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Gavan's Fantastic Thread o' Moth Nerfing

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Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
Crossed over from Trams Pirate toys thread (which was derailing)

Arolte, have you tested any low drain/high efficiancy energy layouts? The following are layouts that I personally have tested, and are backed up with other pirates own tests (ask anyone who chases moths for a living):

Hog II (infini-boost @ 220, possibly a few updates ago)
Megaposi (the absolute best damage/energy drain weapon in the game)
Orion XGX (along with the sparrow, N2, one of the next best for damage/energy drain)
FC battery

IDF Valk (240 @ 55 drain)
Sunflares (no energy drain)
N2 (one of the best for energy/damage)
FC battery

Centurion Mk II (infiniboost version)
dual Sparrows, dual N2's, dual Orions, etc.
FC Battery

These are three of the most energy efficient layouts in the game when one considers that s/he needs speed as well. None of them are anywhere near a match for a Moth pilot who understands that if they simply boost away and jump through two or three empty sectors that they are free. Never mind the moth pilot who carries mines of any sort.

A moth pilot has to have an accident, do something relatively stupid, or simply have balls bigger than her/his wallet, before they will be caught by a pirate.
Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
And Arolte replied with:

I've taken down Moths in a quad-AAP Hornet Convoy Guardian configuration. A full heavy battery worth of shots can kill a Prometheus instantly in less than 2-2.5 seconds. A heavy battery Hornet CG also has near-infinite boost capabilities. It's all about finding the best combination of energy efficiency and power. I use this configuration exclusively for scouting and chasing purposes, and for good reason too. Others may disagree, or may not want to fly in a Hornet.

I don't know what so say, guys. It's not as hard as you make it out to be. I've managed to do it in 2 sectors at the most. One time I got lucky and did it in 1. The Moth is not a fast ship. Anyway, I'd imagine with other ships you'd easily be able to catch up to a Moth as long as you'd be able to jump at their destination more quickly. Which is why I stress that having a follow command would help immensely. I think only THEN will you see how easy it is to catch up to the Moth.
Jul 24, 2005 roguelazer link
Since when is there such a thing as a Moth II?
Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
Back to normal now:

Arolte I've taken down moths in my AAP IBG. More than once. Yes its easy to take down a moth if they do anything other than boost away from the wh immediately. Should they turn to fight then they're toast.

What role do you play in the game? I'm not flaming, but I just find it strange when most of the statements describing how easy it is to take out a moth come from traders. Ask any pirate in the game and you will get a perfect concencus that they are too hard to kill. We have sat down, and crunched the numbers. Figured out which batteries, with which weapons, with which ships give the best ratios, and then we've tested them.

I really don't know what to say anymore other than that. Obviously you've ran into a few unlucky or severely unskilled Moth pilots.
Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
Thanks Rogue, Moth has been changed to Hog.
Jul 24, 2005 Arolte link
It just sounds like you guys aren't using very good tactics in taking down Moths. No offense, but you really need to adapt.

The ships you listed, with the exception of the Hog, are typically high-drain, low-range fighters. Yes, even with a drain of 55 it might not be enough. That Fast Charge battery won't do you any good either. You'll need a heavy battery to dish out enough damage. Sorry, that's the way it is with armored targets.

Now the Warthog is a great ship. But with only 1 S-Port and 1 L-port it can hardly dish out enough damage per second to take down that Moth. You'll need something more powerful. If you don't like the idea of using a Hornet, or are still having trouble, try using heavier ships like the Ragnarok or Centaur.

I'm not kidding. Those extra weapon ports and the low drain are key in taking down Moths. Remember, battery capacity and damage per second are key factors in taking down big ships like Moths. The easiest loadout I'd say would be to equip it either prox mines or conc mines, and then another weapon of your choice.

Get a good lead on the Moth with your heavy ship. This isn't hard to do at all, considering how you've got an acceleration and speed advantage. Once you're ahead of its path, lay a few mines and watch the Moth slow down or spin out of control. Turn around and unleash hell on him. Boom, free kill. If they escape, repeat again.

If mines don't cut it, there's a huge selection of L-port and S-port weapons you can place in your heavy ship. But be sure the energy drain is kept minimal and don't waste any shots. The ability for these ships to inflict high damage per second will enable you to take down Moths much easier than with a fighter.

