So I was reading through a recently gravedug thread from back in the day about "overshooting" your desired turn amount, and I thought that it could apply to turboing, in a way. (by the way, that thread is here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/975 )

My thoughts on having a non-maneuverable turbo:

1. Not being able to maneuver while turboing is boring.

2. It doesn't make sense that you would all of a sudden loose all turning capabilities while turboing (why can we roll and not turn, anyways?)

3. maneuvering while in turbo is way cooler than not maneuvering in turbo.

So, rather than saying once again that we should have maneuverable turbo, I've got a slightly different solution this time:

What if we were able to continue turning (but not strafing) above the top speed w/o turbo, but loose that maneuvering ability as your speed approached the top turbo speed, and would loose maneuvering ability entirely at about 75% of your top turbo speed.

So, if I was flying a IBG, who's top speed w/o turbo (I believe) is 70m/s, and top speed with turbo is 240m/s, and I was flying at 100 m/s, then I would have about 75% of my maneuvering abilities left, and as I got to about 200m/s, I will have lost all maneuverability.

However, I think for this to work, we need to be able to control how fast we really are traveling.

...cue PART 2 of this suggestion.

I'd like to see something that lets us choose how fast we want to turbo to, and 'cruise control' at that speed, and have the drain for sub-top speeds be lower than traveling at a full 240m/s or so. So, traders who can't get a FC battery yet could 'cruise control' albeit at a much lower speed.

Just a few ideas. These ideas may be good, and they may be lousy, but either way, I tried to combine the current system with something that I saw as adding fun to the game.

~Seldon

You know, I do kinda like the idea of being able to turn while turboing but not strafe, makes running more than just lining up behind someone, and doing it badly will actually let your chaser catch up (whenever you turn, they just take the hypoteneuse, they can always use it to get closer)

I truly had thought about your part 2 a while ago, but figured it had been suggested and lost the battle.

I would love to have that implemented...
Any ship could infiniboost, but only at a certain speed. If the more advanced ships can reach the higher speeds it is at the cost of drain, but at least you wouldn't have to wait for the battery to re-charge for a jump unless you are at full speed...

Part 1 I agree with as well.

my 2 cr...

well, rolling is possible when turboing because you're simply rotating around your thrust vector.

I always thought that the rolling is due to firing engines to change your rotation, which you would also do for turning the ship, which is also just rotating around the center of mass.

...soo, cue maneuvering? :P

hmm... I think perhaps the decrease in maneuverability should be ona logarithmic scale... ie. you lose most of your maneuvering power in the first 1/3 of the speed above max scale, and in the last 1/3, you've lost almost all of it. I do like this suggestion however... not only wold it make for more interesting gameplay, it would make turbo-tapping with a ship like the vulture smoother and more realistic.

As for the controllable turbo speeds, I don't think it should be implemented... it would detract from things like racing, throw off old players with changing controls, and irritate newbies with more keystrokes. I also don't like the idea of turning more combat ships into infiniboosters and making them more combat-capable at the same time.

The battery drain should remain the same throughout the whole turbo scale (you're using that power to maneuver now, remember?)

The reason I didn't suggest a logarithmic scale, is because some ships accelerate *very* quickly (all of the light fighters, for instance), and you would never get a chance to *use* the maneuverability during turbo.

As for battery drain during controlled turbo, the best decision *may* be to keep drain as it is, but let us choose our target speed, so we can still have some maneuverability in light ships, because they accelerate too fast to be able to maintain maneuverability for more than a second or two.

OR

(I'm going to use an IBG for this example once again, because it has a drain of 60, and top speed of 240)
Drain is scaled logarithmically, so the faster you go, the more energy is consumed, and the increase in drain would be greatest right after pressing the turbo button, and cost less and less to continue advancing to 240. The kind of scale I'm thinking of is the graph of F(x)=e^(-x).

