ok, that felt good. Now for something constructive. Armor and speed should never come together and never be absent together. Both these mistakes have been made with the moth, and I think it's time to change them.

Current moth, (should be called prototype because it sucks like the raptor):
Armor: 20,000
Cargo: 120
Weapons: 2 Large
Mass: 30,000
Thrust: 550
Speed: 65
Turbo: 160
Drain: 50

Behemoth MkI, (suggested basic):
Armor: 40,000
Cargo: 120
Weapons: 2 Large
Mass: 30,000
Thrust: 600
Speed: 60
Turbo: 150
Drain: 50

Behemoth MkII, (suggested Bulk Transport):
Armor: 50,000
Cargo: 240
Weapons: 1 Large
Mass: 50,000
Thrust: 1000
Speed: 50
Turbo: 120
Drain: 50

Behemoth MkIII, (suggested mining and maybe faction variant):
Armor: 16,000
Cargo: 120
Weapons: 2 Large, 1 Small
Mass: 30,000
Thrust: 750
Speed: 60
Turbo: 160
Drain: 60

Ok, there you go. Any thoughts?

-Calder

The bulk transport has too much armor. It would end up being the defacto new and only used trade ship. 45k armor and a MUCH slower speed (say, 100-120), and a higher cargo cap would make a good high capacity varient that still requires group trade through dangerous space, and smart storm avoidence in nation space. A moth should not survive an ion storm on armor alone. A 60k moth with a 140 top speed probably can.

The very fact that you are determined to up the stats on a moth proves that it should stay nerfed. The are a great number of really great cargo ships. The altas line of ships are quick and nimble. There are wraths and centaurs. There are cargo variants of (almost?) every line of ship. The Prom2 rocks! But every one wants to beef up the moth.

You want to trade solo? in grey? through ion storms and pirates and ctc wars? grab you a nice little atlas x or hornet cargo or even a cute little centurian mkII.

Driving a mega frieghter unescorted through pirate infested hive overrun storm strewn systems? what where you thinking? someone should boom you.

Tumble, do you know how slow 140 IS? None of us do, because no ship in the GAME has that slow a turbo speed. Decreasing the armor to 50k is probably better, but decreasing the speed to 130 might work. The problem is that trading would be even MORE boring. And YES a moth should be able to survive an ion storm. Honestly, if you tried playtesting this I think you'd find it's a heck of a lot harder to survive in a defenseless but well armored sloth than you previously thought.

140 is not that slow for such a large, heavilly laden vessel. We all know what that speed feels like, because we pass it constantly. I'm not making this stuff up, I have flown the moth since the nerf. I don't find it difficult to survive in the current moth, even in an insane ion storm. In fact I haven't died in a storm in a moth, ever. I'm commenting on the suggested variants above. My feeling is that if you add armor or cargo capacity, you should see a proportional decrease in top speed. If you ask me, a very large cargo ship (300+cu) shouldn't even have a turbo top speed. It should be able to fly as fast as it flies, and thats it. You want to trade in something so massive (and hopefully expensive) you should be aware of the risks and increased preparation need to safely fly one through space.

One final thought: I think that, besides the current version and the NPC only (not ofr long I hope!) Moth Heavy, there probably don't need to be more moth variants. I'd much rather see a larger, slower cargo vessel to fill the long haul, large load role in trade.

I completely agree with the necesity of adding a large trading ship, and have been posting stuff to that extent practically since I joined the game. I HATE trading, and the one thing, (after the economy redux of course,) that I would like to see most in the game is a 960 cu freighter/frigate with, (sorry, more suggested stats,)

Basic Cost: 5 million credits
Armor: 2,000,000
Cargo: 960
Weapons: 4 Turrets
Mass: ***As existing capships***
Thrust: ***As existing capships***
Speed: 50
Turbo: None

That's only a rough estimate of course, but you get the picture...

Anyway, back to the moth. Tumble, just like we still have atlases and stuff for people without enough licenses, we should maintain moth variants for people who lack funds or guild support. I'd REALLY like to see how some of my suggested moths behave in-game, mainly so I can find out how much damage you can pump into something going 140.

If only the devs could release something that isn't, to their standards, as perfect as it can be. Would it really unbalance the game so much to try out these variants for a week or two? I mean, heck, we had the old übermoth almost 9 months!

-Calder

it's not the storm that kills ya' it's the bots.

seriosuly why does everyone expect the moth to always be able to escape ASSAULT and GUARDIAN bots. bots should be a lot scarier than they are right now.

I lost one of the pre-nerf moths in a storm once. I think it was the 60cu of Samoflange in the glove compartment that did it.

only trade to sectors that voys are going to and hide in the trident! Actually...if you can manage to dock a moving trident with a moth you can probably elude most prey despite the speed factor heh