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Rails are fine as they are... Alamar has something like 500+ pks with rails, and (not that I'm anywhere near a rail master) I myself am a student of the way of the rail. They are the most elegant weapon in the game as far as I'm concerned, part of that is their unforgiving refire rate, narrow autoaim, and limited ammo. Don't take the skill out of rails!
That being said if energy weapons do get a boost in velocity (or damage) across the board, of course I'd like to see the same applied to rails.
And yes, leave the flares alone... given the choice I generally prefer rocket duels to energy duels.. they are just more interesting imho. 90% of the time energy-only duels fall into a barrel roll waltz where both pilots hold down the A and E keys, while spraying and praying.
That being said if energy weapons do get a boost in velocity (or damage) across the board, of course I'd like to see the same applied to rails.
And yes, leave the flares alone... given the choice I generally prefer rocket duels to energy duels.. they are just more interesting imho. 90% of the time energy-only duels fall into a barrel roll waltz where both pilots hold down the A and E keys, while spraying and praying.
rails are fine as they are. the only thing that should happen with them is that the autoaim they have should be fixed.
but, if energy weapons become faster, rails become a lot harder to use. there is a limit to how fast you can react, and without any option to spam, it gets harder and harder to fight fast energy weapons. the velocity difference between advanced rails and the rest doesn't yeild much of a difference, since rails are used at <250m anyway to have any hope of hitting anyone who cares to dodge.
so, uhm, don't touch the rails and don't up energy velocity any more that was done last time around. there *will* be a difference between 200m/s and 220m/s for an energy weapon, but for rails, the difference between 400m/s and 440m/s matters a whole lot less.
and good energy duels are rare, but that's a pilot thing, too many pilots just don't seem to want to try to fly well. I had a hoot fighting a lot of the old BLAKs with energy. not that I got many kills, but then again, why would I want a non-rail kill? =)
but, if energy weapons become faster, rails become a lot harder to use. there is a limit to how fast you can react, and without any option to spam, it gets harder and harder to fight fast energy weapons. the velocity difference between advanced rails and the rest doesn't yeild much of a difference, since rails are used at <250m anyway to have any hope of hitting anyone who cares to dodge.
so, uhm, don't touch the rails and don't up energy velocity any more that was done last time around. there *will* be a difference between 200m/s and 220m/s for an energy weapon, but for rails, the difference between 400m/s and 440m/s matters a whole lot less.
and good energy duels are rare, but that's a pilot thing, too many pilots just don't seem to want to try to fly well. I had a hoot fighting a lot of the old BLAKs with energy. not that I got many kills, but then again, why would I want a non-rail kill? =)
"and Kix, a noob with flares loses, because all they can get is iceflares... especially against a noob with energy, who never runs out of ammo."
I think you missed the point Cunjo. I have 900+ pks. You have 100+ pks. When I fought against your prom with an energy valk it was "VERY" close (the first time). It just takes too little skill to use a prom and flares. No offense but I could kick your butt with a prom and 2 flares but it takes me 10 minutes to wittle you down with energy...... and even then its very close.
"They take skill to use, especially against a good pilot (just like any other weapon, excepting perhaps swarms) You cannot win a fight against a neut cent or valk with flares alone, and they are already virtually useless as an exclusive weapon thanks to the new ammunition limitations (a flare vult or cent with only flares will often run out of flares long before succeeding in killing the target) now you want to make it harder to hit the target?"
You can't win a fight with just flares? Try getting a tri flare anything. All it takes is 2 good hits and a rev C is dead. And I've killed probably 3 valks at a time (at best) with flares and agt. You hit em with flares and the agt eats them up. It's a good combo and all but you don't even need the agt. It's just too damn easy to hit players with flares.
"Flares are extremely easy to evade already, even in a ragnarok. Pilots unload two to three tubes of suns on my <insert_heavy_ship_here> all the time without hitting me once. When up against neuts, you're proper f'ed if you're flying something heavier than a hog without an AGT, and even then you're in some pretty deep shit."
