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Vendetta's future gameplay, and what I hope it will be.
My vision and hope for Vendetta’s future.
Vendetta has been showing much promise for the near future, with the Hive update coming, the Convoy update now released, the UI update well on it’s way, and the economy in progress. However, I think that there needs to be more depth to this than “Hive vs Galaxy” or somesuch. Also, having recently leveled an Alt, and contrasted to playing a few other space sims, I’ve come to a few other conclusions about our UI and ship model (and by that I mean how weapons work etc.) that I have outlined before, and will do so again, to an extent.
The Hive itself is not very interesting. It expands, it gets bushwhacked, it expands again, and so on. It has occurred to me that it’s not particularly realistic on a number of levels, particularly how it’s absolutely everywhere. Itani space would hardly allow hostile bots free passage through their borders, and I’m sure if the Itanis can prevent the Serco from invading, then they can stop the Hive. This goes for Serco as well. The Hive presence, if any, would be severely hindered by other mining companies, mercenaries, pirates, and local governments, among other things. Nations and companies alike would not allow the hive to have free reign of the universe – they would hire mercenaries/police (you) to get rid of the Hive, their competitors, or to defend their operation from the Hive/their competitors. Space is hard to govern, and I’m OK with having skirmishes and backhanded dealings between companies.
So, I think that we should remove the ‘hive’ from most nation space (except UIT – that’s where the hive started, so it’s OK there. I’ll outline this more in a moment). This hive would be replaced by rogue companies, individual miners, pirates and their resource-gathering operations, and rogue incursions by opposing nations trying to stay under the radar and be able to make a meaningful strike. Sure, the Hive can have much more freedom reign in Grey Space, but again, you’ve got Tunguska, and other groups trying to hold onto their resources. So, while players will be hired to take out the Hive in particular sectors, it will be held in check in part by other ships from these corporations and so on. So now, the universe would both be much more ‘busy’ not only in wormhole sectors, but asteroid clusters would have much more depth as well. This would also lend itself to player owned stations, and hiring bots to keep certain sectors free of the Hive, or hiring/buying mining bots to mine these sectors for your profit, etc.
As for our UI, I would ask that the devs implement the ability to add our own modules, and script them somehow so that we can customize them to show what we need them to show, rather than having a generic set of options. The off-screen indicator (to show where enemies are when they’re off screen) from Freespace 2 I have found myself missing immensely. Other things, like having weapon names instead of icons are also useful, as well as ‘monitoring’ lists for monitoring the health of critical ships, as well as health monitors in various parts of the screen (I would LOVE to have my enemies health displayed in my main reticle, rather than in the top right. Also, other indicators to indicate whether AutoAim and flight assist are on would be useful. A message window to send generic commands to wingmen (in a group or sector) would be great, because it would eliminate the need to type orders, and you would only need to press a few keys to send your order. (more on this here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10504 )
Finally, the current ship model that we have could use some improvement, in my opinion. If we want real variety in what people use to fight, as well as ship roles, then I really think that we ought to split energy and missile/rocket ports up. Energy is all well and good, but in leveling my alt, I found (once again) that it was a simple kill-find nearest bot-repeat process, and in using the various low level weapons again, I (once again) discovered that most missiles are absolutely useless, and to hit a target, they had to be moving absolutely still (at least in relationship to you), and remain that way. So, woo. These missiles are useful against the Leviathan, sorta. Woo, newbs aren’t going to be taking on the Leviathan. It’s a disconnect. Missiles need to be more useful (at least a little proximity, to help them hit. Really, like 1-3m would be good.), and their use needs to be encouraged, partly because Missiles and Rockets look cool, and they add to the ambience of the game. They’re also a money drain. You may complain that Swarms are already too uber, but bear with me.
