Forums » Suggestions
Rene, how bout this... you DROP your cargo, turn, blast the pirate, pick up your cargo, and go on your way?
I don't see why you should be able to beat anyone with a hold full of phase arrays, in ANY ship.
I don't see why you should be able to beat anyone with a hold full of phase arrays, in ANY ship.
If i drop it I lost. sinc ehtere is nothing that stops him from picking it up as you do during ctc. There is no real defense possible of cargo. And its not easy catching a valk that runs off with part of your cargo... (unless your in a valk yourself). Not to mention that in most cases the tradeship will lose against a fighterinclined ship as I would expect (although you have a chance, unless that pirate is shape...).
Still there was nowhere anything that i stated that i wanted to beat anyone with a full hold of phase arrays... What i did say was that the difference between an empty load or a full load makes the ship perform like a warmachine in stead of a cargofreigter and that that is in most cases partly a reason why you see the complains about the moth. Just as an atlas outclasses a hog sometimes and a centaur a rag but acts as a cargofreighter once they are carrying their intended cargo...
Still there was nowhere anything that i stated that i wanted to beat anyone with a full hold of phase arrays... What i did say was that the difference between an empty load or a full load makes the ship perform like a warmachine in stead of a cargofreigter and that that is in most cases partly a reason why you see the complains about the moth. Just as an atlas outclasses a hog sometimes and a centaur a rag but acts as a cargofreighter once they are carrying their intended cargo...
right, if someone picks up that cargo, you kill them. fairly easily. anything except certain traders (well, one of them) full of heavy cargo doesn't move.
So you bring a set of mines, and some flares, you turn drop cargo+a mine, flip, launch flares, and watch the hilarity ensue. There are lots of ways to deal with this rene.
A couple of neut shots while you enter for the catch are enough to weed out most prox mines.
On top of that you have made sure that you had landed a couple of flares to make him tumble around for a little sec so you have time to grab the cargo. Just letting him dodge some flares is already enough to give you the time to intercept the cargo.
Next, a valk boosting in and grabbing the cargo will have at least aheadstart of a couple 100 meters before a tradeship can pursue. And seeing that a tradeship is already at a disadvantage maxspeedwise and in most cases has place for 30 units, and you now lost 4... i don't think that you will take the chance of pursuing the pirate for those 4 pieces while not taking care of that 26 others. So in the end all you are doing is just bending over and letting it be taken from you then actually do anyhting to stop them...
I won't say that it won't succeed, but only in aminority of the occasions since you won't get an old dog 2 times with the same trick...
On top of that you have made sure that you had landed a couple of flares to make him tumble around for a little sec so you have time to grab the cargo. Just letting him dodge some flares is already enough to give you the time to intercept the cargo.
Next, a valk boosting in and grabbing the cargo will have at least aheadstart of a couple 100 meters before a tradeship can pursue. And seeing that a tradeship is already at a disadvantage maxspeedwise and in most cases has place for 30 units, and you now lost 4... i don't think that you will take the chance of pursuing the pirate for those 4 pieces while not taking care of that 26 others. So in the end all you are doing is just bending over and letting it be taken from you then actually do anyhting to stop them...
I won't say that it won't succeed, but only in aminority of the occasions since you won't get an old dog 2 times with the same trick...
I agree with Renegade RIP in that I think the Moth is the only ship that really needs to be nerfed atm, but otherwise I think Spellcast has the right idea.
Going into greyspace in an unescorted trade ship should be suicide in most cases. The exception would be special lone traders designed to be able to defend themselves, like the Marauder or the Centaur. Haulers like the Atlas and the Moth would be dogfood. (Of course I'm only speaking of the basic variants, not the combat types like the Atlas X or the Agresso)
Also, momerath makes a good point that even fighters have cargo holds, and some trading may be profitable (e.g. blueprints: industrial espionage) with very low cu.
So, my 2c:
Nerf the moth to 160 m/s top speed, leave the armor for now. If this isn't enough, then remove one of its L ports. If this still isn't enough, then shave off some of its armor.
Tweak the centaur and atlas later on if need be.
edit: oh, also this is just a personal opinion, but I'm not sure I like the idea of having a "dumbed down" Moth that only NPCs fly. Dunno, just a personal pet peeve of mine when in a game an NPC supposedly has the same equipment as you but is somehow magically nerfed or buffed. I'd much rather see several variants of the Moth, with the basic variant being what most NPCs fly.
