Forums » Suggestions
Okay, I took a fully loaded Behemoth with me through a few storms. Taking this ship up against Valent Assaults and TyCorp assaults in a run of 6700m through asteroids where I have to disable turbo, turn and move...
And I can still out-accelerate and out-run all the bots on my way.
Whats wrong with this scenario? Well, its boring. Either bots need a higher thrust + top speed, which would make them more difficult in normal combat (not necessarily bad) or the behemoth needs a bit reduction so its actually scary to go through them.
Preferrably, I'd want a behemoth to have the same, or a -tiny- bit higher, max speed as the bots, so that it cannot for real just boost and wait for them to be gone.
I really want to feel shivers and be scared when I take a loaded ship like that into a storm packed with bots. I don't want to be able to just press turbo, go straight at them, have them miss, turn, and by the time they are heading towards me again, they are losing distance because I'm faster than their max speed.
And I can still out-accelerate and out-run all the bots on my way.
Whats wrong with this scenario? Well, its boring. Either bots need a higher thrust + top speed, which would make them more difficult in normal combat (not necessarily bad) or the behemoth needs a bit reduction so its actually scary to go through them.
Preferrably, I'd want a behemoth to have the same, or a -tiny- bit higher, max speed as the bots, so that it cannot for real just boost and wait for them to be gone.
I really want to feel shivers and be scared when I take a loaded ship like that into a storm packed with bots. I don't want to be able to just press turbo, go straight at them, have them miss, turn, and by the time they are heading towards me again, they are losing distance because I'm faster than their max speed.
YAAAR! I agree whole heartedly on this issue! The top speed AND excelleration should be nerfed just a touch so that pira-er, um...bots have a better chance of catching them!
Gavan
Gavan
I'm up for the lowering of top speed. Acceleration i don't know about.
Oh yeah, i haven't used it yet so disregard my opinion if that matters.
Oh yeah, i haven't used it yet so disregard my opinion if that matters.
Hmmm... maybe a little bit, but not very much. Long distance bulk missions (even ones that a Moth can do in 1 trip) already take a while in a Moth. Dropping either accel or top speed would make it even longer.
I'd rather see a decrease to its armor.
I'd rather see a decrease to its armor.
If the speed gets nerfed the ship will not be useful as it will easily die from just 1 person.
When getting chased by pirates you can usually get lowered by 1 person down to about 10% (this chase requires a few jumps though). So if the ship was slower the moth would be lucky to make it through 2 jumps w/o getting killed.
This ship isnt all that fast at all and several ships can easily catch it and start pummeling it.
Also your reference of outrunning bots. They are simply bots and any ship can outrun them while at full turbo. Bots also arent the smartest of ships.
So I say the moth s fine and we dont need another thread on the exact same subject.
When getting chased by pirates you can usually get lowered by 1 person down to about 10% (this chase requires a few jumps though). So if the ship was slower the moth would be lucky to make it through 2 jumps w/o getting killed.
This ship isnt all that fast at all and several ships can easily catch it and start pummeling it.
Also your reference of outrunning bots. They are simply bots and any ship can outrun them while at full turbo. Bots also arent the smartest of ships.
So I say the moth s fine and we dont need another thread on the exact same subject.
Its not the behemoth thats the problem, bots have issues flying through roid fields, had a pirate been chasing you and you did that, he would of quickly caught up and fed you a facefull of something nasty.
The beh really should go down in accel a bit, though. That would give the maud a bit more hold on life, plus re-emphasize the fact that the Behemoth is a BIG, SLOW ship.
RE: Snax_28
That's just because you couldn't fire and turbo after my, (Calder's) behemoth the other day in your little Valk;).
That's just because you couldn't fire and turbo after my, (Calder's) behemoth the other day in your little Valk;).
I can outrun those bots in an EC88
Nerf the bus.
Nerf the bus.
Word!! Bus is too fast!! NERF IT!