A few things I would do to encourage the use of missiles along with keeping them fair, would be to split energy ports and missile ports up, as well as make carrying capacity for ships distinct from one another. For example, a Ragnarok may be able to carry 18 Sunflares per rocket/missile port, while a cent might only be able to hold 5. But at the same time, the Cent would still be able to hold a gun (assuming the cent we’re talking about is the Cent mk II or below). Think a Cent mk II with Sunflares is unfair? I do too. Here’s my caveat: Certain ships shouldn’t be allowed to hold certain weapons because of weapon port compatibility (similar to the L/S port deal, except less visible). For example, the Cent might not be able to use a Railgun, or a Flechette in it’s main port because of incompatibilities between, say, Itani or Serco technology or something. As for the missile port, it might not be able to use, say, the Sunflare because of it’s bulk, whereas it would be able to use it’s smaller counterparts.
And so on. I think you get where I’m going with this.
I hope that some of you took the time to read this through.
~Seldon
Vendetta has been showing much promise for the near future, with the Hive update coming, the Convoy update now released, the UI update well on it’s way, and the economy in progress. However, I think that there needs to be more depth to this than “Hive vs Galaxy” or somesuch. Also, having recently leveled an Alt, and contrasted to playing a few other space sims, I’ve come to a few other conclusions about our UI and ship model (and by that I mean how weapons work etc.) that I have outlined before, and will do so again, to an extent.
The Hive itself is not very interesting. It expands, it gets bushwhacked, it expands again, and so on. It has occurred to me that it’s not particularly realistic on a number of levels, particularly how it’s absolutely everywhere. Itani space would hardly allow hostile bots free passage through their borders, and I’m sure if the Itanis can prevent the Serco from invading, then they can stop the Hive. This goes for Serco as well. The Hive presence, if any, would be severely hindered by other mining companies, mercenaries, pirates, and local governments, among other things. Nations and companies alike would not allow the hive to have free reign of the universe – they would hire mercenaries/police (you) to get rid of the Hive, their competitors, or to defend their operation from the Hive/their competitors. Space is hard to govern, and I’m OK with having skirmishes and backhanded dealings between companies.
So, I think that we should remove the ‘hive’ from most nation space (except UIT – that’s where the hive started, so it’s OK there. I’ll outline this more in a moment). This hive would be replaced by rogue companies, individual miners, pirates and their resource-gathering operations, and rogue incursions by opposing nations trying to stay under the radar and be able to make a meaningful strike. Sure, the Hive can have much more freedom reign in Grey Space, but again, you’ve got Tunguska, and other groups trying to hold onto their resources. So, while players will be hired to take out the Hive in particular sectors, it will be held in check in part by other ships from these corporations and so on. So now, the universe would both be much more ‘busy’ not only in wormhole sectors, but asteroid clusters would have much more depth as well. This would also lend itself to player owned stations, and hiring bots to keep certain sectors free of the Hive, or hiring/buying mining bots to mine these sectors for your profit, etc.
As for our UI, I would ask that the devs implement the ability to add our own modules, and script them somehow so that we can customize them to show what we need them to show, rather than having a generic set of options. The off-screen indicator (to show where enemies are when they’re off screen) from Freespace 2 I have found myself missing immensely. Other things, like having weapon names instead of icons are also useful, as well as ‘monitoring’ lists for monitoring the health of critical ships, as well as health monitors in various parts of the screen (I would LOVE to have my enemies health displayed in my main reticle, rather than in the top right. Also, other indicators to indicate whether AutoAim and flight assist are on would be useful. A message window to send generic commands to wingmen (in a group or sector) would be great, because it would eliminate the need to type orders, and you would only need to press a few keys to send your order. (more on this here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10504 )
Finally, the current ship model that we have could use some improvement, in my opinion. If we want real variety in what people use to fight, as well as ship roles, then I really think that we ought to split energy and missile/rocket ports up. Energy is all well and good, but in leveling my alt, I found (once again) that it was a simple kill-find nearest bot-repeat process, and in using the various low level weapons again, I (once again) discovered that most missiles are absolutely useless, and to hit a target, they had to be moving absolutely still (at least in relationship to you), and remain that way. So, woo. These missiles are useful against the Leviathan, sorta. Woo, newbs aren’t going to be taking on the Leviathan. It’s a disconnect. Missiles need to be more useful (at least a little proximity, to help them hit. Really, like 1-3m would be good.), and their use needs to be encouraged, partly because Missiles and Rockets look cool, and they add to the ambience of the game. They’re also a money drain. You may complain that Swarms are already too uber, but bear with me.
