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Fun Per Man Hour, eh?
I am skeptical that what the devs are currently focusing on is actually going to bring much enjoyment to the community. Yes, it will make the game more dynamic, and open up many new possibilities for gameplay. However, there are many other things that would bring the player base much more enjoyment, both in the long run, as well as at the time of release. Yes, the Deliverator will be a cool feature, and yes, new missions based on what is actually happening in the universe will be a great addition. However, other things, such as Equipment ports, and Engine types, among other ship features would give the game a new breath of life. How long has it been since we got a new ship, or new features to use with our ships? Last I recall, was the release of the ‘moth. If I had to pick between the Deliverator or the implementation of an Equipment port, I would much rather see something that would impact my playing. I don’t care about bots very much, I’ve already spent hours upon hours botting, and bots will remain bots. They will never be as challenging or as interesting as a human opponent. Thus, I would much rather see things that would affect that get more attention than bots.
One of the jokes that I share with an ex-guildmate involves the Leviathan, and how it is planned for it to ‘wiggle’. We both see this activity as a waste of effort. Wiggling bots don’t add to immersion. It makes it look goofy. I can live with a ‘bug’ motif for the Hive, but nobody said that the Hive had to be just like an anthill, right down to the movement of the bots. I understand that the devs are working hard, but I simply don’t understand some of the hype surrounding some of these new ‘features’. If the development for the ‘wiggling’ of the bots would include ships with animated clamps in docking and undocking animations, that’s fine by me. However, again, Equipment port, Derelict stations, or any number of the suggestions on the boards, versus wiggling bots? I think my choice is clear.
So, I basically want to see more options for the players, rather than seeing a more dynamic universe. Being able to kill off the hive will be nice, but I don’t really see fighting bots, which are overpowered to make up for their lack of intelligence as exciting or fun. The Dev’s recent emphasis on bots has even made me wonder if the devs intend for us to all play nice with one another, and only go after the bots. After all, the bots won’t complain if you shoot them. And, with the Deliverator, the bots will almost be like substitutes to humans! They could even auto-hail with a pre-programmed complaint about backrolling when you beat them!
I respect the dev’s abilities, and I know I don’t possess the programming abilities to hope to make something like VO. However, they seem to have been neglecting the players, in favor of making the universe more realistic through their programming.
All I’m asking for, is a bit of attention to the player’s available options, rather than making the game more fun ‘for the bots’. The recent crafting thread is a sign that the Developers are paying attention to what the players need, but I’m wondering how truly difficult it is to pop a few abandoned roid-stations in (in prominent places), preferably by one of the Sedina-Odia or Sedina-Latos wormholes (on either side, as long as it’s prominent). Really. Give us some new toys to play with and/or fly around.
I am skeptical that what the devs are currently focusing on is actually going to bring much enjoyment to the community. Yes, it will make the game more dynamic, and open up many new possibilities for gameplay. However, there are many other things that would bring the player base much more enjoyment, both in the long run, as well as at the time of release. Yes, the Deliverator will be a cool feature, and yes, new missions based on what is actually happening in the universe will be a great addition. However, other things, such as Equipment ports, and Engine types, among other ship features would give the game a new breath of life. How long has it been since we got a new ship, or new features to use with our ships? Last I recall, was the release of the ‘moth. If I had to pick between the Deliverator or the implementation of an Equipment port, I would much rather see something that would impact my playing. I don’t care about bots very much, I’ve already spent hours upon hours botting, and bots will remain bots. They will never be as challenging or as interesting as a human opponent. Thus, I would much rather see things that would affect that get more attention than bots.
One of the jokes that I share with an ex-guildmate involves the Leviathan, and how it is planned for it to ‘wiggle’. We both see this activity as a waste of effort. Wiggling bots don’t add to immersion. It makes it look goofy. I can live with a ‘bug’ motif for the Hive, but nobody said that the Hive had to be just like an anthill, right down to the movement of the bots. I understand that the devs are working hard, but I simply don’t understand some of the hype surrounding some of these new ‘features’. If the development for the ‘wiggling’ of the bots would include ships with animated clamps in docking and undocking animations, that’s fine by me. However, again, Equipment port, Derelict stations, or any number of the suggestions on the boards, versus wiggling bots? I think my choice is clear.
So, I basically want to see more options for the players, rather than seeing a more dynamic universe. Being able to kill off the hive will be nice, but I don’t really see fighting bots, which are overpowered to make up for their lack of intelligence as exciting or fun. The Dev’s recent emphasis on bots has even made me wonder if the devs intend for us to all play nice with one another, and only go after the bots. After all, the bots won’t complain if you shoot them. And, with the Deliverator, the bots will almost be like substitutes to humans! They could even auto-hail with a pre-programmed complaint about backrolling when you beat them!
I respect the dev’s abilities, and I know I don’t possess the programming abilities to hope to make something like VO. However, they seem to have been neglecting the players, in favor of making the universe more realistic through their programming.
All I’m asking for, is a bit of attention to the player’s available options, rather than making the game more fun ‘for the bots’. The recent crafting thread is a sign that the Developers are paying attention to what the players need, but I’m wondering how truly difficult it is to pop a few abandoned roid-stations in (in prominent places), preferably by one of the Sedina-Odia or Sedina-Latos wormholes (on either side, as long as it’s prominent). Really. Give us some new toys to play with and/or fly around.