My point is you can't expect to hop into any fighter and just chase one down like it's nothing. You need to knock it off course somehow or pounce on it when it hasn't gained enough momentum to zoom past you. Considering the number of options you have, it really isn't that hard. You just need to think differently. Pirating isn't as easy at it used to be, but it's not impossible.

Lastly, don't expect to chase a Moth when it's already halfway across the sector. Let's be realistic here. Any good pirate knows to camp wormholes and stations instead. You're not going to catch any ship while it's halfway to safety and you're 3000m away. I don't care what ship you're in it's not going to happen. Complaining about not being able to get kill that way is silly. You gotta use your brains a little.

I don't know what else to say. That's the only advice I can offer you. I don't pirate at all anymore, but when I used to I didn't find Moth killing to be too hard. Maybe it's because I prefer to fly medium and heavy ships instead. Or maybe I got lucky, like you said. But in either case I tweaked whatever needed to be tweaked and I adapted to the situation. And I have the kills to show for it.
Jul 24, 2005 Spellcast link
""Get a good lead on the Moth with your heavy ship. This isn't hard to do at all, considering how you've got an acceleration and speed advantage. ""

I'd really like to know what you are smoking arolte.

the moth has a turbo thrust of 1500N. there isnt a ship in the game that can compete with it in straight line acceleration, even when the moth is fully loaded with Xith, and with a top speed of 200 nothing has a significant speed advantage over the moth.

if it has more than 500 meters distance from you when you move to engage it, you may as well forget about it, its gone.
Jul 24, 2005 terjekv link
Arolte, how about this, you have a go at my moth. I'll let you know where and when I'm moving and we'll set it up.

no offense, your proposed tactics are pretty much impossible against a good pilot. I don't know who you've been pirating, but they can't have been particularly good. we've tried heavies and they can't chase, you can get lucky and stream the moth but not if the pilot of the moth has a clue.

camping a WH is fine, camping at the moth is coming towards you is really tricky business, since the WH is pretty wide. and with a heavy battery, you can't get anywhere near a chase.

we all know DPE is key, hence HX and megaposi are the weapons of choice. N2s can be useable if you're a good aim, but 66 vs 55 DPE is highly relevant. DPS is important as well, but apart from megaposi, DPS and DPE don't really mix well.

like I said, how about we try this? let me know next time you're online and we can give it a few runs.
Jul 24, 2005 terjekv link
Spellcast, fully loaded with Xith your moth doesn't outaccelerate much of anything, the problem is that it still accelerates pretty well, and that people who carry heavy cargo know they are carrying heavy cargo and take extra precations. personally, I often attack WHs from angles that'll take me to 3K quickly if my moth is overly loaded.

if there is a pirate present, try to spot him, find another approach and go again. I have _never_ been pirated in my moth, even when three BLAKs attacked me for a test run. thing is, rockets are good DPE but they don't really spin the moth from behind... this means that you need to get in front of the bastard and hit its nose, which, realistically, you're not going to do.

I've jumped in next to an infiniboost Cent with HX to track me, and that ship *COULD* tap-boost and fire HX at the same time as it kept up with me. after a wormhole and some sectors and a station, I was down to 30% as I docked. anything heavier than a Hog I laugh at. it's not going to be able to stop me in the sector I'm in, it'll be lucky to get a lead, and by the time it does, I'm gone and they can't chase.

the worst thing is that the moth has made newbies get pirated a lot more. since anyone at 4/0/0/8/4 and anyone mentored or anyone being an alt at 2/0/0/5/2 flies an infiboost moth, the only people to actually pirate with any real probability of success are people lower than that. the moth is the worst thing that ever happend to newbies, and fixing its levels isn't going to solve it, it'll just make it so trading is completly binary. you're screwed up until the moth, and you're untouchable afterwards. sure, you can get away with trading in a maud or a centaur or an atlas x, but, uhm, fully loaded, if a pirate has hunted down moths for a while, he will take down your "light" trade vessel with ease.

nerf the moth, make it so if a pirate sees a moth and a wraith, the choice will be the moth, every single time. right now, unless everything is perfectly set up for you, forget about it, people give up the moth.