A few things I would do to encourage the use of missiles along with keeping them fair, would be to split energy ports and missile ports up, as well as make carrying capacity for ships distinct from one another. For example, a Ragnarok may be able to carry 18 Sunflares per rocket/missile port, while a cent might only be able to hold 5. But at the same time, the Cent would still be able to hold a gun (assuming the cent we’re talking about is the Cent mk II or below). Think a Cent mk II with Sunflares is unfair? I do too. Here’s my caveat: Certain ships shouldn’t be allowed to hold certain weapons because of weapon port compatibility (similar to the L/S port deal, except less visible). For example, the Cent might not be able to use a Railgun, or a Flechette in it’s main port because of incompatibilities between, say, Itani or Serco technology or something. As for the missile port, it might not be able to use, say, the Sunflare because of it’s bulk, whereas it would be able to use it’s smaller counterparts.
And so on. I think you get where I’m going with this.
I hope that some of you took the time to read this through.
~Seldon
I think your idea is not very good.
There are some interesting bits, but overall it's the equivalent of the "great idea for a video-game I had while walking in circles in my room."
~[syn]n00b
~red team cat
~baron koob
~Baba Yaga
~Baron Karl Munchhausen
~Prince Balokonski'
~Emi Vanis
~q00u[uhs]
~Fumes
~The Snark
~Krokodil Gena
~Grandma
~Kitten
~Two point three
~emacsemacs
~Bridge Keeper
~Mister Airtight
~Bumblebee
~Don Rumata
~Mister Nice Guy
~Monday Morning
~Femur Lemur
~Oki!
~Zhangjiagang
~Jailbird
~Mrs. Wolf
~Dr. Snake
~Old Red
~Papa-Bear
~Vich
~Narrator
~The Invincible
~toothbrush
~Mistaken Identity
~degenerate vegetable
~pheasant plucker
There are some interesting bits, but overall it's the equivalent of the "great idea for a video-game I had while walking in circles in my room."
~[syn]n00b
~red team cat
~baron koob
~Baba Yaga
~Baron Karl Munchhausen
~Prince Balokonski'
~Emi Vanis
~q00u[uhs]
~Fumes
~The Snark
~Krokodil Gena
~Grandma
~Kitten
~Two point three
~emacsemacs
~Bridge Keeper
~Mister Airtight
~Bumblebee
~Don Rumata
~Mister Nice Guy
~Monday Morning
~Femur Lemur
~Oki!
~Zhangjiagang
~Jailbird
~Mrs. Wolf
~Dr. Snake
~Old Red
~Papa-Bear
~Vich
~Narrator
~The Invincible
~toothbrush
~Mistaken Identity
~degenerate vegetable
~pheasant plucker
Thing is, the framework for having multiple competing 'Hives' (IE, the Hive versus various mining groups and pirate organizations, et al) competing with one another using the Hive framework and Convoy update. I just think that would add so much more depth to the game, rather than a cheap cop-out ("oh noes! the Hive is EVERYWHERE! We can't mine!").
I rather expected Genka to be the first to post, heh.
I rather expected Genka to be the first to post, heh.
i disagree with the weapon system perposal. i like the modular designe that the ships curesntly have. and in my opinion it makes sence that any civilisation who could travel space could also designe interchangable weapons.
i agree that missiles should be encouraged for low lwvwl players, but i'd prefer the guidance on missiles be inpruved when targeting hive bots (the reasoning being that the hive don't have acess to thyenewest countermesures included onboard all modern ships, this could feasably extend to the EC series but that may be more difficult to code)
As for the hive:
i don't see why the hive should be completely removed from Itani and Serco space. it stands to reason that theb UIT sold a number of hive queens to both the Itani and Serco. While i agree the hive as a whole should be less prevalent in Itani and Serco space (maybe even nearly invisable in Serco space) than in UIT or Grey space, but tere should always be at least one queen in each nation's teratory (and one queen per nation woun't generate that many bots).
i agree that missiles should be encouraged for low lwvwl players, but i'd prefer the guidance on missiles be inpruved when targeting hive bots (the reasoning being that the hive don't have acess to thyenewest countermesures included onboard all modern ships, this could feasably extend to the EC series but that may be more difficult to code)
As for the hive:
i don't see why the hive should be completely removed from Itani and Serco space. it stands to reason that theb UIT sold a number of hive queens to both the Itani and Serco. While i agree the hive as a whole should be less prevalent in Itani and Serco space (maybe even nearly invisable in Serco space) than in UIT or Grey space, but tere should always be at least one queen in each nation's teratory (and one queen per nation woun't generate that many bots).
but... we NEED hive bots for early level-buyilding, and fun!