Sorry man but I've taken on 5 rags with my prom and flares... Rags are properly f'ed up if they are using any missiles against my prom. All you do is turbo in, flare, agt, boom.
The skill to kill ratio just ain't right.
"And yes, leave the flares alone... given the choice I generally prefer rocket duels to energy duels.. they are just more interesting imho. 90% of the time energy-only duels fall into a barrel roll waltz where both pilots hold down the A and E keys, while spraying and praying."
Phaser if your just rolling and firing then your gonna die rather quickly in an energy battle. Heck I PREFER when players roll only cause I know I'm gonna kick their butts. There is alot more tactics and things you can do in energy only fights that you need to discover for it to be interesting.
"How about, instead of a damage increase, all energy weapons get a velocity increase... say 10-20% across the board? This would make energy weapons easier to hit with."
YES! I was thinking about this before and can't believe I forgot to mention it. 10-30% even would be nice and make energy weapons more deadly in skillful hands. It wouldn't even be a balance issue since all it would do is lower the pilots potential reaction time. Even then, energy would only ever be usefull if the shot is going to hit. Therefore making it a skill factor instead of a damage or proximity or ammo factor.
25% increase in ALL energy weapons would bring them up to speed with the flares. . . . Just don't increase the bots energy weapons :)
/givemoney Devs 2c
I think you missed the point Cunjo. I have 900+ pks. You have 100+ pks. When I fought against your prom with an energy valk it was "VERY" close (the first time). It just takes too little skill to use a prom and flares. No offense but I could kick your butt with a prom and 2 flares but it takes me 10 minutes to wittle you down with energy...... and even then its very close.
"They take skill to use, especially against a good pilot (just like any other weapon, excepting perhaps swarms) You cannot win a fight against a neut cent or valk with flares alone, and they are already virtually useless as an exclusive weapon thanks to the new ammunition limitations (a flare vult or cent with only flares will often run out of flares long before succeeding in killing the target) now you want to make it harder to hit the target?"
You can't win a fight with just flares? Try getting a tri flare anything. All it takes is 2 good hits and a rev C is dead. And I've killed probably 3 valks at a time (at best) with flares and agt. You hit em with flares and the agt eats them up. It's a good combo and all but you don't even need the agt. It's just too damn easy to hit players with flares.
"Flares are extremely easy to evade already, even in a ragnarok. Pilots unload two to three tubes of suns on my <insert_heavy_ship_here> all the time without hitting me once. When up against neuts, you're proper f'ed if you're flying something heavier than a hog without an AGT, and even then you're in some pretty deep shit."
Sorry man but I've taken on 5 rags with my prom and flares... Rags are properly f'ed up if they are using any missiles against my prom. All you do is turbo in, flare, agt, boom.
The skill to kill ratio just ain't right.
"And yes, leave the flares alone... given the choice I generally prefer rocket duels to energy duels.. they are just more interesting imho. 90% of the time energy-only duels fall into a barrel roll waltz where both pilots hold down the A and E keys, while spraying and praying."
Phaser if your just rolling and firing then your gonna die rather quickly in an energy battle. Heck I PREFER when players roll only cause I know I'm gonna kick their butts. There is alot more tactics and things you can do in energy only fights that you need to discover for it to be interesting.
"How about, instead of a damage increase, all energy weapons get a velocity increase... say 10-20% across the board? This would make energy weapons easier to hit with."
YES! I was thinking about this before and can't believe I forgot to mention it. 10-30% even would be nice and make energy weapons more deadly in skillful hands. It wouldn't even be a balance issue since all it would do is lower the pilots potential reaction time. Even then, energy would only ever be usefull if the shot is going to hit. Therefore making it a skill factor instead of a damage or proximity or ammo factor.
25% increase in ALL energy weapons would bring them up to speed with the flares. . . . Just don't increase the bots energy weapons :)
/givemoney Devs 2c
25% increase in energy speeds will drastically change combat. it *will* make rails almost useless and a rail pilot will be unable to stay close enough to his target to hit while not getting shot to pieces by energy.
if you wish to control the velocity of the flares relative to energy, slow down the flares. that's the boost that made them so good anyway.
if you wish to control the velocity of the flares relative to energy, slow down the flares. that's the boost that made them so good anyway.