We aren't spending any time trying to make it 'wiggle', so don't lose sleep over that.
The recent emphasis on bots is to widen the game's audience to those who -want- to play nice with one another and unite against bots. There are, after all, more players in that camp (in the MMO market in general, I'm saying - hey, look at mudogamba's post) than players who want only PvP, or PvP at all.
The idea here isn't for smarter "bots" per se, it's for NPCs, which are pretty essential for a lot of RP/mission things. And the new interface stuff Ray's working on is pretty damn essential for you to control capital ships and manage your own stations and whatever other large-scale things you might like to do. So I don't think we're wasting our time here.
The "equipment ports" thing will take far longer to design than to implement, so I can't really speak to that.
The recent emphasis on bots is to widen the game's audience to those who -want- to play nice with one another and unite against bots. There are, after all, more players in that camp (in the MMO market in general, I'm saying - hey, look at mudogamba's post) than players who want only PvP, or PvP at all.
The idea here isn't for smarter "bots" per se, it's for NPCs, which are pretty essential for a lot of RP/mission things. And the new interface stuff Ray's working on is pretty damn essential for you to control capital ships and manage your own stations and whatever other large-scale things you might like to do. So I don't think we're wasting our time here.
The "equipment ports" thing will take far longer to design than to implement, so I can't really speak to that.
I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time Harry.
Yes, an update with some immediate additions to the game will give it a breath of fresh air, and for a time make the game more interesting but in the end, like all new toys, it too will get thrown in the box with the rest. And as I understand it, the devs are in the process of developing "tools" that will make creating new content faster. Unfortunately that takes time.
The Leviathan wiggling is pure eyecandy, no one can contest that. There is no reason for it to do so, unless like you said, something is attaching or detaching and that's not what was planned. But, eyecandy is good to have too. Who wants to look at low poly art with no flare when there are other games with much better artwork. Again, this is somethign that should be added after the core elements are working and is NOT a priority.
Since the devs have still not updated the wiki design site with any sort of real laundry list that they are currently working on we can only go by hearsay and rumor, and the one that I've been hearing most lately is that they are rapping up the UI for cap ships, which to me would be a great addition to the game. My only complaint, and it's not a huge one, is that once they had finished work on the mission editor, that they actually took a day or two and add a few new missions, other then the two "leaks" from the test server. After all, wasn't it suppost to make adding mission quick and simple. Perhaps get the guides involved and a bit more proactive and have them generate a few missions.
Adding a new port to the ships will introduce a balancing issue and that will just lead us down another avenue of balance, and rebalance and rebalance updates and will just delay the other more important work that is being worked on. But at some point it would be nice to have.
In conclusion, things I see that would "give a new breath of Life" to the game would be (in order):
1. New Missions
2. Player Owned Cap Ships
3. Points of Interest (Derelict Stations, Large perferated roids, Derelict Cap Ships, etc.)
4. Faction System Redone
5. Crafting
6. Player/Guild controlable components/stations
Yes, an update with some immediate additions to the game will give it a breath of fresh air, and for a time make the game more interesting but in the end, like all new toys, it too will get thrown in the box with the rest. And as I understand it, the devs are in the process of developing "tools" that will make creating new content faster. Unfortunately that takes time.
The Leviathan wiggling is pure eyecandy, no one can contest that. There is no reason for it to do so, unless like you said, something is attaching or detaching and that's not what was planned. But, eyecandy is good to have too. Who wants to look at low poly art with no flare when there are other games with much better artwork. Again, this is somethign that should be added after the core elements are working and is NOT a priority.
Since the devs have still not updated the wiki design site with any sort of real laundry list that they are currently working on we can only go by hearsay and rumor, and the one that I've been hearing most lately is that they are rapping up the UI for cap ships, which to me would be a great addition to the game. My only complaint, and it's not a huge one, is that once they had finished work on the mission editor, that they actually took a day or two and add a few new missions, other then the two "leaks" from the test server. After all, wasn't it suppost to make adding mission quick and simple. Perhaps get the guides involved and a bit more proactive and have them generate a few missions.
Adding a new port to the ships will introduce a balancing issue and that will just lead us down another avenue of balance, and rebalance and rebalance updates and will just delay the other more important work that is being worked on. But at some point it would be nice to have.
In conclusion, things I see that would "give a new breath of Life" to the game would be (in order):
1. New Missions
2. Player Owned Cap Ships
3. Points of Interest (Derelict Stations, Large perferated roids, Derelict Cap Ships, etc.)
4. Faction System Redone
5. Crafting
6. Player/Guild controlable components/stations
Re: a1k0n
Granted, some people want to group up against bots. Granted, that NPCs will play an important part, especially once missions start rolling out. Granted, player-controlled capital ships and stations is important, and whatnot.
As for the Equipment port, how long has that been asked for? Years? I would have thought that Guild would have some concept of what they wanted to do for that. As for more interesting combatant arenas, how difficult would it be to pop in an abandoned station or two every month or so, or design a cool asteroid field pattern in a well-visited area? Even automated Capital ship runs through grey space.
Granted, some people want to group up against bots. Granted, that NPCs will play an important part, especially once missions start rolling out. Granted, player-controlled capital ships and stations is important, and whatnot.
