Forums » Suggestions
i start with the assumption that most of the fun in VO happens at higher levels and that most players will try to race through their first, say, five levels as quickly as possible, since at low levels they don't have easy access to much of the equipment necessary to participate meaningfully in the game, even if they already possess the skills to use it. if you disagree with this, speak up. :)
my main character is UIT; however, i periodically consider starting a Serco character for various reasons. the main reason why i don't, though, is that the prospect of having to work my way through the first few levels all over again makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. building levels has been annoying enough as a UIT, and i'm still locked out of a fair amount of content; the idea of being stuck in a bus again (sorry genka) fills me with horror.
if the purpose of the first few levels are to teach newbies the basic skills necessary to play the game, then this is a lesson that an individual should only have to learn once. thus, i propose that if N is the highest level in any skill that a player has with any of his characters, any other characters should be given no less than N-1 (or maybe N-2) in that same skill.
thus, if, say, my main character is 3/4/3/3/0 and i start an alternate character, i'd like that character to begin with 2/3/2/2/0. say i bot some more with my main character and raise combat piloting to 4; my seconary character's combat piloting should be raised to 3. if i mine like a madman with my secondary character, once that character's mining skill gets to 2, my primary's skill should be raised to 1.
(of course, in the grand scheme of things i don't really see the point of license levels as they are currently implemented; as long as most of the gameplay is only possible at higher levels, they're just anti-fun devices. but as long as we're going to have levels, this suggestion would at least alleviate their negative effect in one area and, as far as i can tell, wouldn't have any negative effects of its own.)
my main character is UIT; however, i periodically consider starting a Serco character for various reasons. the main reason why i don't, though, is that the prospect of having to work my way through the first few levels all over again makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. building levels has been annoying enough as a UIT, and i'm still locked out of a fair amount of content; the idea of being stuck in a bus again (sorry genka) fills me with horror.
if the purpose of the first few levels are to teach newbies the basic skills necessary to play the game, then this is a lesson that an individual should only have to learn once. thus, i propose that if N is the highest level in any skill that a player has with any of his characters, any other characters should be given no less than N-1 (or maybe N-2) in that same skill.
thus, if, say, my main character is 3/4/3/3/0 and i start an alternate character, i'd like that character to begin with 2/3/2/2/0. say i bot some more with my main character and raise combat piloting to 4; my seconary character's combat piloting should be raised to 3. if i mine like a madman with my secondary character, once that character's mining skill gets to 2, my primary's skill should be raised to 1.
(of course, in the grand scheme of things i don't really see the point of license levels as they are currently implemented; as long as most of the gameplay is only possible at higher levels, they're just anti-fun devices. but as long as we're going to have levels, this suggestion would at least alleviate their negative effect in one area and, as far as i can tell, wouldn't have any negative effects of its own.)
Yes, what a good idea. Then griefers can have spy characters and teamkillers all leveled up and ready to go.
[rejected]
[rejected]
The point of licens levels is to make the game more fun not less fun. the theory is that you will have more of a sence of acomplishment if you had to work to get to where you are. Also down the road several things are planed that woul;d require some sort of controle (capitle ships, player owned stations, crafting, etc.).
i think a counter perposale would be this:
You have to tag one charactor as your primary charactor. Then whenever you make a new charactor that new charactor starts with levels equal to half your primary charactor's levels. After creating a charactor thoug it levels up as usual.
For example:
I make a Secro charactior that i tag as my primary, it's levels are 4/6/8/5/2
Then i make a new UIT charactor it's levels will be 2/3/4/2/1
If i level up one charactor it has no further efect on the other
That way i get a bit of a jump on leveling up new charactors but they don't get a free ride.
i think a counter perposale would be this:
You have to tag one charactor as your primary charactor. Then whenever you make a new charactor that new charactor starts with levels equal to half your primary charactor's levels. After creating a charactor thoug it levels up as usual.
For example:
I make a Secro charactior that i tag as my primary, it's levels are 4/6/8/5/2
Then i make a new UIT charactor it's levels will be 2/3/4/2/1
If i level up one charactor it has no further efect on the other
That way i get a bit of a jump on leveling up new charactors but they don't get a free ride.
Oh cool. so you mean that all characters I create from now on have FastCharge battery, Serco Guardian Vulture and Any arms except for the Sunflares?
Neat.
For the sarcasm impaired. : No.
Neat.
For the sarcasm impaired. : No.