^Bump

I was actually going to suggest going the other way a bit, and making the turbo more fixed, or at least 'powerful', and quite useless in short-range combat. Currently I hate how it accelerates consistently up to a maximum speed, and really only feels like you are using the ships normal engines.

I would prefer say a half second delay after activating the turbo engines -- as it powers up. And then a rapid acceleration almost to full speed as the engines engage. This should have audible and visible feedback. Some screen shake, and a feeling of turbulence while at speed. As much as I hate to refer to it, EVE did this very well.

You could possibly turn while turboing, but it would be in a very wide arc. I would also love a vector trail behind ships so you could discern their velocity easily from a distance while they are turboing. This would be for long rage travel, and make in sector movement much less tedious (and possibly challenging?). This would make group flying strategy, and determining an angle of attack, especially against capital ship size targets, much more interesting.

We could then possibly rethink a 'boost' or some such acceleration, similar to the current turbo, that would be more useful in 'dogfight' style combat. This would definately be more manouverable.

This turbo overhaul would break the gameplay elements into 2 parts -- the short range dogfight, and the long range, high speed cargo running/pirating style scenario.

I'm still not sure of the implications for traders, pirates or escort missions if something like this was implemented, or what types of ships would be best suited to having this turbo if it weren't all of them. Nor how to adjust the current flight model for a quick acceleration and more control during dogfights. But I think this would be an interesting way to provide more diversity in ship characteristics and piloting styles. What does everybody think?

Well, if you're going to go that route, I've got some changes...

Bring back Engines, and make this "super powerful" turbo or whatever be limited to one type of engine, one that is very very heavy, takes a few moments to begin turboing, and low thrust, but high speed or low drain or whatever. Perhaps only tradeship-equippable.

Another engine could have a version of combat-turbo, which allows maneuvering. Perhaps only fighter-equippable.

I maintain that not being able to maneuver while turboing is stupid though.

I agree on all counts, I think stylistically you shouldn't be able to strafe. You should definately be able to change the direction of your ship, but only by turning and rolling, and in this sense it would be somewhat more similar to say a flight simulator in that you are committed to a forward trajectory when at speed. By lowering your speed and coming out of 'turbo' you could then use the full capacity of the ships maneuvering capabilities.

And yes 'in turbo' you should also be able to control the thrust of the turbo using the accelerate keys which would allow you a certain degree of control when attempting to position yourself to attack a running ship (convoy etc). Because the current flight model of having to intercept its flight path and turbo tap to try and maintain speed, while maneuvering between taps to aim is terrible... Or having to fly in a number of straight lines as opposed to a graceful curve.

I also think the flight model definitely needs to feel more 'tactile'. Ships should react differently not only due to weight, but maybe from engine damage, ion storms, weapon loadout, design of the ship etc.

And yep to make this possible -- bring back engines!

I really like Harry's idea of having combat OR trader variants etc. (similar to the current decision between heavy or fast charge batts.) This makes much more sense than the current prevalence of mach 1, mach 2 style progressions which simply leaves everybody using the most powerful variant available.

If directional turbo is added then all the weapons will need to be modified in order to compensate.
The speed of turbo's impact on combat is balanced by the fact that turbo is always in a straight line and therefore the trajectory can be anticipated. Weapons will need to be faster and (*sigh*) smarter, otherwise you'll never hit a damned thing at turbo speeds.

Your assuming that we'll have a decent amount of maneuverability at high turbo speeds.
As your thrust increases, your turning speed decreases exponentially.
It's not like in a car where you turn the wheel and your cars tires shift the momentum of your car since gravity pulls them to the ground and creates traction.
You'd turn really, really slow and weapons would still be efficient enough.

The only point to doing this is to make it more realistic, cause everyone hates this feature.
Anyone who says they like it is just insecure and likes the old ways.
Then again I'm just ranting and know none of it will happen but it should be implimented if easy to do so.
blah blah blah

Ah yes, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is an old poopy-head" technique, paired with the "everyone hates ____" technique.

