Forums » Suggestions
Make ways to "defeat" runners
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/11212#131775
02:41AM Shapenaji
Well sure, having Arolte as a bad guy can be a good thing. Except that I'd like a way to fight the bad guy.
I WOULD LOVE to fight Arolte, but there is no fighting him, you can't win, you can't stop or even delay it.
I think this is probably the heart of why people are so unhappy with Arolte, and runners in general. They feel like there's no way to "win" a conflict against a runner. I hope to see more missions and other gameplay elements that encourage players not to run from combat, but even when there are more objectives along those lines, it will still be possible for players to continue doing what we find so annoying now: picking a fight, and then running from it. I would expect most combat to follow the mission structures once we have more missions, but there will always be the option for "freeform" combat, which means there will always be the option for players to annoy other players by picking a fight and then running from it.
So, here's a suggestion on a way to "defeat" runners. Change the "kill" count to a "victories" count, and count the following situations as victories, with the combat XP and other rewards (and penalties, such as faction standing loss) associated with player kills in the system today:
1. Destroying a player's ship (what counts for the "kill" count we have now)
2. If two ships have caused damage to each other totaling 25% or more of the sum of both ships' armor, and one ship leaves the sector, then the other ship counts that as a victory.
02:41AM Shapenaji
Well sure, having Arolte as a bad guy can be a good thing. Except that I'd like a way to fight the bad guy.
I WOULD LOVE to fight Arolte, but there is no fighting him, you can't win, you can't stop or even delay it.
I think this is probably the heart of why people are so unhappy with Arolte, and runners in general. They feel like there's no way to "win" a conflict against a runner. I hope to see more missions and other gameplay elements that encourage players not to run from combat, but even when there are more objectives along those lines, it will still be possible for players to continue doing what we find so annoying now: picking a fight, and then running from it. I would expect most combat to follow the mission structures once we have more missions, but there will always be the option for "freeform" combat, which means there will always be the option for players to annoy other players by picking a fight and then running from it.
So, here's a suggestion on a way to "defeat" runners. Change the "kill" count to a "victories" count, and count the following situations as victories, with the combat XP and other rewards (and penalties, such as faction standing loss) associated with player kills in the system today:
1. Destroying a player's ship (what counts for the "kill" count we have now)
2. If two ships have caused damage to each other totaling 25% or more of the sum of both ships' armor, and one ship leaves the sector, then the other ship counts that as a victory.
I don't think having a "lose" struck against his record when running from a fight would stop people like Arolte, nor would relieve the frustration of those forced to deal with him. Still, incentives to keep up the fight should be given, though why would you want to keep on fighting if you are on a rocket rag and run out of ammo is beyond me.
Anyway, the system does know (and tells you) who hit you, so that could be the basis for number two. System records the hit, notes the two players as being "locked in combat" and where, and whoever jumps or dies is declared the loser; the winner scores the regular XP and kill count increase. That would mean that simply hitting a trader who then got away would give you a win, but most of us traders don't really care about our K/D ratio anyway. The fighters, though, would be really loath to receive a loss unless the "bigger picture" (e.g. CTC) is in the way.
Or maybe award a player, in addition to XP, a cash value equal to his opponent's ship, taken from the opponent's stash, potentially depleting it over time? this way you could brag that he's in effect paying you to kill him if he keeps attacking you, and eventually he'd run out of funds and be forced to go trade or do BP to raise more cash. Hmmmm, no, this is more like a deterrent to fight, but I'll leave it up in case it sparks something better in someone else's head.
Also, let's say that once the system knows who hits you, it also determines an XP/cash bonus (in addtion to the current XP award) and gives you a time frame to bag the guy and get the bonus; otherwise, you only get the normal XP.
Anyway, the system does know (and tells you) who hit you, so that could be the basis for number two. System records the hit, notes the two players as being "locked in combat" and where, and whoever jumps or dies is declared the loser; the winner scores the regular XP and kill count increase. That would mean that simply hitting a trader who then got away would give you a win, but most of us traders don't really care about our K/D ratio anyway. The fighters, though, would be really loath to receive a loss unless the "bigger picture" (e.g. CTC) is in the way.
Or maybe award a player, in addition to XP, a cash value equal to his opponent's ship, taken from the opponent's stash, potentially depleting it over time? this way you could brag that he's in effect paying you to kill him if he keeps attacking you, and eventually he'd run out of funds and be forced to go trade or do BP to raise more cash. Hmmmm, no, this is more like a deterrent to fight, but I'll leave it up in case it sparks something better in someone else's head.
Also, let's say that once the system knows who hits you, it also determines an XP/cash bonus (in addtion to the current XP award) and gives you a time frame to bag the guy and get the bonus; otherwise, you only get the normal XP.
My suggestion isn't to give a "loss" to the runner, but rather to give a "win" to the person the runner ran from. Hopefully, that would help relieve their frustration.
Also, the way I suggested it, it would only count as a victory if both ships had damaged each other. This way a pirate won't automatically get a "win" by damaging a trader, they would only get a win if the trader had also damaged the pirate. And it would only count as a win if the total damage done to both ships was equal to 25% or more of the armor of both ships. That means the Behemoth and other ships which have a large amount of armor would be more difficult to "defeat" in this way.