(and WH camping, as fun as it might be, is kinda annoying when you have four traders on the server. you basically have to move to C2 to have any hope of seeing more than a moth come to you during a few hours of camping.)
Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
The ships you listed, with the exception of the Hog, are typically high-drain, low-range fighters. Yes, even with a drain of 55 it might not be enough. That Fast Charge battery won't do you any good either. You'll need a heavy battery to dish out enough damage. Sorry, that's the way it is with armored targets.

A Heavy battery, with a ship that has 55 drain, only provides an extra 5 seconds of boosting over the FC. The problem arises when you look at the fact that every battery starts at zero charge after you have jumped from one sector to another. Capacity is now taken out of the equation and the only thing that matters at all is charge rate. Not to mention how much longer you have to wait in order to enter a WH (but if a moth gets to a WH before you its game over anyway). And when it comes to energy weapons, the same concept applies. Once the battery gets below 250, then drain is the only factor left to consider.

Get a good lead on the Moth with your heavy ship. This isn't hard to do at all, considering how you've got an acceleration and speed advantage. Once you're ahead of its path, lay a few mines and watch the Moth slow down or spin out of control. Turn around and unleash hell on him. Boom, free kill. If they escape, repeat again.

Ok, so lets try and figure out a couple of things, First off, how much space you would need to get “a good lead” on a moth in a Rag. A Rag has a top speed of 200, a moth has a top speed of 190. Even at top speed, to get a lead of say, 800 meters or so, you would need over a minute of boosting to get there. And thats only if you managed to somehow get directly in front of him or her on the exact same axis of travel. What if you need to adjust? And what Moth pilot is going to follow a pirate?!?!

My point is you can't expect to hop into any fighter and just chase one down like it's nothing. You need to knock it off course somehow or pounce on it when it hasn't gained enough momentum to zoom past you. Considering the number of options you have, it really isn't that hard. You just need to think differently. Pirating isn't as easy at it used to be, but it's not impossible.

You’ve just listed two options. How is that a large number of options? First off, the moth is extremely difficult to knock off course. Rockets do very little, only nudging them off a little bit, and you’re suggestion conerning mining the thing is just plain ridiculous. Second, yes, sometimes you get lucky and have a moth jump in close to you while you are WH camping. In which case the situation becomes slightly easier. But what about all the other factors? What if the moth has mines? What if they have swarms? You are not going to want to be in front of a moth that has swarms.

Lastly, don't expect to chase a Moth when it's already halfway across the sector. Let's be realistic here. Any good pirate knows to camp wormholes and stations instead. You're not going to catch any ship while it's halfway to safety and you're 3000m away. I don't care what ship you're in it's not going to happen. Complaining about not being able to get kill that way is silly. You gotta use your brains a little.

Thanks for that tip. Was I complaining about that? I can’t remember doing so, but I apologize if I was.

I don't know what else to say. That's the only advice I can offer you. I don't pirate at all anymore, but when I used to I didn't find Moth killing to be too hard. Maybe it's because I prefer to fly medium and heavy ships instead. Or maybe I got lucky, like you said. But in either case I tweaked whatever needed to be tweaked and I adapted to the situation. And I have the kills to show for it.

You have 44 kills. How many are from killing moths? I have just under 1000. And I’ve killed as many moths as you have PK’s. Did you pirate on another alt? If not, then, no offense, but I really don’t understand where this uber-moth killing experience is coming from. The tactics that you are describing do not seem to have any base in actual practice. They don’t even work in theory.
Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
Whoah, other replys. Ok, well then I apologize if any of that was a repeat from previous peoples posts. They weren't there when I started this one :P
Jul 24, 2005 space man 1 link
i cant belive you guys are talking about this .you need to adapt not complain so i just point and laugh
Jul 24, 2005 tumblemonster link
Arolte, I think you're making all this stuff up, because in the real world, it's just not happening like that. I've managed to kill 3 moths on my own, out of 650+ kills, and the only reason I got them was the pilot made a big mistake like turning to, you know, fight back. The other moth kills I've made were in groups, and even a group is no guarantee. I remember spending an evening with 6 BLAKs chasing the same moth back and forth, an we never got him. He had a good time, but we had 6 IDF valks (the best chase ship I've found so far) and still couldn't do him in. Six of, arguably, some of the best pilots in the game couldn't take down a moth who's pilot knew enough to lock the boost.