I for one like this idea, and i'll tell you why. It's actually quite simple, I realy realy realy realy realy realy don't like botting, it's boring and ball breaking and allways the same (this is my personal opinion tho). I spent way too much time botting to get my UIT character at some descent standing. Now i have created a Serco and Itani character some time ago to do some ctc, cause i don't want to get involved with my main character. Guess what, my Serco char is still around lvl 3 and my Itani around lvl 2, just because I hate botting. Thats why I like this idea, or, they would have to give weap xp for pvp.
@Spider:
just out of curiosity, why shouldn't they? i mean that completely seriously. you're an experienced player and you've put in lots of hours. why should you have to pretend to be a n00b if you want to start another character?
just out of curiosity, why shouldn't they? i mean that completely seriously. you're an experienced player and you've put in lots of hours. why should you have to pretend to be a n00b if you want to start another character?
How about this for a solution...
Make botting or whatever activities are needed to level up sufficiently different and interesting that people will not mind the work.
Another solution would be to restrict people to one character. Actually that eliminates a bunch of problems, but I doubt you guys will want to commit to one side or another...
Make botting or whatever activities are needed to level up sufficiently different and interesting that people will not mind the work.
Another solution would be to restrict people to one character. Actually that eliminates a bunch of problems, but I doubt you guys will want to commit to one side or another...
I guess I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented if the devs want to put in the work, but definitely as an option.
The reason: sometimes I like to create level 0 players so I can get an idea for what a newb will experience when he/she first starts the game. I look at it as mentoring homework.
The reason: sometimes I like to create level 0 players so I can get an idea for what a newb will experience when he/she first starts the game. I look at it as mentoring homework.
my main gets full treatment, combat level 10. all others only to 4. or even less. I just wont bot on those much.
To Lord Q:
> i think a counter perposale would be this:
>
> You have to tag one charactor as your primary charactor. Then whenever you
> make a new charactor that new charactor starts with levels equal to half your
> primary charactor's levels. After creating a charactor thoug it levels up as usual.
Why make the primary character fixed? Why not automatically tag the most advanced character as the primary character at the beginning of each login session?
IMHO, I would feel dissatisfied with any permanent primary character. Sometimes I might want a mood change.
For example, perhaps I would first feel peaceful and have an Itani character escorting transports in CtC as my primary one for one month, then feel greedy and switch to trading vigorously in a UIT character for one month, then feel sadistic and switch to killing newbies and traders in a Serco character for another month.
Along the way, as mentioned in my other thread, "Multiple Message Board Profiles & Personalities" ( see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9120 ), I still think that it would give more variety to the role-playing experience to be able to have corresponding completely independent message board profiles. Isn't Vendettaź Online, by definition, supposed to be a "role-playing game?"
IMHO, it's not fun being stuck in a mold. Not being able to switch main characters/message board profiles is precisely being stuck in a mold.
That's not really role-playing.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> i think a counter perposale would be this:
>
> You have to tag one charactor as your primary charactor. Then whenever you
> make a new charactor that new charactor starts with levels equal to half your
> primary charactor's levels. After creating a charactor thoug it levels up as usual.
Why make the primary character fixed? Why not automatically tag the most advanced character as the primary character at the beginning of each login session?
IMHO, I would feel dissatisfied with any permanent primary character. Sometimes I might want a mood change.
For example, perhaps I would first feel peaceful and have an Itani character escorting transports in CtC as my primary one for one month, then feel greedy and switch to trading vigorously in a UIT character for one month, then feel sadistic and switch to killing newbies and traders in a Serco character for another month.
Along the way, as mentioned in my other thread, "Multiple Message Board Profiles & Personalities" ( see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9120 ), I still think that it would give more variety to the role-playing experience to be able to have corresponding completely independent message board profiles. Isn't Vendettaź Online, by definition, supposed to be a "role-playing game?"
IMHO, it's not fun being stuck in a mold. Not being able to switch main characters/message board profiles is precisely being stuck in a mold.
That's not really role-playing.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
I personally are of the belief that we shouldn't even have multiple characters (for reasons I've described many, many times), so I guess my opinion doesn't count.
To roguelazer:
> I personally are of the belief that we shouldn't even have multiple characters (for
> reasons I've described many, many times), so I guess my opinion doesn't count.
In that case, why does the current system even allow selecting from a row of characters at every login session? This possibility is what gave players the idea of having a more sophisticated multi-character system in the first place.
It's almost impossible to prevent having multiple characters in any event. A really determined role-player could simply purchase multiple accounts, and at $10/month per account, could have two or three accounts simultaneously for almost the same price as a single account with some other on-line games.
