Forums » Suggestions
The combat in Vendetta is a blast, and I know that generally speaking the game physics are considered finished and Off Limits when it comes to suggestions, but I had a sudden idea strike me the other day that I began to like the more I thought about it, so perhaps the Devs will hear an old vet out...:
I love physics (non-FA) combat. Gunning someone down, then spinning around and engaging the bogey on your six... skating sideways through an asteroid field... the true to life feeling of inertia...
The thing is, as soon as someone hits the turbo these physics change somewhat. You boost for a distance, and as soon as you let go of the turbo you slow down suddenly as though there were a rubber band attached to your ship. This gives the feeling of "swimming" through space against a heavy frictional force rather than skating through it like in physics mode.
I realize that this was done to prevent turbo-tapping, and to make dogfights more feasible. But the fact of the matter is that once someone decides to turbo away the fight is normally over anyway. I think I've got an idea that will not only keep the fun physics gameplay even at turbo speeds but will also make dogfights feasable and even necessary at these speeds...
My suggestion involves four changes to the turbo system:
A) Double turbo energy usage for all ships
I never liked infiniturbo... boosting always seemed like it was supposed to be a violent, temporary engine overdrive to induce massive acceleration. The ec-88 can only boost for 10 seconds or so, but higher level ships have the ability to boost indefinitely. If turbo energy were doubled, an infiniturbo ship with a fast charge battery would be capable of a turbo burn of 5 seconds.
B) Add a 5-10 second cooldown period after every boost.
This is to prevent turbo tapping, and to keep boost vectors from changing too often.
C) Keep top speeds in place, but remove the frictional force.
If in those 5 seconds of burn you boosted up to 180 m/s, you would continue to travel under your current vector at 180 m/s until you hit the brakes. This would feel a lot less like "swimming" and more like skating around in physics mode. Provided you chose not to maneuver, your battery would recharge... the only cost in energy would be turbo acceleration.
D) Limit sub-turbo thrust vectors to a cone which contains all sub-turbo velocities.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/803558/Ship_at_rest.jpg
There is a top-down view of your ship at rest... the dotted circle represents possible sub-turbo velocity vectors, the solid line represents possible turbo vectors.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/803558/Ship_at_max.jpg
At turbo speeds you could only accelerate provided your thrust vector took you back down toward regular sub-turbo speeds. Therefore while you could continue to coast in a straight line at 180 m/s, any maneuvering would slow you down.
You could choose to make another turbo burn to modify your turbo vector, but the 5-10 second cooldown would only allow such course changes every so often.
Now I know the devs lock turbo directions in place for a reason, and I know we have that massive decelleration after every boost for a reason, and this could be a terrible idea. But humor me for just a little and think about my suggestion...
*Turboing would be like firing booster rockets... it would only happen once every so often to take you up to turbo speeds, and from there you would coast until you eventually maneuvered to a stop.
*Turbo vectors would still remain focused since any maneuvering would only slow you down. You could only "coast" in physics mode since FA would maneuver you back down to sub-turbo speed.
*Energy weapons could be effectively used at turbo speeds.
*Imagine chasing a pursuer into an asteroid field at 200 m/s... flipping around and exchanging blaster fire as blocks of ice go careening past... a game of chicken since any collision would certainly be fatal, and the first one to maneuver will slow down and lose the chase, be it pursuer or quarry.
The thrill of physics mode combat would still be there... boosting would no longer mean an automatic end to the fight. Sure there would be a five-second pause while you accelerated up to speed, but after that your pursuer would be right on your heels, continuing the awesome physics-style jockeying at 200 m/s!
If there is even a possibility that this might work (it might not, but it would be an absolute blast if it did) is there a chance we could give it a try on the test server?
I love physics (non-FA) combat. Gunning someone down, then spinning around and engaging the bogey on your six... skating sideways through an asteroid field... the true to life feeling of inertia...
The thing is, as soon as someone hits the turbo these physics change somewhat. You boost for a distance, and as soon as you let go of the turbo you slow down suddenly as though there were a rubber band attached to your ship. This gives the feeling of "swimming" through space against a heavy frictional force rather than skating through it like in physics mode.