As for the Equipment port, how long has that been asked for? Years? I would have thought that Guild would have some concept of what they wanted to do for that. As for more interesting combatant arenas, how difficult would it be to pop in an abandoned station or two every month or so, or design a cool asteroid field pattern in a well-visited area? Even automated Capital ship runs through grey space.
>As for the Equipment port, how long has that been asked for? Years?
that should give you some idea of how complicated it is to do. This sin't some little flag, or artwork change, Balance issues alone would take months of complaining and yelling about what's broken and why. also it doesn't add anything that can't be simualted with weapon and battery ports.
>As for more interesting combatant arenas, how difficult would it be to
>pop in an abandoned station or two every month or so, or design a
>cool asteroid field pattern in a well-visited area?
if you wnt cool asteroid paterns go explore. there are tons of them already in-game, as for abandoned stations, that requires artwork, and realy wouldn't make that big an inpact in the game. you'd get bored of the deralect station in a couple days.
>Even automated Capital ship runs through grey space.
um, well let's see this wouldn't by any chance require the new NPC AI or the new UI for controling cap. ships? oh right this is exactly the sort of thing those are for, my bad.
that should give you some idea of how complicated it is to do. This sin't some little flag, or artwork change, Balance issues alone would take months of complaining and yelling about what's broken and why. also it doesn't add anything that can't be simualted with weapon and battery ports.
>As for more interesting combatant arenas, how difficult would it be to
>pop in an abandoned station or two every month or so, or design a
>cool asteroid field pattern in a well-visited area?
if you wnt cool asteroid paterns go explore. there are tons of them already in-game, as for abandoned stations, that requires artwork, and realy wouldn't make that big an inpact in the game. you'd get bored of the deralect station in a couple days.
>Even automated Capital ship runs through grey space.
um, well let's see this wouldn't by any chance require the new NPC AI or the new UI for controling cap. ships? oh right this is exactly the sort of thing those are for, my bad.
¬_¬™
that should give you some idea of how complicated it is to do. This sin't some little flag, or artwork change, Balance issues alone would take months of complaining and yelling about what's broken and why. also it doesn't add anything that can't be simualted with weapon and battery ports.
Then perhaps the devs should express interest, like in the crafting thread, in having the players come up with ideas, and fashion them into a workable system?
if you wnt cool asteroid paterns go explore. there are tons of them already in-game, as for abandoned stations, that requires artwork, and realy wouldn't make that big an inpact in the game. you'd get bored of the deralect station in a couple days.
Noo...I want complex asteroid patterns to *fight* in, and nobody's going to go fight in the random asteroid sectors out there, unless I very carefully lead them there. Besides, I can deal with abandoned stations *not* having new artwork, for the time being. Of course, eventually I would expect there to be separate artwork for them, but it's more *having* them that counts.
um, well let's see this wouldn't by any chance require the new NPC AI or the new UI for controling cap. ships? oh right this is exactly the sort of thing those are for, my bad.
No, I'm not talking User-controlled. Something automated with cron jobs or something. I'd imagine that that would be pretty simple.
Edit: In light of the rest of the thread giving a 'list' of tasks that they would rather see first...
1. Points of Interest (Derelict Stations, etc)
2. Faction system patch/fix
3. New Missions
4. Economy & Crafting
5. Player ownable capital ships
6. Guild ownable stations
(last 3 are debatable, it's too far away, and I'd like to see what progresses first.)
that should give you some idea of how complicated it is to do. This sin't some little flag, or artwork change, Balance issues alone would take months of complaining and yelling about what's broken and why. also it doesn't add anything that can't be simualted with weapon and battery ports.
Then perhaps the devs should express interest, like in the crafting thread, in having the players come up with ideas, and fashion them into a workable system?
if you wnt cool asteroid paterns go explore. there are tons of them already in-game, as for abandoned stations, that requires artwork, and realy wouldn't make that big an inpact in the game. you'd get bored of the deralect station in a couple days.
Noo...I want complex asteroid patterns to *fight* in, and nobody's going to go fight in the random asteroid sectors out there, unless I very carefully lead them there. Besides, I can deal with abandoned stations *not* having new artwork, for the time being. Of course, eventually I would expect there to be separate artwork for them, but it's more *having* them that counts.
um, well let's see this wouldn't by any chance require the new NPC AI or the new UI for controling cap. ships? oh right this is exactly the sort of thing those are for, my bad.
No, I'm not talking User-controlled. Something automated with cron jobs or something. I'd imagine that that would be pretty simple.
Edit: In light of the rest of the thread giving a 'list' of tasks that they would rather see first...
1. Points of Interest (Derelict Stations, etc)
2. Faction system patch/fix
3. New Missions
4. Economy & Crafting
5. Player ownable capital ships
6. Guild ownable stations
(last 3 are debatable, it's too far away, and I'd like to see what progresses first.)
who gives a damn about anything other than the equipment port?
I mean what fun is the game without it? totaly boring
WE NEED THE EQUIPMENT PORT
I mean what fun is the game without it? totaly boring
WE NEED THE EQUIPMENT PORT
I'd like to see things grow immediately as well, Professor, but, well, Hrm.