This effectively raises the price for role-playing for the remaining players, who will then start purchasing multiple accounts to compete. Eventually, new players will start feeling frustrated that they either have to pay more, or miss out on some of the experience.
To prevent this frustration, why not just add a multiple profile option for the RPG, and a customizable screen name for the message boards? Just let players choose between creating new characters at either level 0, or at one below their current main character for each type of skill.
That way, Lord Q could keep from missing out on the fun, and Phaserlight would still be able to re-live the newbie experience for mentoring newbies with their viewpoint in mind.
To simplify message board management, simply let the screen name be customizable for a *single* profile. That way, players could simply change the screen name every time they wanted to post messages as their in-RPG personalities.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> I personally are of the belief that we shouldn't even have multiple characters (for
> reasons I've described many, many times), so I guess my opinion doesn't count.
In that case, why does the current system even allow selecting from a row of characters at every login session? This possibility is what gave players the idea of having a more sophisticated multi-character system in the first place.
It's almost impossible to prevent having multiple characters in any event. A really determined role-player could simply purchase multiple accounts, and at $10/month per account, could have two or three accounts simultaneously for almost the same price as a single account with some other on-line games.
This effectively raises the price for role-playing for the remaining players, who will then start purchasing multiple accounts to compete. Eventually, new players will start feeling frustrated that they either have to pay more, or miss out on some of the experience.
To prevent this frustration, why not just add a multiple profile option for the RPG, and a customizable screen name for the message boards? Just let players choose between creating new characters at either level 0, or at one below their current main character for each type of skill.
That way, Lord Q could keep from missing out on the fun, and Phaserlight would still be able to re-live the newbie experience for mentoring newbies with their viewpoint in mind.
To simplify message board management, simply let the screen name be customizable for a *single* profile. That way, players could simply change the screen name every time they wanted to post messages as their in-RPG personalities.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
For the last time, no. This does not help RPG, it hurts it. It lessens in-character immersion, and it enables things like griefers switching nations to kill foes without any standing loss. This is no longer a simple Deathmatch game, but a complex RPG. If you feel the need to have a secondary character, don't expect to have all your work done for you. You can't be an Itani and just create a Serco player and expect to be able to be killing Itanis with no delay. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to at all. This game is seriously lacking immersion, and it wouldn't help if everybody was able to effortlessly switch sides at any time. Never mind the host of other problems it'd bring that we had in the CTF days when levels didn't exist. Your idea would essentially negate all leveling and return us to a pre-beta state. And /that/ is a conversation that we've already had many, many times.
I think something was miss understood about my perposal i never ment for the "primary charactor" to be fixed. i figured it could be changed at will in the select character screen. As such if you want to create a low level charactor you could tag your lowest level charactor as primary and then the new one will be half it's levels.
I also think that choosing between a 0 level charactor and one half as high as your primary is a good idea.
Anyway, the point is you shouldn't have to make your primary charecter
permanent.
roguelazer,
This wouldn't eliminate leveling it would make it less tedious for those of us who hate mindless leveling. If you like leveling you can create a 0 level charactor, but if you don't than should you choose to make a new character you get one that is half as advanced as your primary character. You still have to work to get to where you were before and you still start out broke, and with default standing eithor way.
I also think that choosing between a 0 level charactor and one half as high as your primary is a good idea.
Anyway, the point is you shouldn't have to make your primary charecter
permanent.
roguelazer,
This wouldn't eliminate leveling it would make it less tedious for those of us who hate mindless leveling. If you like leveling you can create a 0 level charactor, but if you don't than should you choose to make a new character you get one that is half as advanced as your primary character. You still have to work to get to where you were before and you still start out broke, and with default standing eithor way.
Roguelazer, oddly enough I find that I agree with you. This is basically a bad idea.
In all fairness, I should state out-front that I have characters in all nations, and I
have been slowly working them all up "through the ranks" as it were. I agree with
several who have posted under this topic that the leveling up process is absurd.
One even referred to it as "ball-busting." I will add that to my next "Rationalize
Leveling" rant when (or if) I post it...
In all fairness, I should state out-front that I have characters in all nations, and I
have been slowly working them all up "through the ranks" as it were. I agree with
several who have posted under this topic that the leveling up process is absurd.
One even referred to it as "ball-busting." I will add that to my next "Rationalize
Leveling" rant when (or if) I post it...
check out any mmorpg on the market and see if you can get multiple top 10 chars just from out of nowhere. No, you have to work hard to get one to top 10. And if you want the other in the top 10 then you need to start it all from scratch.