IMHO, the hive SHOULD be everywhere. and once everywhere, eliminating it (temporarily) in systems, or even whole nations would be possible, so it's not like ti would be an ann-prevailant thing (especially once VO has a larger playerbase)
IMHO, the hive SHOULD be everywhere. and once everywhere, eliminating it (temporarily) in systems, or even whole nations would be possible, so it's not like ti would be an ann-prevailant thing (especially once VO has a larger playerbase)
Wow. I disagree with this on so many levels.
Re: missiles. Missiles in this universe are bombing weapons, they are not designed to hit fighters (with the exception of swarms), they are designed to hit cap ships. And if you think newbies aren't ever going to encounter cap ships or take part in cap ship battles your vision of this game is drastically different than mine.
Re: splitting up weapon ports. You want to encourage more variety by limiting what types of weapons can go on each ship? That seems rather contradictory to me. The L/S ports are enough imho. If one weapon is getting overused then the answer is a balance update, but as far as I can tell the weapons we have are all fairly well balanced as it is.
Re: removing the hive from Serco and Itani space. Hmm, it would be interesting to see different types of bots in different areas of the universe, but I think this could be a factor of what ores are available/abundant in the system, and consequently what types of Hive bots get manufactured. (e.g. a new, rare ore type could be introduced in, say, Pyronis, that is used in the production of a new type of bot. You'd only see these bots in Pyronis, since that is where the ore is found and the Hive doesn't traverse whs).
I don't think the solution is to limit the hive to grey/UIT. You recommend replacing low level hive bots with NPCs, I'm strongly against this. I do think that there should be the NPCs you recommend, but as I understand it NPCs are designed to carry out the same jobs that players could, not to be level grind fodder.
I would like to see NPCs all over the universe, different corporations and subfactions in certain sectors of space, with different sets of behaviors. Messing with them would carry certain consequences with that faction.
The Hive itself is not very interesting. It expands, it gets bushwhacked, it expands again, and so on. It has occurred to me that it’s not particularly realistic on a number of levels, particularly how it’s absolutely everywhere.... a cheap cop-out ("oh noes! the Hive is EVERYWHERE! We can't mine!").
Cheap cop-out!!!?!? I love the fact that the hive is everywhere! The cycle of Hive growth is poetic and elegant, like the flood in Halo. The fact that the hive has virtually taken over the entire known universe creates a sense of impending doom and urgency, which is good from a content/roleplay standpoint. It's like Battlestar Galactica; humanity's own creation has taken over, multiplied, and has generated a constant struggle for survival. The Hive pwns all! All hail the Levi! All hail the Levi! *Throws up the horns and headbangs*
Seriously though, as I understand future plans the way the dynamic Hive is designed there's no reason Serco and Itani nations couldn't band amongst themselves to exterminate the hive, at least temporarily, from their nation space. It might take a Herculean effort, it might not, and there should always be at least a few low level bots around so the newbs have something to kill.
Re: missiles. Missiles in this universe are bombing weapons, they are not designed to hit fighters (with the exception of swarms), they are designed to hit cap ships. And if you think newbies aren't ever going to encounter cap ships or take part in cap ship battles your vision of this game is drastically different than mine.
Re: splitting up weapon ports. You want to encourage more variety by limiting what types of weapons can go on each ship? That seems rather contradictory to me. The L/S ports are enough imho. If one weapon is getting overused then the answer is a balance update, but as far as I can tell the weapons we have are all fairly well balanced as it is.