Guild software is proceeding down a logical path towards their goal. Next on the list is apparently UI and economics, which I can see taking a while.
I think it will really make things more realistic. Especially if they implement some kind of Station A.I. and/or hook the NPC's and missions into the economy.
Things like an equipment slot, etc would be great. However I think that the devs are paranoid about "unbalancing" the ships again. This has always mystified me.
Just put some new ships ingame, let the game be unbalanced! Worry about evening things out later, that's what us paying beta-testers are for! Better ships are SUPPOSED to be BETTER! Gah!
And, having some cool "playgrounds" should be simple to implement. You're right.
Oh, and my order for john's list would be:
1. Points of Interest (Derelict Stations, Large perferated roids, Derelict Cap Ships, etc.) - easiest to just pop in there to shut Seldon up >:)
2. Faction System Redone - again, should be an easy fix. Can't be both positive Serco + Itani. Set up a system of checks and balances, with diametrically opposed factions.
3. New Missions - test out the new system which is in development now, supposedly. Will bring a great deal of depth to the universe, especially once #4 and #5, below, are implemented.
4. A working "real" economy - will be the basis for everything else that comes afterward. NPC cargo affects supply/demand, prices fluctuate across the galaxy, etc.
5. Crafting - builds on the economy, allows for different quality items and possibly "new" items based on technology tree / licences/ etc.
6. Player/Guild controlable components/stations - will supplement/replace the necessary "rental spaces" within existing stations for crafting and economics
7. Player Owned Cap Ships - Once players and guilds have stations to dock them in
Guild software is proceeding down a logical path towards their goal. Next on the list is apparently UI and economics, which I can see taking a while.
I think it will really make things more realistic. Especially if they implement some kind of Station A.I. and/or hook the NPC's and missions into the economy.
Things like an equipment slot, etc would be great. However I think that the devs are paranoid about "unbalancing" the ships again. This has always mystified me.
Just put some new ships ingame, let the game be unbalanced! Worry about evening things out later, that's what us paying beta-testers are for! Better ships are SUPPOSED to be BETTER! Gah!
And, having some cool "playgrounds" should be simple to implement. You're right.
Oh, and my order for john's list would be:
1. Points of Interest (Derelict Stations, Large perferated roids, Derelict Cap Ships, etc.) - easiest to just pop in there to shut Seldon up >:)
2. Faction System Redone - again, should be an easy fix. Can't be both positive Serco + Itani. Set up a system of checks and balances, with diametrically opposed factions.
3. New Missions - test out the new system which is in development now, supposedly. Will bring a great deal of depth to the universe, especially once #4 and #5, below, are implemented.
4. A working "real" economy - will be the basis for everything else that comes afterward. NPC cargo affects supply/demand, prices fluctuate across the galaxy, etc.
5. Crafting - builds on the economy, allows for different quality items and possibly "new" items based on technology tree / licences/ etc.
6. Player/Guild controlable components/stations - will supplement/replace the necessary "rental spaces" within existing stations for crafting and economics
7. Player Owned Cap Ships - Once players and guilds have stations to dock them in
From what I have heard the UI is well under way, and I think the economic revamp has only been talked about. AI for bots is being added. (The intelligence part is currently lacking.) Ships can't get much bigger than the Behemoth without a new form of docking and a flight interface to make it not a nuisance to fly.
A simple band aid solution to things like equipment slots and new ships will solve one problem and bring up many balance problems with people complaining about xyz ship being unbeatable.
Things like the AI and UI are being remade because they need to be, the AI is known for being easily fooled and the UI needs to be redone to accommodate for bigger ships.
A simple band aid solution to things like equipment slots and new ships will solve one problem and bring up many balance problems with people complaining about xyz ship being unbeatable.
Things like the AI and UI are being remade because they need to be, the AI is known for being easily fooled and the UI needs to be redone to accommodate for bigger ships.
I still don't understand why larger ships need to "dock". Why can't they simply park out side near the entrance to the dock, OR, if it's in the case of a capital ship, should use ferry atlases to bring goods and players to and from the station since it is almost a floating station. Ships now don't even need to "dock" they just need to be close and then hit enter anyway.
A fellow player mentioned an idea about capital ship docking to me the other day, and I thought that it made a lot of sense for the short term.
(EDIT: And there he is right now...)
Why does the capital ship have to dock at all? When it needs cargo or weaponry, just send out some smaller ships to shuttle things back and forth. Since at this point there's no real interface for unloading cargo/weps from a shuttle onto a cap ship, why not just give it a modified version of the station menu? It would work until a more permanent solution could be found.
As for the repair issue, a ship of the cap ship's size shouldn't be able to dock and repair instantly anyway. The Hive already has repair beams, so why shouldn't the stations? Just send a message to the station from the cap ship, and watch as little NPC drones come out and repair your battle scars.
Of course, these are only temporary solutions, but they would hold up until new station docking procedures could be released.
(EDIT: And there he is right now...)
Why does the capital ship have to dock at all? When it needs cargo or weaponry, just send out some smaller ships to shuttle things back and forth. Since at this point there's no real interface for unloading cargo/weps from a shuttle onto a cap ship, why not just give it a modified version of the station menu? It would work until a more permanent solution could be found.