I realize that this was done to prevent turbo-tapping, and to make dogfights more feasible. But the fact of the matter is that once someone decides to turbo away the fight is normally over anyway. I think I've got an idea that will not only keep the fun physics gameplay even at turbo speeds but will also make dogfights feasable and even necessary at these speeds...
My suggestion involves four changes to the turbo system:
A) Double turbo energy usage for all ships
I never liked infiniturbo... boosting always seemed like it was supposed to be a violent, temporary engine overdrive to induce massive acceleration. The ec-88 can only boost for 10 seconds or so, but higher level ships have the ability to boost indefinitely. If turbo energy were doubled, an infiniturbo ship with a fast charge battery would be capable of a turbo burn of 5 seconds.
B) Add a 5-10 second cooldown period after every boost.
This is to prevent turbo tapping, and to keep boost vectors from changing too often.
C) Keep top speeds in place, but remove the frictional force.
If in those 5 seconds of burn you boosted up to 180 m/s, you would continue to travel under your current vector at 180 m/s until you hit the brakes. This would feel a lot less like "swimming" and more like skating around in physics mode. Provided you chose not to maneuver, your battery would recharge... the only cost in energy would be turbo acceleration.
D) Limit sub-turbo thrust vectors to a cone which contains all sub-turbo velocities.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/803558/Ship_at_rest.jpg
There is a top-down view of your ship at rest... the dotted circle represents possible sub-turbo velocity vectors, the solid line represents possible turbo vectors.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/803558/Ship_at_max.jpg
At turbo speeds you could only accelerate provided your thrust vector took you back down toward regular sub-turbo speeds. Therefore while you could continue to coast in a straight line at 180 m/s, any maneuvering would slow you down.
You could choose to make another turbo burn to modify your turbo vector, but the 5-10 second cooldown would only allow such course changes every so often.
Now I know the devs lock turbo directions in place for a reason, and I know we have that massive decelleration after every boost for a reason, and this could be a terrible idea. But humor me for just a little and think about my suggestion...
*Turboing would be like firing booster rockets... it would only happen once every so often to take you up to turbo speeds, and from there you would coast until you eventually maneuvered to a stop.
*Turbo vectors would still remain focused since any maneuvering would only slow you down. You could only "coast" in physics mode since FA would maneuver you back down to sub-turbo speed.
*Energy weapons could be effectively used at turbo speeds.
*Imagine chasing a pursuer into an asteroid field at 200 m/s... flipping around and exchanging blaster fire as blocks of ice go careening past... a game of chicken since any collision would certainly be fatal, and the first one to maneuver will slow down and lose the chase, be it pursuer or quarry.
The thrill of physics mode combat would still be there... boosting would no longer mean an automatic end to the fight. Sure there would be a five-second pause while you accelerated up to speed, but after that your pursuer would be right on your heels, continuing the awesome physics-style jockeying at 200 m/s!
If there is even a possibility that this might work (it might not, but it would be an absolute blast if it did) is there a chance we could give it a try on the test server?
I like A, B, & C, but as a corrolary: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11287
Also, this would effectively limit how fast a ship could go with certain batteries, because of restrictions on energy. Hum, that may be the way to go.
Also, this would effectively limit how fast a ship could go with certain batteries, because of restrictions on energy. Hum, that may be the way to go.
It all really comes back to frame of reference... you can't have unlimited turbo vectors because ships would never see each other... they would pass in the blink of an eye... however, if you only allowed boosts every so often and made them last half as long, the possible vectors would be fairly limited, perhaps top turbo speeds could also be reduced somewhat... sub-turbo maneuvering could provide your "frictional force".. keeping two players in roughly the same F.O.R. albiet traveling at 200 m/s... and you would stay (relatively) true to Newtonian physics. The key to encouraging combat is keeping both players in the same frame of reference. The problem is that right now the way this is done prevents any sort of dogfighting since you're locked into a straight line and you have no energy... if you had the potential to maneuver at a cost to your momentum...
Just some random thoughts... as you can see I am very excited about this possibility.