All you do is turbo in, flare, agt, boom.
The skill to kill ratio just ain't right.
KixKizzle, I understand your point, but it's actually not quite that simple... the only reason that tactic works in an SCP is because of the high armor... try using that tactic against a skilled energy user in anything other than a prom and you will die very quickly. Even against a prom there are a couple good ways to counter this maneuver that I've found using only energy.
Phaser if your just rolling and firing then your gonna die rather quickly in an energy battle. Heck I PREFER when players roll only cause I know I'm gonna kick their butts. There is alot more tactics and things you can do in energy only fights that you need to discover for it to be interesting.
I know... you can switch up your roll, you can advance and retreat... toggle between autoaim/no autoaim... try to match your opponent's roll when you have full energy and go opposite when you are recharging... I do all of these things. I'm not saying there are no tactics involved with energy duels, I'm saying that in general flare tactics are more interesting to me since they are slower and require a broader playing field... it kinda feels like the Matrix's "bullet time" whereas energy duels are more like fencing.
25% increase in ALL energy weapons would bring them up to speed with the flares. . . . Just don't increase the bots energy weapons :)
Heh, the bots use the same weapons we do for the most part... 'fraid upping the energy weaps would cut both ways pal ;p I also think 25% would be far too drastic... the past has shown when it comes to balance small steps are better.
The skill to kill ratio just ain't right.
KixKizzle, I understand your point, but it's actually not quite that simple... the only reason that tactic works in an SCP is because of the high armor... try using that tactic against a skilled energy user in anything other than a prom and you will die very quickly. Even against a prom there are a couple good ways to counter this maneuver that I've found using only energy.
Phaser if your just rolling and firing then your gonna die rather quickly in an energy battle. Heck I PREFER when players roll only cause I know I'm gonna kick their butts. There is alot more tactics and things you can do in energy only fights that you need to discover for it to be interesting.
I know... you can switch up your roll, you can advance and retreat... toggle between autoaim/no autoaim... try to match your opponent's roll when you have full energy and go opposite when you are recharging... I do all of these things. I'm not saying there are no tactics involved with energy duels, I'm saying that in general flare tactics are more interesting to me since they are slower and require a broader playing field... it kinda feels like the Matrix's "bullet time" whereas energy duels are more like fencing.
25% increase in ALL energy weapons would bring them up to speed with the flares. . . . Just don't increase the bots energy weapons :)
Heh, the bots use the same weapons we do for the most part... 'fraid upping the energy weaps would cut both ways pal ;p I also think 25% would be far too drastic... the past has shown when it comes to balance small steps are better.
>> [a flare duel] kinda feel likes the Matrix's "bullet time"
>> whereas energy duels are more like fencing.
Ah, the eminently quotable Phaserlight! I like that!
>> whereas energy duels are more like fencing.
Ah, the eminently quotable Phaserlight! I like that!
Phaser... Switch up your roll???
I don't roll at all, except when I'm at 20m from their ship, and then its only a brief maneuver.
I don't much like energy fights like that, but they're easy enough to win.
As far as the prom, yes turboing+flaring+agt will just win because of the armor.
But I can fight in a prom against a light fighter and not get hit.
AGT means that I never have to try to aim toward their reticle, I just keep the prom perfectly lined up on their ship, giving me a very small cross-section and making it easy to flare them.
Then I just strafe to stay in position.
A good energy duel isn't fencing, its kung fu.
As far as upping the velocity, I don't think that's necessary, I score plenty of hits already, the problem is that I can't keep up with the damage of the flare hits. So perhaps a 100-200 damage increase across the board isn't out of the question.
It would also shorten those extra long light-light duels which everyone always complains about.
(Also, there's nothing wrong at all with rails, I've been flying the quad advanced recently, and it rocks. That's what I used for the Odia M14 deathmatch, SOO much fun)
I don't roll at all, except when I'm at 20m from their ship, and then its only a brief maneuver.