I know that it sucks, but that is for once the case in an rpg. And mostly that is actually the way of retaining people that have seen all.
If only the devs woud finally put in some distinct differences between all the nations. Since that and that alone would make it worthy to do the effort of levelling another char, just to be able to see that neutral -sercan vulture.
Meaning you keep the same stats as all the ships have now. Then you add a certain modifier to every race. Meaning you are from the beginning an itani, and every ship you own gets from this normal base a +5 to cruise speed and a +10 to turbospeed but a -1000 armorpenalty.
Or you are a UIT person as your primary choice and you get the valk, now this valk has an increase of 5 in speed and a increase in 3(x) of cargo
while if you are serconian from the start you get a decrease in speed of 5, in turbo of 10 and get an increase in hps of 1000.
This would give each nation a special feel, and make it actually worthwhile to do the effort of levelling another char up. Add to that the increased immersiveness of new missions and levelling will not be boring but fun. Imagine the story of baldurs Gate2 or planescape torment within a spacegame. And that is then something that I would dare to call an innovation in the market of the mmorpgs, not to mention that if the devs can pull something like that off, they will be miljonairs. Since really how many games(even singleplayer) have even come remotely close to the splendid immersiveness of the ruler in the rpg games. Not even nwn with his supreme graphics or diablo with their craftingengine came even remotely close. Nor gothic. Although these are all singleplayer games. But im sure that wow nor guildwars will even aspire to that. Although guildwars is coming very close to being very very darned nice. Since I can't tell the times I have fired up a new game of baldurs gate and played it till the end...
I know that it sucks, but that is for once the case in an rpg. And mostly that is actually the way of retaining people that have seen all.
If only the devs woud finally put in some distinct differences between all the nations. Since that and that alone would make it worthy to do the effort of levelling another char, just to be able to see that neutral -sercan vulture.
Meaning you keep the same stats as all the ships have now. Then you add a certain modifier to every race. Meaning you are from the beginning an itani, and every ship you own gets from this normal base a +5 to cruise speed and a +10 to turbospeed but a -1000 armorpenalty.
Or you are a UIT person as your primary choice and you get the valk, now this valk has an increase of 5 in speed and a increase in 3(x) of cargo
while if you are serconian from the start you get a decrease in speed of 5, in turbo of 10 and get an increase in hps of 1000.
This would give each nation a special feel, and make it actually worthwhile to do the effort of levelling another char up. Add to that the increased immersiveness of new missions and levelling will not be boring but fun. Imagine the story of baldurs Gate2 or planescape torment within a spacegame. And that is then something that I would dare to call an innovation in the market of the mmorpgs, not to mention that if the devs can pull something like that off, they will be miljonairs. Since really how many games(even singleplayer) have even come remotely close to the splendid immersiveness of the ruler in the rpg games. Not even nwn with his supreme graphics or diablo with their craftingengine came even remotely close. Nor gothic. Although these are all singleplayer games. But im sure that wow nor guildwars will even aspire to that. Although guildwars is coming very close to being very very darned nice. Since I can't tell the times I have fired up a new game of baldurs gate and played it till the end...
@roguelazer:
i'd be happy with either a) not being able to have more than one character or b) a solution similar to the one i proposed; i'm simply frustrated by the current situation, which seems only to maximize tedium. botting for hours (or worse yet, taking advantage of some XP exploit) in order to gain access to the equipment necessary to participate meaningfully in most of the game does not, imho, help immersion at all.
as i actually am (based on my experience and observations so far) in favor of doing away with the levelling system as much as possible, i'm interested in hearing about any potential pitfalls of doing so (other than "it will lead to rampant griefing" - i agree that that's the problem, but i don't think that the levelling system is the appropriate fix). i get the sense that this is an old, well-trodden argument, but i haven't been able to dig it up using the (admittedly broken) forum search function. do you have any links that you can point me to?
@Renegade:
the argument that other mmorpgs do it a certain way holds no water with me; i think the bulk of mmorpgs out on the market are broken by design, and a significant part of what attracts me to VO are the ways in which it is different from "traditional" mmorpgs.
if, as i've heard a number of times, the most significant difference between players in VO is supposed to be their personal skill rather than the quality of their equipment, then the levelling system seems directly opposed to that goal.
i'd be happy with either a) not being able to have more than one character or b) a solution similar to the one i proposed; i'm simply frustrated by the current situation, which seems only to maximize tedium. botting for hours (or worse yet, taking advantage of some XP exploit) in order to gain access to the equipment necessary to participate meaningfully in most of the game does not, imho, help immersion at all.
as i actually am (based on my experience and observations so far) in favor of doing away with the levelling system as much as possible, i'm interested in hearing about any potential pitfalls of doing so (other than "it will lead to rampant griefing" - i agree that that's the problem, but i don't think that the levelling system is the appropriate fix). i get the sense that this is an old, well-trodden argument, but i haven't been able to dig it up using the (admittedly broken) forum search function. do you have any links that you can point me to?