Going into greyspace in an unescorted trade ship should be suicide in most cases. The exception would be special lone traders designed to be able to defend themselves, like the Marauder or the Centaur. Haulers like the Atlas and the Moth would be dogfood. (Of course I'm only speaking of the basic variants, not the combat types like the Atlas X or the Agresso)
Also, momerath makes a good point that even fighters have cargo holds, and some trading may be profitable (e.g. blueprints: industrial espionage) with very low cu.
So, my 2c:
Nerf the moth to 160 m/s top speed, leave the armor for now. If this isn't enough, then remove one of its L ports. If this still isn't enough, then shave off some of its armor.
Tweak the centaur and atlas later on if need be.
edit: oh, also this is just a personal opinion, but I'm not sure I like the idea of having a "dumbed down" Moth that only NPCs fly. Dunno, just a personal pet peeve of mine when in a game an NPC supposedly has the same equipment as you but is somehow magically nerfed or buffed. I'd much rather see several variants of the Moth, with the basic variant being what most NPCs fly.
I'm all for nerfing the moth but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do it in baby steps.
If the top speed goes down by more than 10 m/s its going to be worthless.
Not only does this kill the top speed but it decreases your acceleration as well.
Meaning that.....
It would take longer to get to 150 with a max of 160 versus getting to 150 with a max of 190.
So do it slowly.
If the top speed goes down by more than 10 m/s its going to be worthless.
Not only does this kill the top speed but it decreases your acceleration as well.
Meaning that.....
It would take longer to get to 150 with a max of 160 versus getting to 150 with a max of 190.
So do it slowly.
renegade you complain about constantly seeing the same arguments but you havent used any new ones either...
Momerath, I'm glad to hear that grey space will get more dangerous... But i really do feel that the game would be more interesting if a lone trader was pretty much restricted to nation space in any of the current 'trade' ships.
I DO like the idea of small amounts of valuable cargo however,
renegade, your point about the hog being a less able fighter than any cargo carrier when loaded with the same amount of cargo is only valid if the cargo has a high mass, here's what I would like to see for grey space trading.
Bulk cargo, ores, steel, raw materiels with high mass, would need to be transported in a ship that would more or less require joining a convoy and taking advantage of the escorts to move enough of it for a reasonable profit.
'finished goods' such as robotics, weapnons components, luxury goods and the like would become much more valuable, costing more to purchase and selling accordingly, These items would be valuable enough that taking a single ship and hiring escorts would be feasable.
There would be other low mass cargos that would have a high value... things that you put a large investment into a few cu's worth. This type of cargo would be worth risking a small ship on its own, perhaps making the demand for them much smaller than other cargo's so that you can only sell a dozen or so before the price starts to plummet.
Of course the whole economy needs looked at, I've posted threads about that in the past and commented in others.. i'm sure the devs will get to it eventually.
Momerath, I'm glad to hear that grey space will get more dangerous... But i really do feel that the game would be more interesting if a lone trader was pretty much restricted to nation space in any of the current 'trade' ships.
I DO like the idea of small amounts of valuable cargo however,
renegade, your point about the hog being a less able fighter than any cargo carrier when loaded with the same amount of cargo is only valid if the cargo has a high mass, here's what I would like to see for grey space trading.
Bulk cargo, ores, steel, raw materiels with high mass, would need to be transported in a ship that would more or less require joining a convoy and taking advantage of the escorts to move enough of it for a reasonable profit.
'finished goods' such as robotics, weapnons components, luxury goods and the like would become much more valuable, costing more to purchase and selling accordingly, These items would be valuable enough that taking a single ship and hiring escorts would be feasable.
There would be other low mass cargos that would have a high value... things that you put a large investment into a few cu's worth. This type of cargo would be worth risking a small ship on its own, perhaps making the demand for them much smaller than other cargo's so that you can only sell a dozen or so before the price starts to plummet.
Of course the whole economy needs looked at, I've posted threads about that in the past and commented in others.. i'm sure the devs will get to it eventually.
Both Leber and Leadfist pointed this out further back in the thread: some ships are INHERENTLY better than other.
In a class-based (and level-based) fantasy role-playing game, of course there should be balance between races and classes.