I don't much like energy fights like that, but they're easy enough to win.
As far as the prom, yes turboing+flaring+agt will just win because of the armor.
But I can fight in a prom against a light fighter and not get hit.
AGT means that I never have to try to aim toward their reticle, I just keep the prom perfectly lined up on their ship, giving me a very small cross-section and making it easy to flare them.
Then I just strafe to stay in position.
A good energy duel isn't fencing, its kung fu.
As far as upping the velocity, I don't think that's necessary, I score plenty of hits already, the problem is that I can't keep up with the damage of the flare hits. So perhaps a 100-200 damage increase across the board isn't out of the question.
It would also shorten those extra long light-light duels which everyone always complains about.
(Also, there's nothing wrong at all with rails, I've been flying the quad advanced recently, and it rocks. That's what I used for the Odia M14 deathmatch, SOO much fun)
erm, increasing ALL the energy weapons damage would drastically unbalance things.
Hell, PHASE BLASTERS would be the new Uber weapons because the the energy cost.
It would be alot easier to modify 3 weapons than say 20ish. So just decrease the damage on the flares OR using what I suggested might do it too.
Phaserlight,
I was simplifying my tactics too much. Basically I do what Chimaera does unless I see a rag....
[edit]
5% increase in energy weapons speed would almost balance them IMO
[/edit]
Hell, PHASE BLASTERS would be the new Uber weapons because the the energy cost.
It would be alot easier to modify 3 weapons than say 20ish. So just decrease the damage on the flares OR using what I suggested might do it too.
Phaserlight,
I was simplifying my tactics too much. Basically I do what Chimaera does unless I see a rag....
[edit]
5% increase in energy weapons speed would almost balance them IMO
[/edit]
I think what Chimera really means is a 10% increase in damage, rather than 100 damage points as that would favor rapidly firing weapons.
Phase blasters would not become unbalanced as long as any buff to the energy weapons is a certain % across the board since they would have the same damager-per-energy ratio to all other weapons as before.
However, I'm inclined to think that the weapons are balanced just fine the way they are now.
Phase blasters would not become unbalanced as long as any buff to the energy weapons is a certain % across the board since they would have the same damager-per-energy ratio to all other weapons as before.
However, I'm inclined to think that the weapons are balanced just fine the way they are now.
Speaking of drastically unbalancing things, I'd like to point something out and see how people react:
The major reason why energy weapons have become so difficult to hit with, and rockets have needed a speedup.. is because ships have gradually become faster since Alpha. In retrospect this probably wasn't a good idea, but we had some complaints about how "slow feeling" ships were, and I was trying to imbue things with a little more Fast Paced Feel without changing much. Unfortunately, I think we lost some of our Classic Combat Feel in the process.
We could, potentially, reduce thrust on all ships by 5%, across the board. This would suddenly make all the weapons more effective (rockets might need a small speed nerf), and probably make all the players more frustrated ;). So.. it's something I would approach with a great deal of concern.
It would help something else though.. right now it's pretty hard for anyone overseas to compete in combat once latency gets over a certain threshold.. people skip around, it's impossible for the client to do good prediction given the current level of ship maneuverability, over a certain ping. This would also help those people as well.
Whether people are overseas or not.. if we keep making stuff Faster (weapons, whatever) we're eventually going to run into a lot more of "the shot is faster than I can.. see", which I would prefer to avoid.
So anyway, just a couple of points. Feel free to debate the hell of out them.
The major reason why energy weapons have become so difficult to hit with, and rockets have needed a speedup.. is because ships have gradually become faster since Alpha. In retrospect this probably wasn't a good idea, but we had some complaints about how "slow feeling" ships were, and I was trying to imbue things with a little more Fast Paced Feel without changing much. Unfortunately, I think we lost some of our Classic Combat Feel in the process.
We could, potentially, reduce thrust on all ships by 5%, across the board. This would suddenly make all the weapons more effective (rockets might need a small speed nerf), and probably make all the players more frustrated ;). So.. it's something I would approach with a great deal of concern.