The problem with giving extra rewards for "bagging" someone who damaged you within a certain time-frame, is that it's well nigh impossible to kill someone who won't stay through the fight. So unless "bagging" included some other way to defeat them, it would almost never occur.
Also, the way I suggested it, it would only count as a victory if both ships had damaged each other. This way a pirate won't automatically get a "win" by damaging a trader, they would only get a win if the trader had also damaged the pirate. And it would only count as a win if the total damage done to both ships was equal to 25% or more of the armor of both ships. That means the Behemoth and other ships which have a large amount of armor would be more difficult to "defeat" in this way.
The problem with giving extra rewards for "bagging" someone who damaged you within a certain time-frame, is that it's well nigh impossible to kill someone who won't stay through the fight. So unless "bagging" included some other way to defeat them, it would almost never occur.
The thought has occured to me that we have almost no penalties for losing health. We are just as manuverable and capable at 2% as we are at 100%. In any actuallity, systems would be damaged. Thrust systems. Weapons systems. Life systems! None of these things has any effect on the game at this time however if it were then there would be drastically different outcomes to the problems proposed. As of right now a runner is anyone who gets away. What if you could reduce them to sitting ducks? What if they couldnt get away. Might bring repair beams more to light. I can see evil pierats now. Instead of killing a prey they just leave them to sit perhaps staging an ambush for his/her rescuers. Muahahaha. Ok. Anyway Id like to see this impleented. Not exactly sure as to what the effects should be but the general point has been made.
-Seta Solenk
-Seta Solenk
Now, I've been OOG for a couplea months but the general gist of what Arolte is doing is:
Targeting a specific group that shows up as "red" on his radar, and consistently missile spamming them over and over and over, not getting kills but just annoying them. Maybe lmining their stations or lying in wait since the hive update got rid of the NFZ kill penalty.
First thing to do would be for devs to fix this NFZ problem. Sounds easy enough for me, but then again I'm no programmer.
Anyway, defeating a runner is a simple matter and can be done without any rules or code additions, just the dedication of another player. There are 2 options:
a) Fight fire with fire. Buy the same ship loadout he has and spam him back. "If someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back!" Sure it detracts from what you had planned to do that day, but if you're in a guild you can just designate someone as "babysitter." And have a rotating schedule. Or draw straws. Or duel to see who does it. Or whatever.
b) More specific to Arolte, you can determine when he is on (C'mon Alamar surely you know his usual online times by now) and play at a different time. Better yet, EVERYONE log off when he logs on and let him play by himself. That's a pretty powerful incentive. Far better than quitting the game outright.
Otherwise in the long run the only way to avoid this behavior is to implement some kind of "warpout" delay, which has been discussed before, that will make your ship hold position for 5 seconds before actually warping out. 5 seconds is MORE than enough time to destroy even an SCP.
But if the runner doesn't mind dying then I guess you're kinda stuck. This next solution will require coding but here goes:
Give guides the ability to "Ghost" a player as a punishment. This would create a state where the runner becomes "ghostlike", meaning he can't damage you, no one can damage him, he can't bonk your ship or damage you by /exploding, he can't dock with capships or anything else, but he can still trade and/or mine. And he can still attack bots/bots can still attack him. Kind of like removing the player from PvP interaction but leaving him capable of playing otherwise.
For a temporary fix, this code could set flags for the faction standing system to make the runner essentially have a standing of -500 with all 3 nations, and a member of all 3 nations as far as combat goes. (This standling level would be locked so he couldn't alter it by killing bots or station guards/SF's) That would prevent him being able to damage ANYONE except those who are KOS with their own nations. This is merely a suggestion for the devs on how to do this easily (?) for a short-term fix. (I know that this doesn't help you folks out there who are KOS with your own nation, like I said it's a temp fix.)
Removing the "ghosted" flag would restore you to your normal settings. I don't know if having a player be a member of all 3 nations temporarily would cause the game to crash but it's worth a try I guess.
I try to be helpful.
Targeting a specific group that shows up as "red" on his radar, and consistently missile spamming them over and over and over, not getting kills but just annoying them. Maybe lmining their stations or lying in wait since the hive update got rid of the NFZ kill penalty.
First thing to do would be for devs to fix this NFZ problem. Sounds easy enough for me, but then again I'm no programmer.
Anyway, defeating a runner is a simple matter and can be done without any rules or code additions, just the dedication of another player. There are 2 options:
a) Fight fire with fire. Buy the same ship loadout he has and spam him back. "If someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back!" Sure it detracts from what you had planned to do that day, but if you're in a guild you can just designate someone as "babysitter." And have a rotating schedule. Or draw straws. Or duel to see who does it. Or whatever.
b) More specific to Arolte, you can determine when he is on (C'mon Alamar surely you know his usual online times by now) and play at a different time. Better yet, EVERYONE log off when he logs on and let him play by himself. That's a pretty powerful incentive. Far better than quitting the game outright.