As for the repair issue, a ship of the cap ship's size shouldn't be able to dock and repair instantly anyway. The Hive already has repair beams, so why shouldn't the stations? Just send a message to the station from the cap ship, and watch as little NPC drones come out and repair your battle scars.
Of course, these are only temporary solutions, but they would hold up until new station docking procedures could be released.
Capships wouldn't need to dock, agreed. Just park it near a station, and it orbits or holds position.
(But are you willing to park your new capship out on "the street" in Sedina? Someone'e liable to swipe your radio...)
(But are you willing to park your new capship out on "the street" in Sedina? Someone'e liable to swipe your radio...)
people want to play with people against people. That is why internet games are so popular. In games like counter-strike, you split in to teams not to destroy bots, but other players. That is why the game is so popular. The fight is always human and dynamic.
In World of Warcraft you form alliances with human players and mass armies against other human players. That is why the game is so popular. No fight is more dynamic than one against another human. That is why those games are so popular.
I guess it boils down to this. Do you want this game to become a mainstream game, or just a niche game of the loyal vendettanites?
Uniting against bots will always become boring and the AI will need upgrades more frequently than 3 DEVs could ever manage... if the game is to remain dynamic, the focus must be applied to human to human interaction.
In World of Warcraft you form alliances with human players and mass armies against other human players. That is why the game is so popular. No fight is more dynamic than one against another human. That is why those games are so popular.
I guess it boils down to this. Do you want this game to become a mainstream game, or just a niche game of the loyal vendettanites?
Uniting against bots will always become boring and the AI will need upgrades more frequently than 3 DEVs could ever manage... if the game is to remain dynamic, the focus must be applied to human to human interaction.
Well, because it's trendy, here's my wish list in order of preferences:
1) guild banking
2) user frigate
3) equipment port
4) Equipment/armament dropping in space (like cargo): a whole new economy!
(perhaps w/ restriction like nation-specific-issued Neut3s)
5) guild cap ship
6) Web board access from station menus (I'd ratter stay current in-game than out-of-game)
7) Pizza fridays for all.
1) guild banking
2) user frigate
3) equipment port
4) Equipment/armament dropping in space (like cargo): a whole new economy!
(perhaps w/ restriction like nation-specific-issued Neut3s)
5) guild cap ship
6) Web board access from station menus (I'd ratter stay current in-game than out-of-game)
7) Pizza fridays for all.
In regards to the Equipment Port:
I think that was a concoction of Celebrim's, and one that has gotten a lot of support, but not necessarily something I ever agreed with. I do agree, by all means, with having a wider breadth of interesting and useful Equipment (a-la Celebrim's "ever growing toys thread", which I've been re-reading recently). I never condoned the idea of having a separate port for non-weapons systems. The whole "port" idea, from the very beginning, was to offer a completely generic way to attach equipment that was categorized into "large" and "small". I don't think it's necessary to expand beyond that. Think about it, if we added a lightweight small-port stealth module, that would suddenly give a lot of benefit to existing three-small ship configs. Etc etc.
The real issue here isn't the creation of a vague port system, but rather giving addons that do interesting things. And that, I'm afraid, can be a non-trivial task. Some of the equipment concepts require some special case client code, yadda yadda. Additionally, if we want the addon to really do anything New and Interesting (like a particular kind of scanner, or new type of radar, or whatever) it involves new interfaces.. which are, at present, a complete pain in the ass to create. The interface system is a mess.
In Regards To Everything Else:
Which brings us back to our current activity. I have people working on the Major Flaws in the game (development & architecture flaws, not gameplay or "user visible" constructs) that we believe will let us most rapidly let us add the features that people *are* requesting. The User Interface stuff is really not about making things look snazzy, or even more intuitive to newbies (an added benefit), but rather giving *us* the ability to do interface work without gigantic amounts of labor (because 17 stupid legacy things are accidentally broken, and then require debugging, and blah blah). The User Interface stuff is applicable to a massive amount of desired features.. how users pick up items in space, how users can trade with each other, how users can interact with NPCs, allowing people to navigate and control capital ships or make use of NPC wingmen, creation of different types of new addons / scanners / sub gameplay, letting people make notes about sectors or customized navigational data, etc etc. Anything that could possibly have any sort of graphical interface whatsoever, or make use of an existing interface in a new way.
Andy is currently working on making bots Not Dumb. This isn't to make them scary opponents, but rather to do a tremendous number of basic AI tasks that I've wanted to have for years. Ie.. traders going to and fro and behaving in interesting ways, reacting to piracy or any other change. And not just sitting there, ramming into a station for 12 hours, because they're confused about how to dock or undock. He's made a lot of headway on this, and I do consider this pretty important as well. The amount of "stuff" that can be done with more functional AI is pretty tremedous, as far as creating a more "living, breathing" universe. It really isn't about "making more stuff to shoot" per se, the scope is a lot broader.
Michael is working on missions and hive-related stuff. I think you'll be seeing the outcome of some of his labors pretty soon here.
Yes, we probably should have had more interesting addons and equipment long ago. And fixed the economy, and the faction system, and so on. There are new ships in the works, but I'm not comfortable discussing it until I have some specifics to show and tell.