When a Behemoth can take on a Valkyrie AND WIN, it's a little weird. I think it has a little too much acceleration. (not a lot, mind you.)
-:sigma.SB
-:sigma.SB
(watches dev's cut thrust in half)
Personally, I like the Behemoth as it is now. It's meant to be mainly a trading ship, not a fighting ship, and it's difficult even to dock it as is because of its lower maneuverability.
Dropping the acceleration will make it vulnerable to pirates in small fighters, because of the Behemoth's lower maneuverability. It will become a huge sitting duck for pirates with Neutron Blaster III's or Sunflares in Centurion IBG's.
Dropping the speed will additionally make it vulnerable to pirates in medium ships, such as the SkyCommand Prometheus, who will then use turbo-shoot Sunflares to attack it at high speed from behind.
Dropping the maneuverability, although probably a better alternative than the other two, will make it even more difficult to dock. Just today, I witnessed one player who claimed to hate the Behemoth complain about how it was reportedly too difficult to dock.
I agree that it is strange if a Behemoth can take on a Valkyrie and win, but I think that that is because Valkyries are currently over-nerfed. Just today, one player called the Valk a "coffin." It's not because of a problem with the Behemoth.
Recently, I fought a pirate in a SkyCommand Prometheus with the Behemoth, and tried to blast him away with Chaos Swarms, but he got my armor down to 7% and almost killed me. I couldn't do any damage to him because of my low maneuverability, and barely escaped alive. Had the acceleration or the speed been any lower, that 7% would easily have become 0%. The only thing that could have possibly been reduced would have been the maneuverability, and even that is dubious.
Please don't ruin the Behemoth as a useful trading ship, and please make the Valkyrie a decent alternative to the Centurion. I have asked several players about the Valkyrie, and all have said that it is inferior to even the Centurion for battle, despite its higher required Combat license. The Valkyrie needs to be un-nerfed and given more thrust.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Dropping the acceleration will make it vulnerable to pirates in small fighters, because of the Behemoth's lower maneuverability. It will become a huge sitting duck for pirates with Neutron Blaster III's or Sunflares in Centurion IBG's.
Dropping the speed will additionally make it vulnerable to pirates in medium ships, such as the SkyCommand Prometheus, who will then use turbo-shoot Sunflares to attack it at high speed from behind.
Dropping the maneuverability, although probably a better alternative than the other two, will make it even more difficult to dock. Just today, I witnessed one player who claimed to hate the Behemoth complain about how it was reportedly too difficult to dock.
I agree that it is strange if a Behemoth can take on a Valkyrie and win, but I think that that is because Valkyries are currently over-nerfed. Just today, one player called the Valk a "coffin." It's not because of a problem with the Behemoth.
Recently, I fought a pirate in a SkyCommand Prometheus with the Behemoth, and tried to blast him away with Chaos Swarms, but he got my armor down to 7% and almost killed me. I couldn't do any damage to him because of my low maneuverability, and barely escaped alive. Had the acceleration or the speed been any lower, that 7% would easily have become 0%. The only thing that could have possibly been reduced would have been the maneuverability, and even that is dubious.
Please don't ruin the Behemoth as a useful trading ship, and please make the Valkyrie a decent alternative to the Centurion. I have asked several players about the Valkyrie, and all have said that it is inferior to even the Centurion for battle, despite its higher required Combat license. The Valkyrie needs to be un-nerfed and given more thrust.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
I actually agree, and I have chased a few moths for the hell of it, the turbo speed on that thing should be 170. When I jump in a moth I know i am getting where I am going, that isnt right, by the devs own words, *this universe should never be a safe place* this isnt care bears 'r' us. it is safe enough. personally I can make it through storms in a ec88 *doing the free batt wiggle* 90000m with Arklan chasing me, but the moth is like too much.
Re: yodaofborg
What were you chasing the Behemoths in? The Behemoth stands little chance against a SkyCommand Prometheus. If you ask me, the SkyCommand Prom really needs to be nerfed as well if the Behemoth is to be nerfed. I almost got blown away by one of those super-Proms the other day.