Just some random thoughts... as you can see I am very excited about this possibility.
I like it.
I see no need to fix what ain't broke, lets consentrate on more new stuff.
If anyone remembers Tachyon: The Fringe... that game has very similar gameplay mechanics when it comes to turbo.
Each ship would have a maximum speed (like Vendetta)
Each ship could turbo up to a particular speed (like Vendetta)
However, there was a "slide" button that let you turn the ship around and coast at turbo speeds, letting you do some nice jousting and gauntlet style attacks on large structures that would normally gun you down instantly at normal speeds.
To counter this, there was another post regarding the gravitic drive propulsion system that the ships use to propel themselves. The reason why the ship slows down out of turbo is due to the fact that the gravitic field generated by the ship could not sustain a faster velocity without draining power from the batteries.
If we were to implement something like this with the current 'technology', it only makes sense to continue draining battery power when you are moving faster than the ship's normal top speed. If I were to suggest this, then I would say that acceleration should ALWAYS drain the battery, and a slower drain would kick in once the ship was up to maximum turbo velocity.
Current infiniturbo ships would be able to maintain a constant battery power without the ability to recharge, though the acceleration would cause a drop in battery power... no ship would ever be able to go through a wormhole under turbo speeds... this could be a good or bad thing.
Quicker fighters, or any ship not equipped with a fast charge would be subject to a slow battery drain while travelling at these speeds, and the initial acceleration should eat up a lot more battery power than the current turbo situation.
Technically, the idea of using 'more' energy to slow down doesn't work with the current 'gravitic drive' system... you would simply reduce the energy going to the system (via manoevering or braking) and that slows you down. (This explains why it takes a lot of time to get to 240m/s and no time at all to stop)
But, in the end, I agree with john (*gasp*), and I think there's not much point in changing the gameplay mechanics... they work great the way they are. Try and remember: There are NO NEWTONIAN PHYSICS in this game! If there were, we should be able to accelerate to the speed of light, and it would take just as long to stop as it does to speed up.
Each ship would have a maximum speed (like Vendetta)
Each ship could turbo up to a particular speed (like Vendetta)
However, there was a "slide" button that let you turn the ship around and coast at turbo speeds, letting you do some nice jousting and gauntlet style attacks on large structures that would normally gun you down instantly at normal speeds.
To counter this, there was another post regarding the gravitic drive propulsion system that the ships use to propel themselves. The reason why the ship slows down out of turbo is due to the fact that the gravitic field generated by the ship could not sustain a faster velocity without draining power from the batteries.
If we were to implement something like this with the current 'technology', it only makes sense to continue draining battery power when you are moving faster than the ship's normal top speed. If I were to suggest this, then I would say that acceleration should ALWAYS drain the battery, and a slower drain would kick in once the ship was up to maximum turbo velocity.
Current infiniturbo ships would be able to maintain a constant battery power without the ability to recharge, though the acceleration would cause a drop in battery power... no ship would ever be able to go through a wormhole under turbo speeds... this could be a good or bad thing.
Quicker fighters, or any ship not equipped with a fast charge would be subject to a slow battery drain while travelling at these speeds, and the initial acceleration should eat up a lot more battery power than the current turbo situation.
Technically, the idea of using 'more' energy to slow down doesn't work with the current 'gravitic drive' system... you would simply reduce the energy going to the system (via manoevering or braking) and that slows you down. (This explains why it takes a lot of time to get to 240m/s and no time at all to stop)
But, in the end, I agree with john (*gasp*), and I think there's not much point in changing the gameplay mechanics... they work great the way they are. Try and remember: There are NO NEWTONIAN PHYSICS in this game! If there were, we should be able to accelerate to the speed of light, and it would take just as long to stop as it does to speed up.
Wonderful idea. Combat in Vendetta is very fast-paced and intensive, but I'd always thought it would be fun to skate about at higher speeds whilst firing at each other.
Yes, no newtonian physics, but this is a small step closer towards real-life physics, while still not disrupting the intensity and ease of combat in VO.