I don't hate this feature. I anticipate the forward motion of my opponents and avoid moving in straight lines myself. Your terrestrial physics analogy is flawed, but I don't think that realism is necessarily worth pursuing anyway. There are lots of things that are not realistic in VO that exist because it makes for better game play. Let's face it - we all grew up watching totally unrealistic space battles that were based on WWII dogfights. Those could never actually happen in space, and yet we crave that action.

This suggestion would make things alot more interesting when attempting to get behind an opponent. This could also livin up dogfights a bit, making using your turbo an actual need rather than an option. It also keeps your fingers moving which implies action or excitment in the brain, in other words, itll be more exciting to new and veteran players. It would make turboing around roids at 150m/s a new tactic as we could actually weave in and out of roid fields during a dog fight. Adding the turbo effect you speak of would also give us an amazing new sense of speed when a pilot attempts to turn, instead of leveling out, you'll bank around at about 170 m/s. I do think this is actually do able , and quickly as well, as all it requires is some tweaking of settings in the flight engine or so I believe. I would love to see this idea implemented BEFORE the marketing push.

The other suggestion by Infinte_Skillz aso sparks my interest. I've played eve and the turbulence/ build up to a speed during cruising is done amazingly well, despite the crap PVP and overall boringness of the actual game. Perhaps we could combine the two ideas? Maybe there should be more options when turbing, perhaps a booster and then the turbo engines. The booster would act as a quick thrust mechanism for PVP and PVE combat, while the turbo engines would use Infinte_Skillz idea of a build up and turblent launch to your max speed, perhaps a few second delay when the ship is bringing its Turbo engines online.

I really do like the ideaa as it creates more dynamic flight in VO. [Stamp of Approval]

P.S Devs this would really make the game amazingly more appealing to the mass market.

Great idea, I'm totally for it too. I've often thought it would spice things up and really add to the gameplay.

Whistler,
First of all I don't own a technique handbook for writing reply's.
Second of all I do think your an old poopy head because auto aim ALREADY sucks when used against anyone who is turbo'ing.
First off it does not factor in the acceleration of the ship it is firing against.
The only way to hit someone who is accelerating is to get behind them or turn auto aim off.
Also have you ever played *any* racing game?
Do you feel *any* excitement when your going 200 miles an hour around turns that you can't possibly take?
See that's fun.
Speed = instant adrenaline.

Anyone who disagree's is just an old poopey head.

wow i'm suprised no one has tried the old "this will take skill out of combat because i can't learn to hit a moving target and ships already go to fast" argument (unless i missed it)

anyway i like the original sugestion. the way i assumed turbo worked was the ship's main engin (the one responsable for strafing, and forward and reverse motion) had to dedicate all it's power in one direction and due to some fact of Astro-engineering this could only be accomplished in one direction (forward being chosen at build time for obvious usability reasons). ships can role while turboing because thie attatude is controled by a seperat set of thrusters that are not involved in generating the turbo-speed.

from a gameplay balance side:
this would make chasing your oponent a LOT easier. yes they can flee at their personal infiniboost speed, but you can gracefully manuver a persuit coarse, rather than having to perform quick, extreemly precise, manuvers between turbo taps and hold a steady persuit coarse.

this will not impact most facets of "traditional" dogfighting because use of combat turbo by either player would change the battle into another catagory that i will describe momentarily. if neither player uses turbo during a dog-fight it will play out prety much like the dogfightes do now. only a select few weapons would be made more or less effective by this (flairs would be mande more efective, and seeking missiles would loose effectivness)

the before mentioned "new" dogfights would involve one or more players using combat turbo. In this scenario the player who is using turbo will suffer from reduced manuverability (both because they keep moving forward and because of the reduced turn abilities). this would make them more vulverable to well placed shots (as their flight path is more predictable) but would also afford them some miner protection in that their oponent has a reduced windo to fire. if both pl;ayers used combat turbo the fight would be largly similar to airplane flight sims or X-Wing physics.

as far as whtat people would do:
well i think flairs would become the most popular weapon, most players would use combat turbo when fighting offensively, but tend towards more traditional combat when fighting defensively, and if we are lucky people would stop complaining about how easy it is to run.

so all and all i like the idea but we'll probably need to nerf flairs a bit to maintain balance.