It would help something else though.. right now it's pretty hard for anyone overseas to compete in combat once latency gets over a certain threshold.. people skip around, it's impossible for the client to do good prediction given the current level of ship maneuverability, over a certain ping. This would also help those people as well.
Whether people are overseas or not.. if we keep making stuff Faster (weapons, whatever) we're eventually going to run into a lot more of "the shot is faster than I can.. see", which I would prefer to avoid.
So anyway, just a couple of points. Feel free to debate the hell of out them.
My opinion is that right now, while of course not perfect, the balance of all the different ships and weapons is probably the best that it's been since I started playing. I'd prefer the devs spent their time focusing on "content" (more missions, player controlled capital ships, destructable/capturable stations, etc.) rather than balance. No, the balance isn't perfect right now, but it's good enough, IMO.
I don't believe that balance has to come at the expense of content, I think the devs are in the best position to decide how they can spend their time. So lets give them the ideas, and not talk about what they can or can't do.
i think weapon balance is fine as it is. sure flairs are good, but think about it this way: a modern fighter plane is equipped with guns, but the primarily use missiles and bombs. The same holds true for Naval warships. The main weapons of most modern military vehicles is missiles. Now ask yourself why that is. it's because missiles provide a superior engagment range and better accuracy.
Now, Vendetta is a game, and therefor while based on some level of reality the devs have made sacrafices in realisam in favor of making the game fun. These include keeping the ship's speeds fairly low, and maintaining a low engagment range (so that players can see their oponent and dogfight rather than having to resort to "point and click" warfare). Thus seeking missiles are relatively ineffective. However balistic missiles (rockets) remain more effective than many enery weapons because they have a longer engagment range and deliver more damage. This is an artafact of the basic design of the game. if rockets were to be "balanced" with energy weapons then everyone would complain that they were too week. as it is rockets are easy to dodge if you use the right tactics. besides this balance issue will be less inportant with the addition of larger ships.
Now, Vendetta is a game, and therefor while based on some level of reality the devs have made sacrafices in realisam in favor of making the game fun. These include keeping the ship's speeds fairly low, and maintaining a low engagment range (so that players can see their oponent and dogfight rather than having to resort to "point and click" warfare). Thus seeking missiles are relatively ineffective. However balistic missiles (rockets) remain more effective than many enery weapons because they have a longer engagment range and deliver more damage. This is an artafact of the basic design of the game. if rockets were to be "balanced" with energy weapons then everyone would complain that they were too week. as it is rockets are easy to dodge if you use the right tactics. besides this balance issue will be less inportant with the addition of larger ships.
"as it is rockets are easy to dodge if you use the right tactics. besides this balance issue will be less inportant with the addition of larger ships."
What tactics are you using?
What tactics are you using?
Chimaera, unfortunately content has been pushed aside many times for balancing updates, so you are wrong. There are only 4 devs correct?, and possibly some outside contractors, but for the most part if they start on another balancing round, that will push back any potental NEW content that we will see by at least a week. I for one and not willing to wait much longer, the introduction of an unfinished Hive was bad enough, but now you want them to take a step backwards, come on, aren't you out of here anyway once your account is up? What do you care if there is another balance update or not?
Shape,
I think he's talking about the "back up for 20 minutes till they run out of flares" trick.
"i think weapon balance is fine as it is. sure flairs are good, but think about it this way: a modern fighter plane is equipped with guns, but the primarily use missiles and bombs. The same holds true for Naval warships. The main weapons of most modern military vehicles is missiles. Now ask yourself why that is. it's because missiles provide a superior engagment range and better accuracy."
A modern fighter plane should never be used to balance a 3d space simulation. Technologically by this time they SHOULD have extremely accurate weapons that don't even require skill. Now if we had those would they be fun? Now imagine dieing to something like that, a weapon that is just too damn easy to use. Kinda takes the fun out of it. And anyone who says "It's fine! Rockets are SUPPOSED to be powerful." then they suck with energy or don't pvp much.