Yes, no newtonian physics, but this is a small step closer towards real-life physics, while still not disrupting the intensity and ease of combat in VO.
we call it semi-newtonian physics, or maybe, newtonian-to-a-point physics. To a point, objects in motion will want to stay in motion.
Indeed, I'd like to re-iterate that I'd still enjoy the ability to slide at high speeds, perhaps with a slight energy drain, but be able to turn the ship on axis, but not be able to change the vector of my ship. Much like mouselook, but with the ship actually turning :) Would make for some interesting jousts!
This makes it easier to run. A lot easier. Boost in the direction you're going. Turn aroun - you're now going 180m/s backwards, but any poor fool trying to follow you is now going to get eaten alive by whatever gun you have armed. He'll have to dodge, and at those speeds, removing his finger from the turbo even for a second is enough to lose the target. Game over
Unless he turns round to see a few well placed sunnies headed his way, then he will have to dodge, and lose speed, or get hit. I like this idea, maybe they could try it on the test server sometime :D
No, then he just has to hit the D key. He'll keep his 180m/s backward speed and add 65m/s to the side. Now, you know how slow sunflares go, yoda, so dodging them while keeping your backward vector is trivial. The guy coming at you, though, has to dodge, then correct his course to stay coming at you. You just have to get away. You can basically drop a mine and he'll never catch up, because he has to go around it, then rematch his vector with yours. The runner sets the terms for the chase in Vendetta, and it's already pretty hard to catch someone - reducing the chaser's margin of error will logically make it harder.
I love this idea... I believe it could dramatically enhance both combat and navigational play.
I'd like to see this available for a test server run.
I'd like to see this available for a test server run.
not really starfisher
"At turbo speeds you could only accelerate provided your thrust vector took you back down toward regular sub-turbo speeds. Therefore while you could continue to coast in a straight line at 180 m/s, any maneuvering would slow you down."
quoted from the original suggestion.
attempting to strafe would bring you back down to non-turbo speeds if i'm reading the suggestion correctly.
"At turbo speeds you could only accelerate provided your thrust vector took you back down toward regular sub-turbo speeds. Therefore while you could continue to coast in a straight line at 180 m/s, any maneuvering would slow you down."
quoted from the original suggestion.
attempting to strafe would bring you back down to non-turbo speeds if i'm reading the suggestion correctly.
>>"attempting to strafe would bring you back down to non-turbo speeds if i'm reading the suggestion correctly."<<
probably not all at once, but yeah, that's the idea... you should only be allowed to decelerate from turbo velocity when using sub-turbo maneuvering
probably not all at once, but yeah, that's the idea... you should only be allowed to decelerate from turbo velocity when using sub-turbo maneuvering
This seems like a really neat idea to me. I think it's worth testing, especially since I'm not sure who's correct about the impact it would have on running. Unfortunately it's not trivial to implement, and we're focused on other things right now. At some point I'd definitely like to try it. The other problem, though, is, as it stands, in many cases, such a change makes the client able to connect only to the production or test servers and not both. I'm fairly sure that is the case here, though I'm not well versed in the sections of code we haven't changed since I came on board. Anyway, this is a thread I'll definitely bookmark. Keep the great suggestions coming!
/me forsees a test/production version toggle on the update module in the future...
I would have no issues havng a second vendetta-test client installed, lets face it, it doesnt take a lot of room on the hard drive. you could even ship it without an updater, so after that test is over, bye bye test client :)
But yeah, the way I saw it, was if the guy tried to use none turbo thust in any direction it would slow him down, not speed him up, and he would have to be a damn excellent pilot to line up on a 180 spin on the exact same reversed-axis in a 3d universe, no matter what control system you have :P (plus him turning to aim would also slow him down, again, he would be thrusting against his own turbo trajectory)
But yeah, the way I saw it, was if the guy tried to use none turbo thust in any direction it would slow him down, not speed him up, and he would have to be a damn excellent pilot to line up on a 180 spin on the exact same reversed-axis in a 3d universe, no matter what control system you have :P (plus him turning to aim would also slow him down, again, he would be thrusting against his own turbo trajectory)
Or we could have different ships behave differently... One type with a drag-reduction-drive that would let you coast at turbo speeds after an expensive burn, and one with the conventional turbo drive.