But in a semi-realistic space sim, of course some equipment and technology will be superior to others. The important thing here is not that each ship is balanced against all others in one-on-one combat, but that each ship fills a PURPOSE.
Some might be crap, but extremely cheap. Some might be fast, armoured or maneuverable, but most probably not all those things at the same time. Some might be just outright superior, but incredibly expensive, hard to get, limited in supply or carry other risks (illegal, military equipment that will have every enemy letting go of eveything else just to gun you down, and such).
In this line of reasoning, it's perfectly fine that the moth should be whatever it is right now. What it truly needs is a availability or economy nerf, as in raising the purchase cost or limiting the available number of moths.
And I really do hope there will be more ships that will require advanced tactics or greater numbers to bring down, just like the moth. It would be extremely silly, in-canon, rp-wise, if all ships in the universe could defeat all other ships in one-on-one when piloted by similarly skilled pilots. Some should just be superior, even if ALL ships should fill a purpose.
In a class-based (and level-based) fantasy role-playing game, of course there should be balance between races and classes.
But in a semi-realistic space sim, of course some equipment and technology will be superior to others. The important thing here is not that each ship is balanced against all others in one-on-one combat, but that each ship fills a PURPOSE.
Some might be crap, but extremely cheap. Some might be fast, armoured or maneuverable, but most probably not all those things at the same time. Some might be just outright superior, but incredibly expensive, hard to get, limited in supply or carry other risks (illegal, military equipment that will have every enemy letting go of eveything else just to gun you down, and such).
In this line of reasoning, it's perfectly fine that the moth should be whatever it is right now. What it truly needs is a availability or economy nerf, as in raising the purchase cost or limiting the available number of moths.
And I really do hope there will be more ships that will require advanced tactics or greater numbers to bring down, just like the moth. It would be extremely silly, in-canon, rp-wise, if all ships in the universe could defeat all other ships in one-on-one when piloted by similarly skilled pilots. Some should just be superior, even if ALL ships should fill a purpose.
Of course some ships should be superior in their given role, but going back to that part about each ship having a purpose...
The moth outstrips all ships of its class by far, thereby making other mining or trading ships useless. Making the moth economically rare isn't going to fix this, that is only a stopgap measure. Give a player a choice between a super expensive ship that outclasses a less expensive ship in all respects, they will save up for the more expensive ship. Flying the cheaper ship would only be an economic necessity for a short while until they had enough credits for the more expensive ship, and after that there would be no reason to fly the cheaper ship again.
Nothing wrong with the moth fulfilling its role as a heavy hauler better than all other heavy haulers, but not such that it makes ships like the atlas or mining marauder obselete. Ideally, no ship should eclipse another in ALL respects (disregarding cost, for the reasons stated above), each should have their strongpoints. The moth does this to several other classes of ships.
Apocynum does a good job of explaining that principle here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12579
The moth outstrips all ships of its class by far, thereby making other mining or trading ships useless. Making the moth economically rare isn't going to fix this, that is only a stopgap measure. Give a player a choice between a super expensive ship that outclasses a less expensive ship in all respects, they will save up for the more expensive ship. Flying the cheaper ship would only be an economic necessity for a short while until they had enough credits for the more expensive ship, and after that there would be no reason to fly the cheaper ship again.
Nothing wrong with the moth fulfilling its role as a heavy hauler better than all other heavy haulers, but not such that it makes ships like the atlas or mining marauder obselete. Ideally, no ship should eclipse another in ALL respects (disregarding cost, for the reasons stated above), each should have their strongpoints. The moth does this to several other classes of ships.
Apocynum does a good job of explaining that principle here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12579
Accel and top speed are two different things...
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT remove any of the ports from the moth.
DO NOT decrease the speed by more than 10m/sec
I definately think the vanilla moth needs major thrust and armor nerfage. With thrust down, it would be easier to fight or escape when empty and much harder when full, which is a good thing.
Rene:
if they're flying something light enough to get away with your cargo, then they won't be getting away with much of it! a valk can only hold 2-3u, and most fighters that would be a threat to your moth don't hold much more - you're still better off dropping it and retrieving it after they've either left or died. one L-mine and one prox mine works wonders when running, and megaposis are great if you plan to fight instead.
