Forums » Suggestions
OK After thinking along the lines of the new UI for a bit after I logged off last night, I played a little Homeworld2 Demo just to get a feel for how their interface worked, and I realized that Vendetta was missing something that Homeworld has in spades: A sense of scale.
If you think about it, the ships we have right now are basically all the same size. Single-person flyers. Sized from Centurion to Behemoth, none are really BIG.
I know that the capships/HAC's, TPG Frigate, Trident, etc are all coming soon™, but I want something HUGE. I mean, the largest station only looks to be about as big as the capship.
I know that there are some problems with very large objects in the game engine (Such as planetoids, etc), but having huge stations, gigantic ship-fabricating facilities, and floating starbases would go a long way towards introducing a sense of awe and wonder at these gigantic constructions.
Illustrating my point: http://www.coalitionofitan.org/itan_images/scale.jpg
Ideally, I'm thinking that there would be huge stations with docking bays large enough for ships twice the size of the current HAC. I'd like to see orbital platforms that it took me 5 minutes to circumnavigate in my cent. Space is BIG. It should seem like you are a lonely little pilot in a BIG BIG universe.
I'd like to have dogfights whilst skimming over the surface of star cruisers and having to avoid the antennas/cannons/spires that stick up from them. Or have gigantic starships that had docking bays large enough to actually have a dogfight INSIDE.
But, I dunno if this is possible. Apparently this would require massive modifications to the way the game works?
I'd still like it. Lots.
If you think about it, the ships we have right now are basically all the same size. Single-person flyers. Sized from Centurion to Behemoth, none are really BIG.
I know that the capships/HAC's, TPG Frigate, Trident, etc are all coming soon™, but I want something HUGE. I mean, the largest station only looks to be about as big as the capship.
I know that there are some problems with very large objects in the game engine (Such as planetoids, etc), but having huge stations, gigantic ship-fabricating facilities, and floating starbases would go a long way towards introducing a sense of awe and wonder at these gigantic constructions.
Illustrating my point: http://www.coalitionofitan.org/itan_images/scale.jpg
Ideally, I'm thinking that there would be huge stations with docking bays large enough for ships twice the size of the current HAC. I'd like to see orbital platforms that it took me 5 minutes to circumnavigate in my cent. Space is BIG. It should seem like you are a lonely little pilot in a BIG BIG universe.
I'd like to have dogfights whilst skimming over the surface of star cruisers and having to avoid the antennas/cannons/spires that stick up from them. Or have gigantic starships that had docking bays large enough to actually have a dogfight INSIDE.
But, I dunno if this is possible. Apparently this would require massive modifications to the way the game works?
I'd still like it. Lots.
Such huge stations are called planets...
Seriously though, a ship to accommodate a docking bay for the HAC would be utterly stupid from a ship designer's point of view. Rather make docks like today's ship ports and use repair and transport drones. That would pose an entirely different problem, however ( two objects would have to become one).
Other than that, the scale thing gets my approval...
Seriously though, a ship to accommodate a docking bay for the HAC would be utterly stupid from a ship designer's point of view. Rather make docks like today's ship ports and use repair and transport drones. That would pose an entirely different problem, however ( two objects would have to become one).
Other than that, the scale thing gets my approval...
I totally agree here Leber.
Stations as well as even the hive queens seems to be way too small of scale. The queens should be "WAY" bigger than a one man ship. Think of movies such as Star Wars here.... when in space a small ship (X-wing, Tie Fighter, etc.) compared to a Star Destroyer. The Cap ship is ALOT bigger than a single fighter. It takes a long time for a fighter to fly around the Cap ship.
Then the starbase (Deathstar), that is HUGE. Fighters are a little spec next to it, and can fly into it. This would just be awesome to have some HUGE stations out there that actually dwarfs single man ships.
Adding some massive scale would make the game so much cooler, and a lot more believable. It would also increase the fun and WOW factors a lot. Think of coming out of a WH for the first time in a sector to see a MASSIVE station you can fly to.
[Approved idea by far]
Stations as well as even the hive queens seems to be way too small of scale. The queens should be "WAY" bigger than a one man ship. Think of movies such as Star Wars here.... when in space a small ship (X-wing, Tie Fighter, etc.) compared to a Star Destroyer. The Cap ship is ALOT bigger than a single fighter. It takes a long time for a fighter to fly around the Cap ship.
Then the starbase (Deathstar), that is HUGE. Fighters are a little spec next to it, and can fly into it. This would just be awesome to have some HUGE stations out there that actually dwarfs single man ships.
Adding some massive scale would make the game so much cooler, and a lot more believable. It would also increase the fun and WOW factors a lot. Think of coming out of a WH for the first time in a sector to see a MASSIVE station you can fly to.