You're just trying to say, "I don't like the Behemoth because I'm a pirate, and I want to pirate Behemoths more easily."
If you nerf the Behemoth, people will just switch to the Tunguska Centaur Aggresso to get to places. That's what I used to do. The Behemoth should be a special-purpose trading ship not suitable for fighting.
If you need to change the Behemoth, make is less maneuverable, then, so it can't fight, but can only trade. The Behemoth is already supposed to be an advanced trading ship, available only to traders of Trading Level 8 and Mining Level 4 or higher. It's supposed to be a little better than inferior trading ships because it requires higher licenses to fly.
Every ship should be good at one task, and the elite ships should excel at their assigned tasks--that's what makes them elite, after all. The Behemoth was designed as an elite trading vessel. If you make it unsafe even for trading, then what will the hard-working traders be left to hope for?
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
What were you chasing the Behemoths in? The Behemoth stands little chance against a SkyCommand Prometheus. If you ask me, the SkyCommand Prom really needs to be nerfed as well if the Behemoth is to be nerfed. I almost got blown away by one of those super-Proms the other day.
You're just trying to say, "I don't like the Behemoth because I'm a pirate, and I want to pirate Behemoths more easily."
If you nerf the Behemoth, people will just switch to the Tunguska Centaur Aggresso to get to places. That's what I used to do. The Behemoth should be a special-purpose trading ship not suitable for fighting.
If you need to change the Behemoth, make is less maneuverable, then, so it can't fight, but can only trade. The Behemoth is already supposed to be an advanced trading ship, available only to traders of Trading Level 8 and Mining Level 4 or higher. It's supposed to be a little better than inferior trading ships because it requires higher licenses to fly.
Every ship should be good at one task, and the elite ships should excel at their assigned tasks--that's what makes them elite, after all. The Behemoth was designed as an elite trading vessel. If you make it unsafe even for trading, then what will the hard-working traders be left to hope for?
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
okay, two cents here, the Behemoth requires teamwork. it's that simple. and this is a good thing. if you don't have anyone to team up with, ignore it or poke at it and hope someone pays.
it's hard work, aye, but it's also 120cus and a lot of cargo. what _are_ you going to do with that on your own anyway, unless you're flying a moth as well?
it's hard work, aye, but it's also 120cus and a lot of cargo. what _are_ you going to do with that on your own anyway, unless you're flying a moth as well?
I think the giant turd is fine also, maybe a slight reduction in its accel, but not in its top speed, as its slower than all of the fighters.
@Solra Bizna: What exactly do you mean by a Moth winning against a Valk? If you mean the Moth can successfully run away, then I disagree, I think that's OK (two Valks should take it down, though). If you mean the Moth can win a stay-and-fight-to-the-death fight, then I disagree that it would win; the Valk would win that, easily.
To: terjekv
> okay, two cents here, the Behemoth requires teamwork. it's that simple. and
> this is a good thing. if you don't have anyone to team up with, ignore it or poke
> at it and hope someone pays.
Teamwork is indeed a good thing, but it should go both ways: If you want to take down a Behemoth, you should need to team up with someone, too. Nobody should be guaranteed of taking down a Behemoth single-handedly; that task should require a minimum of two pirates, not one. Now that would be real teamwork.
To: yodaofborg
> I actually agree, and I have chased a few moths for the hell of it, the turbo speed
> on that thing should be 170.
No, definitely not 170, because a SkyCommand Prometheus already has a turbo speed of 220 and an armor of 21000; reducing the Behemoth to 170 m/s would make it a sitting duck for a *single* SkyCommand Prom (which is probably exactly what you really have in mind, but hey, that's going too far).