I definately want the thrust down. The accel on the moth is ludicrous given its mass and energy drain. Nerf the thrust!
Ideally, we would have different varients - a heavy, slow, well-armored one with a larger hold (say, 130u?) which would need escorts in grey, and perhaps a lighter, faster, less-armored, less efficient one with only 1 L-port and 100u of cargo, which would be able to hold its own and escape in grey, but wouldn't be rewarding in bulk missions.
Consider:
Behemoth MKI
Basic
Level: -/-/-/8/4
Armor: 35000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 30000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 180 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK II
Heavy Hauler
Level: -/-/-/10/4
Armor: 60000
Cargo: 140cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 60 m/s
Spin Torque: 17.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK III
Light Varient
Level: -/-/-/9/4
Armor: 25000
Cargo: 100cu
Weapons: 1 large ports
Mass: 27000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 70 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 190 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Tunguska Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +700 Tunguska
Level: 4/-/4/9/6
Armor: 45000
Cargo: 150cu
Weapons: 2 large ports, 1 small port
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 170 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/sec
I realize that there is a *lot* of variation there, but that should be a good thing, not bad. Each would have a distinct role, and each would be less overall-uber than the current moth; while the variations in cost/benefit areas are great, the overall balance should be about the same.
For reference against the current moth, see:
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Behemoth
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT remove any of the ports from the moth.
DO NOT decrease the speed by more than 10m/sec
I definately think the vanilla moth needs major thrust and armor nerfage. With thrust down, it would be easier to fight or escape when empty and much harder when full, which is a good thing.
Rene:
if they're flying something light enough to get away with your cargo, then they won't be getting away with much of it! a valk can only hold 2-3u, and most fighters that would be a threat to your moth don't hold much more - you're still better off dropping it and retrieving it after they've either left or died. one L-mine and one prox mine works wonders when running, and megaposis are great if you plan to fight instead.
I definately want the thrust down. The accel on the moth is ludicrous given its mass and energy drain. Nerf the thrust!
Ideally, we would have different varients - a heavy, slow, well-armored one with a larger hold (say, 130u?) which would need escorts in grey, and perhaps a lighter, faster, less-armored, less efficient one with only 1 L-port and 100u of cargo, which would be able to hold its own and escape in grey, but wouldn't be rewarding in bulk missions.
Consider:
Behemoth MKI
Basic
Level: -/-/-/8/4
Armor: 35000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 30000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 180 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK II
Heavy Hauler
Level: -/-/-/10/4
Armor: 60000
Cargo: 140cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 60 m/s
Spin Torque: 17.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK III
Light Varient
Level: -/-/-/9/4
Armor: 25000
Cargo: 100cu
Weapons: 1 large ports
Mass: 27000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 70 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 190 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Tunguska Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +700 Tunguska
Level: 4/-/4/9/6
Armor: 45000
Cargo: 150cu
Weapons: 2 large ports, 1 small port
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 170 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/sec
I realize that there is a *lot* of variation there, but that should be a good thing, not bad. Each would have a distinct role, and each would be less overall-uber than the current moth; while the variations in cost/benefit areas are great, the overall balance should be about the same.
For reference against the current moth, see:
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Behemoth
Last night, I was involved in an activity that required a fairly high amount of maneuverability and turbo thrust, and to my surprise, my empty behemoth was frighteningly good.
It's hard to turn, but the instant you're pointed where you want to go, hit turbo and you're off with none of the overshoot that you see in a ragnarok.
With weapons it would have been more difficult, but I doubt that the difference would be very great. Of course, with cargo, the Behemoth isn't nearly as responsive, but it's scary how awesome a lightened behemoth is.
It's hard to turn, but the instant you're pointed where you want to go, hit turbo and you're off with none of the overshoot that you see in a ragnarok.
With weapons it would have been more difficult, but I doubt that the difference would be very great. Of course, with cargo, the Behemoth isn't nearly as responsive, but it's scary how awesome a lightened behemoth is.
responsive EMPTY behemoth isn't a bad thing, unless it has MAD ARMOR (which it does). That aside, there really should be no reason that a moth would be *as* responsive as a ragnarok, much less moreso. Thrust needs major nerfage (as I've been saying... how long? long time...)
LostCommander rightly points out that there is a thread created by John for just this discussion. That would be the appropriate place to voice any NEW suggestions/concerns.