@Renegade:
the argument that other mmorpgs do it a certain way holds no water with me; i think the bulk of mmorpgs out on the market are broken by design, and a significant part of what attracts me to VO are the ways in which it is different from "traditional" mmorpgs.
if, as i've heard a number of times, the most significant difference between players in VO is supposed to be their personal skill rather than the quality of their equipment, then the levelling system seems directly opposed to that goal.
It's been said time and time again that the current levelling system is expected to take a sideline to the mission system.
Also, I'd love to see an MMORPG which lets you wear all the equip after 20 hours or so play.
Also, I'd love to see an MMORPG which lets you wear all the equip after 20 hours or so play.
haka,
I agree to an extent, but the reason why levelling up is boring is because the missions are boring. The first time you do a mission it was fun and excitting. But doing that mission like 200 times just to gain a new level is annoying at best.
Fix the missions and youll fix the tediousness. Missions should be there to entertain you not present as a way of advancement. Or at least the licences should be tests of your 'skill', and some missions would help you in building it up. Or at least makes it easier to build it up. In stead of the threadmill that it is.
But how to do that, I really have no clue. However griefing will happen anyway, but the best way to stop it is by having inside controll and not with making levelling tedious. Since it are not only the new people that grief, it are also vets that consider themselves to be better then the newbies that grief. And in the last case, having this tediousness within levelling does not solve that.
However you can always make missions available to give access to different weapons(not better, just different) in stead of higher levels. But there will always be a certain amount of levelling needed to to distinguish the chaff from the wheat. Just to get the feeling of the game and the backstory. You just have to make sure that no matter how long you have played, you are just as competetive. Meaning after level 6 in everything, the changes are just eyecandy, and it should not matter if you use a valk or a vult to take on a valk or a vult. You just use the missions to keep people interested, and have pvp to make people feel competetive.
I agree to an extent, but the reason why levelling up is boring is because the missions are boring. The first time you do a mission it was fun and excitting. But doing that mission like 200 times just to gain a new level is annoying at best.
Fix the missions and youll fix the tediousness. Missions should be there to entertain you not present as a way of advancement. Or at least the licences should be tests of your 'skill', and some missions would help you in building it up. Or at least makes it easier to build it up. In stead of the threadmill that it is.
But how to do that, I really have no clue. However griefing will happen anyway, but the best way to stop it is by having inside controll and not with making levelling tedious. Since it are not only the new people that grief, it are also vets that consider themselves to be better then the newbies that grief. And in the last case, having this tediousness within levelling does not solve that.
However you can always make missions available to give access to different weapons(not better, just different) in stead of higher levels. But there will always be a certain amount of levelling needed to to distinguish the chaff from the wheat. Just to get the feeling of the game and the backstory. You just have to make sure that no matter how long you have played, you are just as competetive. Meaning after level 6 in everything, the changes are just eyecandy, and it should not matter if you use a valk or a vult to take on a valk or a vult. You just use the missions to keep people interested, and have pvp to make people feel competetive.
@UncleDave:
i certainly hope that's the case. :)
in some games, getting more equipment is a significant part of the gameplay; there is such diversity and depth of stuff to find/win/make/buy that it can occupy players for months. in such an environment, an elaborate levelling scheme makes sense; however, VO is not such a game. the diversity of the equipment is comparable to that of, say, Unreal Tournament rather than Diablo or Baldur's Gate or whatnot (this becomes even more obvious once one realizes that maybe 2/3 of the equipment in VO is "training wheels"-type stuff that is useful only to n00bs because they're not allowed to have anything better).
i certainly hope that's the case. :)
in some games, getting more equipment is a significant part of the gameplay; there is such diversity and depth of stuff to find/win/make/buy that it can occupy players for months. in such an environment, an elaborate levelling scheme makes sense; however, VO is not such a game. the diversity of the equipment is comparable to that of, say, Unreal Tournament rather than Diablo or Baldur's Gate or whatnot (this becomes even more obvious once one realizes that maybe 2/3 of the equipment in VO is "training wheels"-type stuff that is useful only to n00bs because they're not allowed to have anything better).