Unfortunately, a lot of the things that non-developers believe might be "simple" actually aren't.. whether due to the inherent nature of implementing that sort of feature, or because specifically some parts of our game engine are a bit old and inelegant, and contribute to making some seemingly-simple things more complex. So, we try and fix what we think will have the most impact and let us do the most to change the game in X amount of time. Sometimes this ends up being new major subsystems or massive revamps of existing code to make it expandable and usable again. The Deliverator, for instance, is not a "feature". It's a whole gigantic aspect of how we Make The Game Do Stuff. It isn't about the Hive, or ai, or new missions (all of which are being done using it, but none of which "define it" it all).. it's an extremely broad and powerful system that lets us implement more (and more interesting) features in less time. It's difficult to articulate the scope of that sort of "feature addition" or development. The only people who really get it are experienced software developers, who nod and go "yeah, rule-based lisp subsystem, cool".
I have definitely wanted more points of interest in the game for quite some time. You can see all the points in the storyline that I created for that exact purpose.. I wanted to tie things together. Actually have an "aeron's icefield" with a floating plaque to mark the memory of an ancient battle, or Goliath Cannon that face out from Itani space. But even things as trivial as "derilect stations" are art assets that take time to do.. even using our existing models and textures as a base. Even hand-designing sectors from existing objects takes time (speaking as the person who hand-made almost the entire Alpha universe).. it's something I really want, but haven't had time to do. I personally am the only artist we have left (and most don't even know I was one ;), and I prioritize most of my tasks based on what other people need to do what they're doing. For instance, right now I need to finish up the new UI graphics for Ray, and write up a bunch of mission design stuff for Michael. If I don't prioritize that way, then other people end up wheelspinning on their tasks, which is a waste of resources.
So, we do the best we can with what we have, we listen to you guys on what you want and what you think of what we're doing.. and then we make decisions. A lot of the time the decisions are based on factors that none of the userbase is aware of or understands, like game engine architecture or whatever else. When that happens, you have to take a lot on faith, which I know can be frustrating when we don't create any new ship addons for.. years.
(P.S.: The whole thing on making the Leviathan "wiggle" is kind of amusing, in a rumormill sense. Certain objects in the game were designed so that, someday, we could create and use an Inverse Kinematics system with them to create realtime chains of physical objects. Like, for instance, the Marauder with a whole bunch of cargo crates behind it, or the Leviathan with its many segments. I think Michael at one point posted that we were going to do IK at Some Point, and he is correct, but it is not development that we have even started to really.. think about, beyond the fact that our art assets were designed with the "future" in mind. So no, everything we're working on right now has major ramifications for short-term gameplay [ie, next couple of months]. IK would make.. neat.. wiggling. And not really impact much else. It falls into the same category with a lot of other "neat" features that we'd like to do, but don't possibly have time to do right now).
I think that was a concoction of Celebrim's, and one that has gotten a lot of support, but not necessarily something I ever agreed with. I do agree, by all means, with having a wider breadth of interesting and useful Equipment (a-la Celebrim's "ever growing toys thread", which I've been re-reading recently). I never condoned the idea of having a separate port for non-weapons systems. The whole "port" idea, from the very beginning, was to offer a completely generic way to attach equipment that was categorized into "large" and "small". I don't think it's necessary to expand beyond that. Think about it, if we added a lightweight small-port stealth module, that would suddenly give a lot of benefit to existing three-small ship configs. Etc etc.
The real issue here isn't the creation of a vague port system, but rather giving addons that do interesting things. And that, I'm afraid, can be a non-trivial task. Some of the equipment concepts require some special case client code, yadda yadda. Additionally, if we want the addon to really do anything New and Interesting (like a particular kind of scanner, or new type of radar, or whatever) it involves new interfaces.. which are, at present, a complete pain in the ass to create. The interface system is a mess.
In Regards To Everything Else:
Which brings us back to our current activity. I have people working on the Major Flaws in the game (development & architecture flaws, not gameplay or "user visible" constructs) that we believe will let us most rapidly let us add the features that people *are* requesting. The User Interface stuff is really not about making things look snazzy, or even more intuitive to newbies (an added benefit), but rather giving *us* the ability to do interface work without gigantic amounts of labor (because 17 stupid legacy things are accidentally broken, and then require debugging, and blah blah). The User Interface stuff is applicable to a massive amount of desired features.. how users pick up items in space, how users can trade with each other, how users can interact with NPCs, allowing people to navigate and control capital ships or make use of NPC wingmen, creation of different types of new addons / scanners / sub gameplay, letting people make notes about sectors or customized navigational data, etc etc. Anything that could possibly have any sort of graphical interface whatsoever, or make use of an existing interface in a new way.
Andy is currently working on making bots Not Dumb. This isn't to make them scary opponents, but rather to do a tremendous number of basic AI tasks that I've wanted to have for years. Ie.. traders going to and fro and behaving in interesting ways, reacting to piracy or any other change. And not just sitting there, ramming into a station for 12 hours, because they're confused about how to dock or undock. He's made a lot of headway on this, and I do consider this pretty important as well. The amount of "stuff" that can be done with more functional AI is pretty tremedous, as far as creating a more "living, breathing" universe. It really isn't about "making more stuff to shoot" per se, the scope is a lot broader.
Michael is working on missions and hive-related stuff. I think you'll be seeing the outcome of some of his labors pretty soon here.