Thanks for the response, everyone... (especially momerath! ;D)
Spellcast and Cunjo have got it right... the way I pictured it at least.
I didn't really want to bring up the topic of "running" since this post isn't about making running more difficult (I can think of a dozen better ways to do that *cough*warptimer*cough). This post is about changing the nature of combat at turbo speeds, which momerath points out is no trivial matter.
I could be wrong of course, but I think that my suggestion would actually change the nature of running as we know it entirely. The "running" part would be over in 5 seconds, and then it would be back to combat in another frame of reference. The limits on maneuvering and on turbo would serve to keep the combatants engaged. If you wanted to escape you would *have* to fight your pursuer. Simply turning tail and coasting for your life would mean certain death.
You would be able to use energy weapons in the chase, including the rail gun, without losing your momentum so I think running as we call it would actually be a lot more difficult. Of course the fleeing pilot has the ability to fire back, so starfisher brings up a good point in that the person initiating the turbo burn may always get the drop on any pursuers. I think the only way to tell will be through testing, but I suspect that difference in top speeds will play a big role in determining who has more available momentum that can be wasted in maneuvering... meaning a faster ship would always hold the upper hand in overtaking a slower ship, and in escaping from one, (but not necessarily in defeating one... think Zero vs Mustang).
Warping out of the sector is another matter entirely... perhaps in addition to the 25% energy it would also require a full stop in motion, making actually leaving the sector with enemies anywhere in the vicinity a risky endeavor.
Again, this isn't a trivial suggestion... but after reading through the description of the battle of aeron's ice field I just can't stop imagining squaring off against an enemy fighter as the two ships scream alongside each other through ice and debris, exchanging gauss fire as they skate past gaps in the asteroid field... less skilled pilots exploding against the rocks when they try to follow...
I think this type of gameplay can be made to work under the current physics engine with a few modifications to turbo and to friction without giving runners an unfair advantage (again, this thread isn't about stopping running) or breaking combat... the suggestion is intended to change turbo from something that effectively ends combat to something that takes combat to a different frame of reference, upping the stakes.
Spellcast and Cunjo have got it right... the way I pictured it at least.
I didn't really want to bring up the topic of "running" since this post isn't about making running more difficult (I can think of a dozen better ways to do that *cough*warptimer*cough). This post is about changing the nature of combat at turbo speeds, which momerath points out is no trivial matter.
I could be wrong of course, but I think that my suggestion would actually change the nature of running as we know it entirely. The "running" part would be over in 5 seconds, and then it would be back to combat in another frame of reference. The limits on maneuvering and on turbo would serve to keep the combatants engaged. If you wanted to escape you would *have* to fight your pursuer. Simply turning tail and coasting for your life would mean certain death.
You would be able to use energy weapons in the chase, including the rail gun, without losing your momentum so I think running as we call it would actually be a lot more difficult. Of course the fleeing pilot has the ability to fire back, so starfisher brings up a good point in that the person initiating the turbo burn may always get the drop on any pursuers. I think the only way to tell will be through testing, but I suspect that difference in top speeds will play a big role in determining who has more available momentum that can be wasted in maneuvering... meaning a faster ship would always hold the upper hand in overtaking a slower ship, and in escaping from one, (but not necessarily in defeating one... think Zero vs Mustang).
Warping out of the sector is another matter entirely... perhaps in addition to the 25% energy it would also require a full stop in motion, making actually leaving the sector with enemies anywhere in the vicinity a risky endeavor.
Again, this isn't a trivial suggestion... but after reading through the description of the battle of aeron's ice field I just can't stop imagining squaring off against an enemy fighter as the two ships scream alongside each other through ice and debris, exchanging gauss fire as they skate past gaps in the asteroid field... less skilled pilots exploding against the rocks when they try to follow...
I think this type of gameplay can be made to work under the current physics engine with a few modifications to turbo and to friction without giving runners an unfair advantage (again, this thread isn't about stopping running) or breaking combat... the suggestion is intended to change turbo from something that effectively ends combat to something that takes combat to a different frame of reference, upping the stakes.