[Approved idea by far]
Yeah, this would be cool for some things, like nation capital stations and such. Maybe even UIT trade ports. But keep in mind a lot of the stations in grey are meant to be more like outposts. Other than that, I'd love to see some more scale.
Actually... I don't know if I agree with this. It sounds good in theory but...
You also have to take into consideration the speeds at which our craft are moving. A long time ago in a thread far far away the argument was made that in order to keep things tactically interesting a cap ship would have to vacate its own position in no more than 30 seconds. This number is open to debate of course but you get the idea. If we start getting 6 km long cap ships then they would have to move that much faster to keep space battles interesting.
Also, take into consideration the velocity of fighter craft in relation to cap ship scale... what is the optimum size/velocity ratio? In other words, if I boost in one direction for 10 seconds, by how much should my tactical situation change? If I'm staring down a 6 km long cap ship, it will have changed far less than versus a 1 km long cap ship.
All things being equal the bigger the cap ships are, the slower it will make the fighter craft feel. Trust me on this one. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.
I agree that it would be nice to see some larger stations, but I think that is already in the works.
You also have to take into consideration the speeds at which our craft are moving. A long time ago in a thread far far away the argument was made that in order to keep things tactically interesting a cap ship would have to vacate its own position in no more than 30 seconds. This number is open to debate of course but you get the idea. If we start getting 6 km long cap ships then they would have to move that much faster to keep space battles interesting.
Also, take into consideration the velocity of fighter craft in relation to cap ship scale... what is the optimum size/velocity ratio? In other words, if I boost in one direction for 10 seconds, by how much should my tactical situation change? If I'm staring down a 6 km long cap ship, it will have changed far less than versus a 1 km long cap ship.
All things being equal the bigger the cap ships are, the slower it will make the fighter craft feel. Trust me on this one. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.
I agree that it would be nice to see some larger stations, but I think that is already in the works.
Oh, sure, I think there should be small (very small) stations in grayspace still, mere outposts.
Luis has already said he's working on space junk to scatter around the different sectors. Dunno how BIG that stuff will be. I hope some of it is BIG.
Well OK, 6km long capships would be silly. How about 1 km tho? I'm just going for a feeling of the gigantic. Perhaps the Starbase Ellias Stand in Deneb O-3 is a MONSTER, perhaps it IS 10 km from end-to-end and 5 km in the other dimensions or something. It would not move, so I guess that obviates the need for moving it outta the way in 30 seconds.
The gigantic stuff would not need to move to inspire with its sheer size. So maybe just stations/starbases/deserted alien hulks, etc?
I trust you on this, Phaser, regarding the bigness of the capships making the fighters seem slower. The game universe is already not in sync with "reality" as far as physics goes, I guess just make the capships slower in comparison? 1km long capship vacating its position (lengthwise) in 30 seconds is only 35 m/s. Seems OK to me.
Luis has already said he's working on space junk to scatter around the different sectors. Dunno how BIG that stuff will be. I hope some of it is BIG.
Well OK, 6km long capships would be silly. How about 1 km tho? I'm just going for a feeling of the gigantic. Perhaps the Starbase Ellias Stand in Deneb O-3 is a MONSTER, perhaps it IS 10 km from end-to-end and 5 km in the other dimensions or something. It would not move, so I guess that obviates the need for moving it outta the way in 30 seconds.
The gigantic stuff would not need to move to inspire with its sheer size. So maybe just stations/starbases/deserted alien hulks, etc?
I trust you on this, Phaser, regarding the bigness of the capships making the fighters seem slower. The game universe is already not in sync with "reality" as far as physics goes, I guess just make the capships slower in comparison? 1km long capship vacating its position (lengthwise) in 30 seconds is only 35 m/s. Seems OK to me.
Sounds good to me. I'd love to see a massive guard station in deneb. I'm hoping for a lot of debris floating around in that sector too. Just to be historically accurate =). And maybe even some goliath cannons!
Oh, one more thing: I don't think these objects should be static chunks. They should have rotating radar dishes, blinking lights, control/docking arms moving around inside, hell even folks looking out the windows. (What's that guy's name again who's already in there, looking out the windows?)
I certainly hope that the HAC won't be the largest capitol ship that we will see. I don't know about the size that Leber is talking about (although that would certainly be awesome to see), but 1 km ship I think is quite possible. The devs would just have to do it right.
Well, I dunno if THAT's the limiting factor. I'm sure the devs could DO it right, but I seem to recall the problem having something to do with the way that the game engine handles extremely large objects. I'll try to look up the thread.
EDIT: Well, not exactly what I was looking for, but some of the scale arguments are made in this thread re: making an asteroid:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7864?page=1
EDIT: Well, not exactly what I was looking for, but some of the scale arguments are made in this thread re: making an asteroid:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7864?page=1
Something like this only requires 6 polys!