Fact of the matter is unless you want to back up for 10 minutes, and sacrifice the fast paced battle that energy IS, then please just concede that rockets are over powered.
I think he's talking about the "back up for 20 minutes till they run out of flares" trick.
"i think weapon balance is fine as it is. sure flairs are good, but think about it this way: a modern fighter plane is equipped with guns, but the primarily use missiles and bombs. The same holds true for Naval warships. The main weapons of most modern military vehicles is missiles. Now ask yourself why that is. it's because missiles provide a superior engagment range and better accuracy."
A modern fighter plane should never be used to balance a 3d space simulation. Technologically by this time they SHOULD have extremely accurate weapons that don't even require skill. Now if we had those would they be fun? Now imagine dieing to something like that, a weapon that is just too damn easy to use. Kinda takes the fun out of it. And anyone who says "It's fine! Rockets are SUPPOSED to be powerful." then they suck with energy or don't pvp much.
Fact of the matter is unless you want to back up for 10 minutes, and sacrifice the fast paced battle that energy IS, then please just concede that rockets are over powered.
nah Johnhawl, my point was that we should let the devs decide how to spend their time, and not answer every good idea with "well but that will take time away from such-and-such"
my point is that we don't know the devs time commitments at all.
I happen to feel that balance is something that could be done in addition to adding content, gradually. Seeing as it does NOT require coding (they just change the values on their end), and instead requires testing.
So, if changes are made gradually, there's no reason why balance can't continue all the time
my point is that we don't know the devs time commitments at all.
I happen to feel that balance is something that could be done in addition to adding content, gradually. Seeing as it does NOT require coding (they just change the values on their end), and instead requires testing.
So, if changes are made gradually, there's no reason why balance can't continue all the time
Kixkizzle
>>"I think you missed the point Cunjo. I have 900+ pks. You have 100+ pks. When I fought against your prom with an energy valk it was "VERY" close (the first time). It just takes too little skill to use a prom and flares. No offense but I could kick your butt with a prom and 2 flares"<<
so you're trying to justify the closeness of that battle as an imbalance in piloting skill? sorry, not going to work. For one, simply having more PKs under your belt doesn't make you a better pilot. And if you'd like to get in your prom with flares and fight me, go ahead. I'm sure you'll find it a lot harder than you think when you try and put your money where your mouth is. And quite frsankly, I think that's completely BESIDES the point. the point, Kix, is that flares are easy to evade already, and don't need nerfing. ...you did evade them, didn't you?
>>"You can't win a fight with just flares? Try getting a tri flare anything. All it takes is 2 good hits and a rev C is dead. And I've killed probably 3 valks at a time (at best) with flares and agt. You hit em with flares and the agt eats them up. It's a good combo and all but you don't even need the agt. It's just too damn easy to hit players with flares."<<
If you can -land- two good hits. A sunflare fired by an opponent travels at X+85 m/sec (where X is the velocity of the opponent's ship) in a fight involving energy (and most other fights as well) X is generally very close to the speed of your own ship, meaning the flare's rate of closure is approximately 85 m/sec. Even if the opponent's aim and prediction was immaculate, you only need to alter the velocity of your ship at a rate of 30 m/sec to avoid a sunflare fired from 85 m away (practically point-blank). excluding instances of drastically multiplied rate of closure, a good pilot can evade a sunflare in almost -any- ship, if fired from more than 100 m away. Add in the factor of error in the firing vector, and any half-decent pilot can escape the average volley unscathed.
>>"Sorry man but I've taken on 5 rags with my prom and flares... Rags are properly f'ed up if they are using any missiles against my prom. All you do is turbo in, flare, agt, boom."<<
and if the pilot is prepared for the rush, all they do is boost away and re-engage, or, rotate, adjust lateral velocity, fire, and take you down with them... rushing like that is not a viable tactic in PvP, especially against a heavily-armed ship like the rag. (note: if not using missiles, you don't even need to adjust the lateral velocity - you just aim and fire. a good rag pilot doesn't use missiles anyway)
>>"25% increase in ALL energy weapons would bring them up to speed with the flares. . . . "<<
uhh... energy weapons already are better than flares for speed and accuracy. speed by about 275%, in fact, in the case of the Neut III. energy weaps don't need a speed increase.