Personally, I think that the Behemoth is fine as is, but if you really feel you must ruin a fine ship, then the lowest that you could possibly reduce the turbo speed sensibly to would be 180 m/s. In that case, don't reduce the acceleration or maneuverability. That would give the Behemoth the same turbo speed as a Tunguska Mineral Marauder, which is already unsafe for trading in gray space. It is so slow that it can't even earn trading bonuses for either special delivery or non-bulk intra-system trading guild delivery missions (the ones where you have two minutes to plot a multi-point course around an asteroid field, avoiding ion storms, within the same system), and is only really useful for trading in nation or UIT space.
Because of potential piracy, I never trade in any ship with a turbo speed of less than 200 m/s in gray space, because then I would be a sitting duck for any pirate in a SkyCommand Prometheus (and there are many of those).
But I'd really rather keep the Behemoth as it is now.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> okay, two cents here, the Behemoth requires teamwork. it's that simple. and
> this is a good thing. if you don't have anyone to team up with, ignore it or poke
> at it and hope someone pays.
Teamwork is indeed a good thing, but it should go both ways: If you want to take down a Behemoth, you should need to team up with someone, too. Nobody should be guaranteed of taking down a Behemoth single-handedly; that task should require a minimum of two pirates, not one. Now that would be real teamwork.
To: yodaofborg
> I actually agree, and I have chased a few moths for the hell of it, the turbo speed
> on that thing should be 170.
No, definitely not 170, because a SkyCommand Prometheus already has a turbo speed of 220 and an armor of 21000; reducing the Behemoth to 170 m/s would make it a sitting duck for a *single* SkyCommand Prom (which is probably exactly what you really have in mind, but hey, that's going too far).
Personally, I think that the Behemoth is fine as is, but if you really feel you must ruin a fine ship, then the lowest that you could possibly reduce the turbo speed sensibly to would be 180 m/s. In that case, don't reduce the acceleration or maneuverability. That would give the Behemoth the same turbo speed as a Tunguska Mineral Marauder, which is already unsafe for trading in gray space. It is so slow that it can't even earn trading bonuses for either special delivery or non-bulk intra-system trading guild delivery missions (the ones where you have two minutes to plot a multi-point course around an asteroid field, avoiding ion storms, within the same system), and is only really useful for trading in nation or UIT space.
Because of potential piracy, I never trade in any ship with a turbo speed of less than 200 m/s in gray space, because then I would be a sitting duck for any pirate in a SkyCommand Prometheus (and there are many of those).
But I'd really rather keep the Behemoth as it is now.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
the top speed is fine.. but the turbo thrust needs to be reduced some... when turboing you hardly feel the mass of the ship. cut its turbo thrust down to 1100 (double its regular thrust) As it is now its got 1500 turbo thrust.. It actually can out-accelerate half the fighters when its empty..
EDIT
(for those of you who doubt my claim, do the math.. several samples are below. It actually accelerates better than any non-variant centurion when empty.)
Thrust / Mass / Ship
590 / 10000 / SCP prom thust to mass ratio.. 5.9/100
220 / 3900 / Vulture 4 thrust to mass ratio.. 5.6/100
215 / 5600 / Warthog 4 Thrust to mass ratio .. ~3.8/100
210 / 4500 / Centurion mk1 Thrust to mass ratio .. ~4.6/100
215 / 4500 / Centurion 3 thrust to mass ratio.. ~4.7/100
1500 / 30000 / Behemoth Thrust to mass ratio .. ~5/100
EDIT
(for those of you who doubt my claim, do the math.. several samples are below. It actually accelerates better than any non-variant centurion when empty.)
Thrust / Mass / Ship
590 / 10000 / SCP prom thust to mass ratio.. 5.9/100
220 / 3900 / Vulture 4 thrust to mass ratio.. 5.6/100
215 / 5600 / Warthog 4 Thrust to mass ratio .. ~3.8/100
210 / 4500 / Centurion mk1 Thrust to mass ratio .. ~4.6/100
215 / 4500 / Centurion 3 thrust to mass ratio.. ~4.7/100
1500 / 30000 / Behemoth Thrust to mass ratio .. ~5/100