[STAMP OF APPROVAL]
In response to Phaser's issue with the sizes and velocities involved, I would argue that the capitol ships, expecially REALLY big ones, shouldn't need to move any faster. For one, it needs to be possible to control a relative speed alongside its hull, which is difficult enough as-is when they decide to rotate or move, but really, why should we expect them to move fast anyway? it seems to me that it makes perfect sense to have larger ships move just as slowly or slower than smaller ones. It's not the speed that needs to be adjusted for them, it's the tactical application - they'll just need to fill a role in which their slow speed is not a problem (ie, carrier or hybrid cruiser, ranged heavy assault, mass-transit, etc..) It should be a given that fighter support will be needd in order to protect these heavy ships - it's not like they're relying on their speed and agility to survive in a firefight. If anything, they should all move slower than they do now. the Maneuvering of a capitol ship should consist in combat, largely of rolling (to expose undamaged armor/turrets to another ship) and slow, broadside passes.
I'm all for massive ships... for one, we do need a medium-heavy to fall somewhere between the HAC and the moth - just too big a discrepancy there... but we also need super-heavies that dwarf their escorting HAC-sized ships... command ships and assault carriers. And we most definately need some bigger stations and docks (capitol ships should have proportionally-sized 'drydocks' - like a station built in a frame around where they dock)
I think an important aspect of scale is also the role of capitol ships as carriers for smaller vessels... many of them should carry fighters that only undock in combat, as well as shuttles, and the docking facilities to accomodate other (including player) ships of various sizes.
What would you say to making some docking bays of different types? perhaps give the larger stations internal bays, in which you can dock and undock either through the classic fly-in bays or docking terminals that you can attach to externally (and then perhaps be drawn in to a larger bay to free up the docking area?) so that these larger stations might be able to accomodate ships far larger than the current bays.
.
Imagine the impression as you jump into a sector and are confronted by a massive colonial station, 8 kilometers across, with spires and domes projecting from it's irregular and dimly-lit surface, sparkling with lights... below, the rings of a class-J planet extend to the far reaches of your vision, and above, a 5-kilometer long hybrid cruiser sits in drydock as tiny maintainance bots buzz about along its surface, and a smaller capship stands guard.
In response to Phaser's issue with the sizes and velocities involved, I would argue that the capitol ships, expecially REALLY big ones, shouldn't need to move any faster. For one, it needs to be possible to control a relative speed alongside its hull, which is difficult enough as-is when they decide to rotate or move, but really, why should we expect them to move fast anyway? it seems to me that it makes perfect sense to have larger ships move just as slowly or slower than smaller ones. It's not the speed that needs to be adjusted for them, it's the tactical application - they'll just need to fill a role in which their slow speed is not a problem (ie, carrier or hybrid cruiser, ranged heavy assault, mass-transit, etc..) It should be a given that fighter support will be needd in order to protect these heavy ships - it's not like they're relying on their speed and agility to survive in a firefight. If anything, they should all move slower than they do now. the Maneuvering of a capitol ship should consist in combat, largely of rolling (to expose undamaged armor/turrets to another ship) and slow, broadside passes.
I'm all for massive ships... for one, we do need a medium-heavy to fall somewhere between the HAC and the moth - just too big a discrepancy there... but we also need super-heavies that dwarf their escorting HAC-sized ships... command ships and assault carriers. And we most definately need some bigger stations and docks (capitol ships should have proportionally-sized 'drydocks' - like a station built in a frame around where they dock)
I think an important aspect of scale is also the role of capitol ships as carriers for smaller vessels... many of them should carry fighters that only undock in combat, as well as shuttles, and the docking facilities to accomodate other (including player) ships of various sizes.
What would you say to making some docking bays of different types? perhaps give the larger stations internal bays, in which you can dock and undock either through the classic fly-in bays or docking terminals that you can attach to externally (and then perhaps be drawn in to a larger bay to free up the docking area?) so that these larger stations might be able to accomodate ships far larger than the current bays.
.
Imagine the impression as you jump into a sector and are confronted by a massive colonial station, 8 kilometers across, with spires and domes projecting from it's irregular and dimly-lit surface, sparkling with lights... below, the rings of a class-J planet extend to the far reaches of your vision, and above, a 5-kilometer long hybrid cruiser sits in drydock as tiny maintainance bots buzz about along its surface, and a smaller capship stands guard.
Or to further that point: the feeling you get when you're making a strafing run on a gigantic several km long ship dodging between antennae and gun turrets as you shoot by!
i don't know trhat cap ships should get much bigger than 1.5 km long (but that is roughly twice the length of the curent HAC).