No... I think being able to maneuver at turbo is a bad idea. Have you ever tried tracking (and hitting) an object that's turboing perpendicular to you? It is extremely difficult. Now imagine trying to hit an object turboing perpendicular to you, and weaving up and down.

Now of course, one of these players could theoretically stop, turn and start chasing, but then it just turns into a chasing battle. Who cares. Chasing is boring. It's not stimulating. When I'm caught up in a furball against a good pilot, my blood starts rushing. I get excited. I make lots of control inputs in an attempt to outmaneuver my foe. If I get outmaneuvered, I'm screwed. Yes, I know that I'm known for flying medium ships. Ships that aren't as maneuverable as light fighters, and can't take or deal the punishment of the heavies, but that's my choice. I don't care for flying light fighters. I like flying fighters that by nature are hard to use. So that does this mean? Sure, I don't win as often as people who fly only IBGs or Proms, but I think each win is more satisfying for me because I was able to overcome all of my fighter's disadvantages.

But with maneuverable turbo, this whole dynamic changes. If I get outmaneuvered while turboing, what's stopping me from letting off the turbo, turning much faster than I would otherwise be able to, and starting to turbo again? And for the player being chased, he doesn't need to try to outmaneuver his opponent to gain a fighting advantage. He can simply stop turboing, flip over, and fire back. The chance of getting outmaneuvered is nearly gone.

Personally, I really don't want to see anything even approaching airplane flight-sim or X-Wing physics touch Vendetta. It's cliched. It's less realistic than the system we have now. And honestly, if I wanted to play a game with flight-sim or X-Wing physics, I would play a flight sim or X-Wing. At least flight sims work with something that approaches real-world data and models how aircraft fly. Those kinds of physics in Vendetta are artificial.

regarding Harry's comment to my post in august: the difference between rolling at turbo and maneuvering at turbo is that when you roll, you roll around the axis that you're thrusting, so the vector doesn't change. When you maneuver, you change your vector.

"But with maneuverable turbo, this whole dynamic changes. If I get out-maneuvered while turboing, what's stopping me from letting off the turbo, turning much faster than I would otherwise be able to, and starting to turbo again? And for the player being chased, he's either limited to just turboing and hoping he doesn't get shot, or he is forced to stop turboing to fire back."

Well if you let go during turbo you lose speed.
So its not a good idea.

"Personally, I really don't want to see anything even approaching airplane flight-sim or X-Wing physics touch Vendetta. It's cliched. It's less realistic than the system we have now. And honestly, if I wanted to play a game with flight-sim or X-Wing physics, I would play a flight sim or X-Wing. At least flight sims work with something that approaches real-world data and models how aircraft fly. Those kinds of physics in Vendetta are artificial."

I don't know what Lord Q was talking about regarding the physics....
This change would actually make it more realistic though.
Right now it just doesn't make sense that you can't move while turboing.
And there's no reason to change the VO physics.
As you accelerate you lose the ability to side strafe as fast.

Reason #1
Engine power is being redirected to the main engines.

Reason #2
The "apparent" maneuverability is reduced because your moving at a faster speed forward so it seems as though you are not strafing as fast.

I only think this would be a good idea if it did not overly change things though.
Which means that we should only be able to maneuver at 5% or 10% what we can now, while at full turbo.
This could even be less because I don't want it to impact racing SOO much that the best ship to race with is the valk.
Though if that's the case.... cool :)

Does anyone from alpha want to tell me why this won't work at all?
Supposing that it wasn't like during alpha and that only 90%-95% max of all engine power is transferred to the main engine.

Oh yea I'm supposing that since I see afterburner's that turbo doesn't run on the Gravwell Engines.