Moth needs to be nerfed a bit. Drop the top speed to 180, or lower the thrust, or both.
Jul 24, 2005 space man 1 link
how about make a better cargo variant and take the boost to like 170 and an armor variant to 160
Jul 24, 2005 Snax_28 link
Spaceman, if the devs followed your advice, then everyone would be flying the old SCP and the game would die. Adaptation goes hand in hand with evolution/change.
Jul 24, 2005 roguelazer link
Or the old valk... Über maneuverability, 30000hp. :P
Jul 24, 2005 terjekv link
it's kinda funny, people suggesting to adapt. how would people cry if the moth was topped at 140 and pirates yelled "adapt"?

adaption only goes so far. people screamed for "lights" to "adapt" against the 640N SCP. then it got dropped to 595N. then to 565N. then to 535N. I have fought both sides of the SCP as it got adjusted, and even though it took a good long while, the changes where incremental and highly needed.

right now, we have a pretty good balance, combat wise, in the game. most combat ships can be seen fighting on a busy night, this is great. we also see different weapons and different styles, again, great. (que dropping cents to 5-6K armor, but hey, compared to the rest of the issues we've had, it's not huge.)

but look at trading. the Atlas X is used for combat, and the only other trader really used _is_ the moth. no other trade ships are really used. not in grey, not anywhere. we've come a long way with the fighters, time to tackle the traders.

(and yes, I spend quite a lot of time in a moth, and yes, I get hunted by pirates when I do so. UPN usually makes a few stabs at me in grey, although, alone I fear him about as much as hitting a roid. and that's silly, since UPN is a damn fine pirate. )
Jul 24, 2005 Arolte link
In response to a few points...

1. It takes nearly half a sector for the Moth to even reach 160m/s or 170m/s. I don't know how the hell you guys are boosting, but I can easily outrun and jump in front of a Moth if we were to start close to one. Start close to, you say? Wormhole camping IS key. That's how you pirate. It takes a lot of patience. As I said before, you can't expect to outrun any ship that's already halfway to safety. Your expectations are way too high if you think that.

2. In regards to the differences between the FC and Heavy batteries, I wasn't speaking of boosting time. I was talking about the amount of shots you can fire off before running out of juice. It's nearly impossible to kill a Moth with an FC battery if you intend on using energy weapons. Dump 'em and use heavy batteries. With a high damage/sec loadout you can bring a Moth's armor down really quickly. That might mean sacrificing the use of light fighters too. Sorry, not everything can be killed with a light fighter. You'll need to accept that sooner or later.

3. As for my 44 PKs, I only played the game for a little over a month since I got back from the beta. Half of that time was spent botting, trading, and mining to level up. I've reset my character completely twice now during that time, due to nation switching. So no, I'm not going to have thousands of PKs like everyone else. Sorry to disappoint.

4. Of course rockets aren't going to cause the thing to spin out of control. Compare the blast of a concussion mine to the blast of a rocket. One has much greater force for that intended role. You may not like the idea of a weapon that does zero damage, but stopping a Moth dead in its tracks WILL pay off later on. A Moth that's struggling to get back up to speed makes an easy target. Dump the rockets and try something new for a change. Adapt. You're not going to go far if you refuse to change your old ways or decide to play favorites.
Jul 24, 2005 KixKizzle link
Arolte, Seriously? WHAT are you smoking?!!?

I WANT SOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jul 24, 2005 Spellcast link
""It takes nearly half a sector for the Moth to even reach 160m/s or 170m/s.""

yea, but it hits 130 in less than 4 seconds unless it is grossly overloaded. at 130m/s and accelerating it will reach 3k in under 25 seconds in most sectors, 50 seconds if it is in a particulary rocky sector or got a bad jump. 550 energy is simply not enough to line up on it, turbo after it and kill it in 25 seconds.
Even camping a wormhole you have almost no chance of taking out a moth unless it jumps in literally on top of you, and thats assuming its unarmed. if it has mines to drop, you are basically screwed.

'' but I can easily outrun and jump in front of a Moth if we were to start close to one. ''

lets test your little theory arolte. i dont have to work tomorrow, and should be able to log on just about anytime during the day. pick a time. you pick a ship of your choice, 'll grab a moth and fill it with ore, then jump through a WH with you waiting on the other side. we'll do best of 10, and see how many times i get away.