>>" it takes me 10 minutes to wittle you down with energy......"<<
That's how it's SUPPOSED to be. Energy weapons require different tactics than flares. When the two clash, the energy weapons should be forced to take advantage of their superior endourance. Flares are an all-or-nothing weapon. They require careful precision and calculated timing when firing in order to be effective, especially against fast ships. Pilots are forced to change their tactics to take advantage of the flares' solid punch. There is no less skill involved. People who prefer the tactics or experience of using flares will use flares, and those who prefer the grace and endurance of energy weapons will use energy weapons. Energy weapons are not for everyone, neither are flares. It's a matter of preference, and the divisions of that preference are weighted in the energy weapon user's favor.
So please, leave our flares alone, and we'll leave your energy weapons alone.
There is no immediate need to make rockets passe.
EDIT: and for those who haven't figured it out yet, best way to avoid flares with a rag (assuming they're not rushing you, in which case you need to break off and boost), is to thrust downward or upward, and rotate your ship to turn away from the flare's approach vector... works 90% of the time for me, and the other 10% is never enough to be fatal.
>>"I think you missed the point Cunjo. I have 900+ pks. You have 100+ pks. When I fought against your prom with an energy valk it was "VERY" close (the first time). It just takes too little skill to use a prom and flares. No offense but I could kick your butt with a prom and 2 flares"<<
so you're trying to justify the closeness of that battle as an imbalance in piloting skill? sorry, not going to work. For one, simply having more PKs under your belt doesn't make you a better pilot. And if you'd like to get in your prom with flares and fight me, go ahead. I'm sure you'll find it a lot harder than you think when you try and put your money where your mouth is. And quite frsankly, I think that's completely BESIDES the point. the point, Kix, is that flares are easy to evade already, and don't need nerfing. ...you did evade them, didn't you?
>>"You can't win a fight with just flares? Try getting a tri flare anything. All it takes is 2 good hits and a rev C is dead. And I've killed probably 3 valks at a time (at best) with flares and agt. You hit em with flares and the agt eats them up. It's a good combo and all but you don't even need the agt. It's just too damn easy to hit players with flares."<<
If you can -land- two good hits. A sunflare fired by an opponent travels at X+85 m/sec (where X is the velocity of the opponent's ship) in a fight involving energy (and most other fights as well) X is generally very close to the speed of your own ship, meaning the flare's rate of closure is approximately 85 m/sec. Even if the opponent's aim and prediction was immaculate, you only need to alter the velocity of your ship at a rate of 30 m/sec to avoid a sunflare fired from 85 m away (practically point-blank). excluding instances of drastically multiplied rate of closure, a good pilot can evade a sunflare in almost -any- ship, if fired from more than 100 m away. Add in the factor of error in the firing vector, and any half-decent pilot can escape the average volley unscathed.
>>"Sorry man but I've taken on 5 rags with my prom and flares... Rags are properly f'ed up if they are using any missiles against my prom. All you do is turbo in, flare, agt, boom."<<
and if the pilot is prepared for the rush, all they do is boost away and re-engage, or, rotate, adjust lateral velocity, fire, and take you down with them... rushing like that is not a viable tactic in PvP, especially against a heavily-armed ship like the rag. (note: if not using missiles, you don't even need to adjust the lateral velocity - you just aim and fire. a good rag pilot doesn't use missiles anyway)
>>"25% increase in ALL energy weapons would bring them up to speed with the flares. . . . "<<
uhh... energy weapons already are better than flares for speed and accuracy. speed by about 275%, in fact, in the case of the Neut III. energy weaps don't need a speed increase.