Re: removing the hive from Serco and Itani space. Hmm, it would be interesting to see different types of bots in different areas of the universe, but I think this could be a factor of what ores are available/abundant in the system, and consequently what types of Hive bots get manufactured. (e.g. a new, rare ore type could be introduced in, say, Pyronis, that is used in the production of a new type of bot. You'd only see these bots in Pyronis, since that is where the ore is found and the Hive doesn't traverse whs).
I don't think the solution is to limit the hive to grey/UIT. You recommend replacing low level hive bots with NPCs, I'm strongly against this. I do think that there should be the NPCs you recommend, but as I understand it NPCs are designed to carry out the same jobs that players could, not to be level grind fodder.
I would like to see NPCs all over the universe, different corporations and subfactions in certain sectors of space, with different sets of behaviors. Messing with them would carry certain consequences with that faction.
The Hive itself is not very interesting. It expands, it gets bushwhacked, it expands again, and so on. It has occurred to me that it’s not particularly realistic on a number of levels, particularly how it’s absolutely everywhere.... a cheap cop-out ("oh noes! the Hive is EVERYWHERE! We can't mine!").
Cheap cop-out!!!?!? I love the fact that the hive is everywhere! The cycle of Hive growth is poetic and elegant, like the flood in Halo. The fact that the hive has virtually taken over the entire known universe creates a sense of impending doom and urgency, which is good from a content/roleplay standpoint. It's like Battlestar Galactica; humanity's own creation has taken over, multiplied, and has generated a constant struggle for survival. The Hive pwns all! All hail the Levi! All hail the Levi! *Throws up the horns and headbangs*
Seriously though, as I understand future plans the way the dynamic Hive is designed there's no reason Serco and Itani nations couldn't band amongst themselves to exterminate the hive, at least temporarily, from their nation space. It might take a Herculean effort, it might not, and there should always be at least a few low level bots around so the newbs have something to kill.
My addition: The hive should traverse wormholes.
"QUEENS MOVING OUT OF SEDINA! SOMEONE GRAB A CAN OF RAID!"
"QUEENS MOVING OUT OF SEDINA! SOMEONE GRAB A CAN OF RAID!"
The thing is Phaserlight, that it's not really doom-inspiring when they just mind their own business. We need them to attack stations or something. Wouldn't that be great if you jumped into your favorite station in Sedina, and OMG THERE'S A HIVE QUEEN PERCHED ON TOP OF IT WITH ITS RETINUE!!!
^^ Hehe that would be so cool
I actually suggested that a long time ago before the dynamic hive was even implemented, and queens were the uber-bosses.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7196
But yeah, I never understood why the Hive wasn't more aggressive toward human settlements after we repeatedly kill their miners that do nothing but go about their own buisiness.
I think it would be awesome if the Hive could "infest" a station and start using its resources to churn out hive bots. It would probably have to be limited to one station per system though so things didn't get out of control.
I actually suggested that a long time ago before the dynamic hive was even implemented, and queens were the uber-bosses.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7196
But yeah, I never understood why the Hive wasn't more aggressive toward human settlements after we repeatedly kill their miners that do nothing but go about their own buisiness.
I think it would be awesome if the Hive could "infest" a station and start using its resources to churn out hive bots. It would probably have to be limited to one station per system though so things didn't get out of control.
I'm going to just try to address one issue at a time here, so we don't get sidetracked on "OMG You're suggesting too many changes!" - that said, I tried to put too much into one post initially, because now I've only got the folks who disagree reading this. Heh.
Missiles are currently useful only against capital ships. This is boring and stupid, since it takes no effort for a pilot to hang out at 1000m and press the fire button. To solve this, there should be a weapon class of bombs. Bombs should be slow, should have poor seeking (as well as requiring target lock), and cause much more damage than normal missiles or rockets. Above all, bombs need to be both targetable and destructible, for obvious reasons. Furthermore, bombs can only be carried by larger ships (Rag, et al) and only in small amounts.
As for missiles, they should be more deadly, require a missile lock, and instead of L and S ports, we ought to have L gun, S gun, L missile, H(umongous) missile, and S missile ports. Since the L missile port cannot hold as many missiles as the S missile port or the H missile port it would be impossible for a fighter to rely solely on missiles to win in combat.