Otherwise in the long run the only way to avoid this behavior is to implement some kind of "warpout" delay, which has been discussed before, that will make your ship hold position for 5 seconds before actually warping out. 5 seconds is MORE than enough time to destroy even an SCP.
But if the runner doesn't mind dying then I guess you're kinda stuck. This next solution will require coding but here goes:
Give guides the ability to "Ghost" a player as a punishment. This would create a state where the runner becomes "ghostlike", meaning he can't damage you, no one can damage him, he can't bonk your ship or damage you by /exploding, he can't dock with capships or anything else, but he can still trade and/or mine. And he can still attack bots/bots can still attack him. Kind of like removing the player from PvP interaction but leaving him capable of playing otherwise.
For a temporary fix, this code could set flags for the faction standing system to make the runner essentially have a standing of -500 with all 3 nations, and a member of all 3 nations as far as combat goes. (This standling level would be locked so he couldn't alter it by killing bots or station guards/SF's) That would prevent him being able to damage ANYONE except those who are KOS with their own nations. This is merely a suggestion for the devs on how to do this easily (?) for a short-term fix. (I know that this doesn't help you folks out there who are KOS with your own nation, like I said it's a temp fix.)
Removing the "ghosted" flag would restore you to your normal settings. I don't know if having a player be a member of all 3 nations temporarily would cause the game to crash but it's worth a try I guess.
I try to be helpful.
I'd reply, but to avoid getting this locked you can contact me at terjekv@izha.uio.no Leber, I'll happily answer your questions via mail.
Due to popular demand, there's a place on the ItaniAlliance forums to continue this discussion if necessary. All are welcome, especially Guides, Devs, Arolte & [BLAK].
Unless it degenerates into personal threats, I won't lock it.
http://www.itanialliance.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=37
You'll need a login ID, but it's open forum and I think most of you guys already have one. Especially you infiltrators. >:/
Unless it degenerates into personal threats, I won't lock it.
http://www.itanialliance.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=37
You'll need a login ID, but it's open forum and I think most of you guys already have one. Especially you infiltrators. >:/
Crybabies All of you!!!
Get over runners, if you can't finish them off you know they'll be back, get them next time, and if you still can't ADAPT!!!
Shapes so fond of saying that, why does YOU F'ing adapt. All of you.
Get over runners, if you can't finish them off you know they'll be back, get them next time, and if you still can't ADAPT!!!
Shapes so fond of saying that, why does YOU F'ing adapt. All of you.
nice and constructive, john.
well, here's my suggestion...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9080
essentially, there would be missiles for use in close combat (easier to use, but short ranged), and missiles for use in long-range combat (harder to use, impossible to use at short range, extremely fast and long ranged). If you never use missiles except to combat runners, you'd use these long range missiles to pop them while they're boosting away. Yes, this would require planning ("Am I going to use missiles mainly in a furball, or am I going to use them as a long range opening or closing shot, and rely on guns for the rest of the time?"), but it would also defeat runners. And it would also open up new support roles for players, by giving them the ability to take heavy fighters to a battle, sit relatively safely a good distance away, and support the close-in fighters with long range missiles.
"Running away" to repair in say, a cap ship fight is a necessity. But running away from a non-official duel is at the least, impolite. The missile suggestion doesn't do anything to directly stop running, but it does give the option to kill the runner, which I think is much more effective (and satisfying) in the long run.
well, here's my suggestion...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9080
essentially, there would be missiles for use in close combat (easier to use, but short ranged), and missiles for use in long-range combat (harder to use, impossible to use at short range, extremely fast and long ranged). If you never use missiles except to combat runners, you'd use these long range missiles to pop them while they're boosting away. Yes, this would require planning ("Am I going to use missiles mainly in a furball, or am I going to use them as a long range opening or closing shot, and rely on guns for the rest of the time?"), but it would also defeat runners. And it would also open up new support roles for players, by giving them the ability to take heavy fighters to a battle, sit relatively safely a good distance away, and support the close-in fighters with long range missiles.
"Running away" to repair in say, a cap ship fight is a necessity. But running away from a non-official duel is at the least, impolite. The missile suggestion doesn't do anything to directly stop running, but it does give the option to kill the runner, which I think is much more effective (and satisfying) in the long run.
I find these, "I hate runners, its not fair!" threads to be a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AND DEV ENGERGY SO STFU!
That's my suggestions CP and the rest of you cry babies
That's my suggestions CP and the rest of you cry babies
...I'm at a loss for words, but oookay, John...
My suggestion? Get good with railguns. :-)
Maybe railgunning the back of someone's ship should do quad-damage.
Maybe railgunning the back of someone's ship should do quad-damage.
Seems we already have a thread on this topic:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11195
I particularly like the "Death shroud"/respawn sickness idea posted there.
On kills/victories... hopefully in the future we will have missions in which running amounts to the same thing as dying in terms of your mission goal.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11195
I particularly like the "Death shroud"/respawn sickness idea posted there.
On kills/victories... hopefully in the future we will have missions in which running amounts to the same thing as dying in terms of your mission goal.