Then the illusion of a gater size can be created by making long wide and flat ships.
but stations should definately aproach the size of a city.
Then the illusion of a gater size can be created by making long wide and flat ships.
but stations should definately aproach the size of a city.
Please OH PLEASE make bigger stuff in the verse!!!!
Everything is vanilla atm. Nothing is too extreme which is sad really. I want to see some motherships with frigate manufacturing facilities deep in her belly that can be brought to the battlefield for massive attacks. Campaigns if you will!! I want to invade Serco Prime and hold it's space with a fleet of HACS, frigates, etc. and they all should be huge!
Here is an idea of the variety in size that we should EXPECT and DEMAND from the devs. Anything less would be a step backwards for this style of game. See those little tiny fighters at the botton left, that's VO's ships atm, see the destroyer, first large capital, not frigate, that's about what a HAC is atm. Bring us our large ships.
Everything is vanilla atm. Nothing is too extreme which is sad really. I want to see some motherships with frigate manufacturing facilities deep in her belly that can be brought to the battlefield for massive attacks. Campaigns if you will!! I want to invade Serco Prime and hold it's space with a fleet of HACS, frigates, etc. and they all should be huge!
Here is an idea of the variety in size that we should EXPECT and DEMAND from the devs. Anything less would be a step backwards for this style of game. See those little tiny fighters at the botton left, that's VO's ships atm, see the destroyer, first large capital, not frigate, that's about what a HAC is atm. Bring us our large ships.
IMO, they could start with giving the UIT capital station(s) a makeover. When I heard about them, I figured they're be HUGE ring-shaped stations with extensions all over the place-- a real trade hub, if you will.
Instead, I jump into Dau Whatever, and I see a relatively normal sized station.
I'll work on a basic model of what I think Dau Senate should look like, once I finish this project.
Instead, I jump into Dau Whatever, and I see a relatively normal sized station.
I'll work on a basic model of what I think Dau Senate should look like, once I finish this project.
Yes.
Yeah, I always thought UIT stations should be massive. Reason being that, well... they have to live on them.
http://www.artwrkz.net/scottsart/dump0045.jpg
Kinda the vendetta sense of scale, took a screenshot of a Bus
outside of a Jallik medium sized station, kinda on the smaller end of the medium size stations. Basically with the bus it looks effective, but It does work with capital ships, or other larger ships especially that Jallik is a border system and should have some form of defenses! Not these mediocre stations.
I love the style vendetta stations have and by looking at them we all know the devs built them out of a kinda station editor system, through components and what not, So it shouldnt be to hard to replace the capital and border stations with massively large stations, Perhaps this is naive but i bet if anything it can be done inside of a three month window.
Also in terms of scale I think the larger ships such as the trident and the HAC's are goign to add to that sense of scale, seeing as a Trident is five times as long as a behemoth and nearly three times as wide. So the larger ships and such will help however stations and some other universe objects really do need to be massive *Take notes luis ^^ I wanna see a station in wreckage that I can fly through and take several minutes to do it.*
Examples of good stations are:
Dau G 11
Deneb 03
Itan J11
Verasi I5
Odia C2
]http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Station_Odia-C2.png
Edras G11
Azek C14
Artana Aquilus L14
These are all what should be considered medium stations!, Large stations should vary from twice to nearly four times the size for capital stations, they also need to be strung out and not so condensed, let them have a breath lol
Other than Verasi I5 which is actually a good size.
Kinda the vendetta sense of scale, took a screenshot of a Bus
outside of a Jallik medium sized station, kinda on the smaller end of the medium size stations. Basically with the bus it looks effective, but It does work with capital ships, or other larger ships especially that Jallik is a border system and should have some form of defenses! Not these mediocre stations.
I love the style vendetta stations have and by looking at them we all know the devs built them out of a kinda station editor system, through components and what not, So it shouldnt be to hard to replace the capital and border stations with massively large stations, Perhaps this is naive but i bet if anything it can be done inside of a three month window.
Also in terms of scale I think the larger ships such as the trident and the HAC's are goign to add to that sense of scale, seeing as a Trident is five times as long as a behemoth and nearly three times as wide. So the larger ships and such will help however stations and some other universe objects really do need to be massive *Take notes luis ^^ I wanna see a station in wreckage that I can fly through and take several minutes to do it.*
Examples of good stations are:
Dau G 11
Deneb 03
Itan J11
Verasi I5
Odia C2
]http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Station_Odia-C2.png
Edras G11
Azek C14
Artana Aquilus L14
These are all what should be considered medium stations!, Large stations should vary from twice to nearly four times the size for capital stations, they also need to be strung out and not so condensed, let them have a breath lol
Other than Verasi I5 which is actually a good size.
Yes! I always feel that the HAC feels a lil small for a Heavy Assault Cruiser