Missiles are currently useful only against capital ships. This is boring and stupid, since it takes no effort for a pilot to hang out at 1000m and press the fire button. To solve this, there should be a weapon class of bombs. Bombs should be slow, should have poor seeking (as well as requiring target lock), and cause much more damage than normal missiles or rockets. Above all, bombs need to be both targetable and destructible, for obvious reasons. Furthermore, bombs can only be carried by larger ships (Rag, et al) and only in small amounts.
As for missiles, they should be more deadly, require a missile lock, and instead of L and S ports, we ought to have L gun, S gun, L missile, H(umongous) missile, and S missile ports. Since the L missile port cannot hold as many missiles as the S missile port or the H missile port it would be impossible for a fighter to rely solely on missiles to win in combat.
Sorry, Harry Seldon, but I was busy when you first posted and couldn't get to it now, so genka got first response post. ;)
I like the Hive + Hive-like NPCs idea, but agree with Phaserlight about the Hive simply getting blown away in nation space when we can anyway. The UI stuff sounds good too. I really do not care enough about the possibilities within increased weapon mount types/restrictions to want Dev time applied to it. There are SO many other things the game could benefit from more first.
I would like to suggest (probably not for the first tiime) that the dynamic Hive should attempt to investigate and exploit ALL asteroid containing sectors in every system (including station sectors). If the station guards are unable to hunt down a single Hive probe in 6-24 hours (I forget what it is), then the station should have to face on incursion of Hive bots.
As for a weapon idea, how about something like modern missiles? It would be a S port weapon with extremely limited ammo (1-4) and be fast (180-250 m/s), highly manuverable/seeking, and be proxy (5-10m).
I like the Hive + Hive-like NPCs idea, but agree with Phaserlight about the Hive simply getting blown away in nation space when we can anyway. The UI stuff sounds good too. I really do not care enough about the possibilities within increased weapon mount types/restrictions to want Dev time applied to it. There are SO many other things the game could benefit from more first.
I would like to suggest (probably not for the first tiime) that the dynamic Hive should attempt to investigate and exploit ALL asteroid containing sectors in every system (including station sectors). If the station guards are unable to hunt down a single Hive probe in 6-24 hours (I forget what it is), then the station should have to face on incursion of Hive bots.
As for a weapon idea, how about something like modern missiles? It would be a S port weapon with extremely limited ammo (1-4) and be fast (180-250 m/s), highly manuverable/seeking, and be proxy (5-10m).
Well, yes. The Hive would not be contained simply by the various corporations and such. However, I would suggest that mercenary groups/pirates, and so on sometimes become *more* of a dominant force than the Hive, leading the new threats, and so on. The hive is by no means the ultimate in "bad" - we need to have more than one villain, and besides, players could choose to ally themselves with the mercenary groups and pirates in these systems, so it would not only be a PvE opportunity, but also a PvP opportunity.
As for the hive trying to take over stations, I'd rather see the hive mount attacks on the stations, and disable them, or render it useless until convoys and players show up to fight off the Hive again, and repair the station. However, I largely left the whole "conquerable station" thing out of my post because...I mostly forgot about it, and it's also been suggested many times before. What I'm suggesting hasn't, as far as I know.
And yes, your idea for the missiles is more or less on. For lighter ships, a small number of missiles (probably sub-10) would be preferable, per port. Speed is also a good thing, but more importantly, their homing ability needs to be fixed. Proximity may be the fix for this, and I know it certainly seems like it would be when I'm botting.
Anyways, thanks for the response.
As for the hive trying to take over stations, I'd rather see the hive mount attacks on the stations, and disable them, or render it useless until convoys and players show up to fight off the Hive again, and repair the station. However, I largely left the whole "conquerable station" thing out of my post because...I mostly forgot about it, and it's also been suggested many times before. What I'm suggesting hasn't, as far as I know.
And yes, your idea for the missiles is more or less on. For lighter ships, a small number of missiles (probably sub-10) would be preferable, per port. Speed is also a good thing, but more importantly, their homing ability needs to be fixed. Proximity may be the fix for this, and I know it certainly seems like it would be when I'm botting.
Anyways, thanks for the response.