Yes, we probably should have had more interesting addons and equipment long ago. And fixed the economy, and the faction system, and so on. There are new ships in the works, but I'm not comfortable discussing it until I have some specifics to show and tell.
Unfortunately, a lot of the things that non-developers believe might be "simple" actually aren't.. whether due to the inherent nature of implementing that sort of feature, or because specifically some parts of our game engine are a bit old and inelegant, and contribute to making some seemingly-simple things more complex. So, we try and fix what we think will have the most impact and let us do the most to change the game in X amount of time. Sometimes this ends up being new major subsystems or massive revamps of existing code to make it expandable and usable again. The Deliverator, for instance, is not a "feature". It's a whole gigantic aspect of how we Make The Game Do Stuff. It isn't about the Hive, or ai, or new missions (all of which are being done using it, but none of which "define it" it all).. it's an extremely broad and powerful system that lets us implement more (and more interesting) features in less time. It's difficult to articulate the scope of that sort of "feature addition" or development. The only people who really get it are experienced software developers, who nod and go "yeah, rule-based lisp subsystem, cool".
I have definitely wanted more points of interest in the game for quite some time. You can see all the points in the storyline that I created for that exact purpose.. I wanted to tie things together. Actually have an "aeron's icefield" with a floating plaque to mark the memory of an ancient battle, or Goliath Cannon that face out from Itani space. But even things as trivial as "derilect stations" are art assets that take time to do.. even using our existing models and textures as a base. Even hand-designing sectors from existing objects takes time (speaking as the person who hand-made almost the entire Alpha universe).. it's something I really want, but haven't had time to do. I personally am the only artist we have left (and most don't even know I was one ;), and I prioritize most of my tasks based on what other people need to do what they're doing. For instance, right now I need to finish up the new UI graphics for Ray, and write up a bunch of mission design stuff for Michael. If I don't prioritize that way, then other people end up wheelspinning on their tasks, which is a waste of resources.
So, we do the best we can with what we have, we listen to you guys on what you want and what you think of what we're doing.. and then we make decisions. A lot of the time the decisions are based on factors that none of the userbase is aware of or understands, like game engine architecture or whatever else. When that happens, you have to take a lot on faith, which I know can be frustrating when we don't create any new ship addons for.. years.
(P.S.: The whole thing on making the Leviathan "wiggle" is kind of amusing, in a rumormill sense. Certain objects in the game were designed so that, someday, we could create and use an Inverse Kinematics system with them to create realtime chains of physical objects. Like, for instance, the Marauder with a whole bunch of cargo crates behind it, or the Leviathan with its many segments. I think Michael at one point posted that we were going to do IK at Some Point, and he is correct, but it is not development that we have even started to really.. think about, beyond the fact that our art assets were designed with the "future" in mind. So no, everything we're working on right now has major ramifications for short-term gameplay [ie, next couple of months]. IK would make.. neat.. wiggling. And not really impact much else. It falls into the same category with a lot of other "neat" features that we'd like to do, but don't possibly have time to do right now).
mokay, there still seems to be some confusion as to why we're not seeing updates like we were used. now, I don't work for Guild, but I can try to give an idea of how I (speaking as a sysadmin and a software developer) see the current state of VO.
back when we got updates every tuesday, we'd get tweaks to the current game. we'd get minor stuff (even mining was minor in its own right, I'll get back to why), but we'd get updates.
somewhere along the road (around six months ago or so) it became pretty obvious to the devs that just tweaking what they had wasn't going to let them produce a lot of cool stuff, simply due to lack of infrastructure in the code to allow such changes to happen. this is by no means an original problem to run across.
as an example, we'd like to see stations grow and shrink as they get trade goods and wealth. I'm fairly certain Incarnate thinks this is pretty neato himself, but... to do this we need a working economy. with todays rigid economy (which worked okay for its time) you just can't use trade activity as a measure of much of anything. so, fix the economy! but, uhm, we don't have an AI to guide the traders to do that in a sane fashion. todays AI isn't overly bright, and if you're looking at the trade bots, calling it dumb isn't really rude. okay, so to fix the economy one really should fix the AI too. but, uhm, that also affects the bots that don't trade. and they need AI patches too so they're not horribly dull. right, okay, we rewamp the entire AI code... now, that in itself is a lot of work, even if the devs have an amazingly structured codebase where they can just unplug an AI module and toss in the new code in its place.
but, with a new AI, we'll get new bot action. how does this effect leveling? are bots harder? to hard? to easy? and as the trade bots get smarter, how does this effect the trade missions? hm, okay, we'll have to look at the mission system when we look at the AI. another dependency. another major cycle of testing...
so, we end up where we are today. we're effectivly going from something akin to Windows 98 to Windows NT. we're going from a certain set of tweaked parameters to a self-contained system that tweaks itself. it's a radical change behind the scenes and it will take time. even after it starts to creep into the game it'll take time to mature enough for all the *really* neat stuff to come along.
if I was going to complain about this, I'd complain about one thing and one thing only. when these changes started, a statement saying "We're going to have to do major changes behind the scenes to prepare for lots of neat stuff down the road, as such, the normal tweaking patches will slow down as we work on new core stuff." repeated until people got it, would have been a good idea. but, I'm fairly sure that the devs didn't start down this road because they didn't want changes to occure, I think they started on this road because they *want* changes to happen. they just didn't have the tools to make changes actually happen without turning to small hacks and tweaks of what we had.