>>" it takes me 10 minutes to wittle you down with energy......"<<
That's how it's SUPPOSED to be. Energy weapons require different tactics than flares. When the two clash, the energy weapons should be forced to take advantage of their superior endourance. Flares are an all-or-nothing weapon. They require careful precision and calculated timing when firing in order to be effective, especially against fast ships. Pilots are forced to change their tactics to take advantage of the flares' solid punch. There is no less skill involved. People who prefer the tactics or experience of using flares will use flares, and those who prefer the grace and endurance of energy weapons will use energy weapons. Energy weapons are not for everyone, neither are flares. It's a matter of preference, and the divisions of that preference are weighted in the energy weapon user's favor.
So please, leave our flares alone, and we'll leave your energy weapons alone.
There is no immediate need to make rockets passe.
EDIT: and for those who haven't figured it out yet, best way to avoid flares with a rag (assuming they're not rushing you, in which case you need to break off and boost), is to thrust downward or upward, and rotate your ship to turn away from the flare's approach vector... works 90% of the time for me, and the other 10% is never enough to be fatal.
I love the feel of fast ships so I'm not really a fan of slowing them down. If any thing I would like to see a really light/fast one S port ship with almost no armor as a scout/light fighter. Mmm that would be sweetness...
Any way I think it would be better just to speed things up so that the guns match the ships.
Any way I think it would be better just to speed things up so that the guns match the ships.
Cunjo,
let me take up that challenge on behalf of Kix.
I bet that if I fought your prom with my rev c, you'd stand a decent chance of winning.
But if I break out my prom with AGT and flares? I'm sorry dude, there's a reason why Matriarch (Me), UncleDave, Martin, and Mists are at the top of the Duel stats. They're all characters that fly proms, and its the rockets that make the prom powerful.
Like I said before, you can get lucky and win with rockets.
You can't get lucky and win with blasters, unless the person accidentally hits "t"
...
As far as your assertion that rockets are not that fast, consider this:
1)It's easy to turboflare making them go as fast as 185 m/s in under a second. This means that if you aim roughly at a person,
at or under 150 m, they have less than a second to accelerate out of the 30 m range, and they have to go in a STRAIGHT LINE out, otherwise their gonna get caught, human reaction speed tends to hang out at about 0.200 s.
If they move in a stright line, the flarer just fires another one a little ways above. Nothing but Net.
2) you don't fire rockets when people are beyond 150 m, and they won't hit you with blasters either, unless you're really bad at dodging. You maneuver so that you have a high relative speed, then fire (its easy, and its why the rocketrag is so powerful)
3) Rockets actually require skill, but only if your opponent is ALSO using rockets and has the threats to make you think twice about pulling bad stunts.
Sorry, there's no skill in flaring an energy user, you just keep dodging till they get too close, then fire, and combo
let me take up that challenge on behalf of Kix.
I bet that if I fought your prom with my rev c, you'd stand a decent chance of winning.
But if I break out my prom with AGT and flares? I'm sorry dude, there's a reason why Matriarch (Me), UncleDave, Martin, and Mists are at the top of the Duel stats. They're all characters that fly proms, and its the rockets that make the prom powerful.
Like I said before, you can get lucky and win with rockets.
You can't get lucky and win with blasters, unless the person accidentally hits "t"
...
As far as your assertion that rockets are not that fast, consider this:
1)It's easy to turboflare making them go as fast as 185 m/s in under a second. This means that if you aim roughly at a person,
at or under 150 m, they have less than a second to accelerate out of the 30 m range, and they have to go in a STRAIGHT LINE out, otherwise their gonna get caught, human reaction speed tends to hang out at about 0.200 s.
If they move in a stright line, the flarer just fires another one a little ways above. Nothing but Net.
2) you don't fire rockets when people are beyond 150 m, and they won't hit you with blasters either, unless you're really bad at dodging. You maneuver so that you have a high relative speed, then fire (its easy, and its why the rocketrag is so powerful)
3) Rockets actually require skill, but only if your opponent is ALSO using rockets and has the threats to make you think twice about pulling bad stunts.
Sorry, there's no skill in flaring an energy user, you just keep dodging till they get too close, then fire, and combo