so, that's my take on the matter.
that all being said, there are changes that might be possible to make while doing this work. the faction system being the primary one. I'll post an article about that sometime soon I hope.
back when we got updates every tuesday, we'd get tweaks to the current game. we'd get minor stuff (even mining was minor in its own right, I'll get back to why), but we'd get updates.
somewhere along the road (around six months ago or so) it became pretty obvious to the devs that just tweaking what they had wasn't going to let them produce a lot of cool stuff, simply due to lack of infrastructure in the code to allow such changes to happen. this is by no means an original problem to run across.
as an example, we'd like to see stations grow and shrink as they get trade goods and wealth. I'm fairly certain Incarnate thinks this is pretty neato himself, but... to do this we need a working economy. with todays rigid economy (which worked okay for its time) you just can't use trade activity as a measure of much of anything. so, fix the economy! but, uhm, we don't have an AI to guide the traders to do that in a sane fashion. todays AI isn't overly bright, and if you're looking at the trade bots, calling it dumb isn't really rude. okay, so to fix the economy one really should fix the AI too. but, uhm, that also affects the bots that don't trade. and they need AI patches too so they're not horribly dull. right, okay, we rewamp the entire AI code... now, that in itself is a lot of work, even if the devs have an amazingly structured codebase where they can just unplug an AI module and toss in the new code in its place.
but, with a new AI, we'll get new bot action. how does this effect leveling? are bots harder? to hard? to easy? and as the trade bots get smarter, how does this effect the trade missions? hm, okay, we'll have to look at the mission system when we look at the AI. another dependency. another major cycle of testing...
so, we end up where we are today. we're effectivly going from something akin to Windows 98 to Windows NT. we're going from a certain set of tweaked parameters to a self-contained system that tweaks itself. it's a radical change behind the scenes and it will take time. even after it starts to creep into the game it'll take time to mature enough for all the *really* neat stuff to come along.
if I was going to complain about this, I'd complain about one thing and one thing only. when these changes started, a statement saying "We're going to have to do major changes behind the scenes to prepare for lots of neat stuff down the road, as such, the normal tweaking patches will slow down as we work on new core stuff." repeated until people got it, would have been a good idea. but, I'm fairly sure that the devs didn't start down this road because they didn't want changes to occure, I think they started on this road because they *want* changes to happen. they just didn't have the tools to make changes actually happen without turning to small hacks and tweaks of what we had.
so, that's my take on the matter.
that all being said, there are changes that might be possible to make while doing this work. the faction system being the primary one. I'll post an article about that sometime soon I hope.
That's pretty much it, yes. Many people don't realize that the current game has literally evolved from Vendetta Test, which was simply a tech demo to show off Guild's proprietary universe engine. Some big game publisher was supposed to pay Guild lots of money and shower them with resources to make a real game (not Vendetta Test) using the engine. It was never made to be modular, and there were no tools to build features. Now they're doing things The Right Way.
And, the game has been playable essentially 24/7 since I began 3+ years ago. Amazing.
And, the game has been playable essentially 24/7 since I began 3+ years ago. Amazing.
That's what's always amazed me about this game. Okay, so occasionally my interest has strayed away from Vendetta, but every time I come back, it's still playable, and enough of my old skills still applied to the game that getting back into the swing of things was quite easy, even when jumping from 3 sectors to 9 sectors, to lots and lots of sectors.
"There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over." -- One of Murphy's Laws
I say let's Do It Right The First Time. Take your time and finish the work properly. Just do it before [BLAK] leaves again. (Will this be the 4th time?)
I say let's Do It Right The First Time. Take your time and finish the work properly. Just do it before [BLAK] leaves again. (Will this be the 4th time?)
Yeah, what LeberMac said... don't feel rushed, just do things the Right Way.
I'd rather wait a year for content that fits perfectly and makes a complete game than half-assed content every week.
So... don't mind us, just make the damn game the way you want. I can't believe how far VO has come... You guys are doing great!
edit: one thing that may help is some kind of 30-second weekly progress blurb, possibly in the devwiki?... doesn't matter if we won't have any clue what you're talking about, just helps to let us know you haven't forgotten us :) so we can say "oh, cool, rule driven lisp undersystem part 3 got written last week, don't know what that means but it sounds interesting" or "Andy's doing some research on AI." I realise this would be more than what most devs do, but it may help appease the masses. You all interact with us a lot already on various threads in the messageboards, at least it might help to keep these comments someplace where everyone can see them.
I'd rather wait a year for content that fits perfectly and makes a complete game than half-assed content every week.
So... don't mind us, just make the damn game the way you want. I can't believe how far VO has come... You guys are doing great!
edit: one thing that may help is some kind of 30-second weekly progress blurb, possibly in the devwiki?... doesn't matter if we won't have any clue what you're talking about, just helps to let us know you haven't forgotten us :) so we can say "oh, cool, rule driven lisp undersystem part 3 got written last week, don't know what that means but it sounds interesting" or "Andy's doing some research on AI." I realise this would be more than what most devs do, but it may help appease the masses. You all interact with us a lot already on various threads in the messageboards, at least it might help to keep these comments someplace where everyone can see them.