At the moment the def bots scare enough people to stop them from venturing too much into enemy space. But as time goes on more people will become comfortable with traveling through KoS territory. Then some of the players with less scruples will start camping stations and killing newbs.

Now for a while I was hopping that this wouldn't be an issue. That it would be too difficult to do for a large enough group of people, but today I chased a vet (yodaofborg) around a Serco station (with my -1000 serco faction rating) for a decent amount of time before I finally managed to kill him. Now I can understand it if there are a few players that can pick on newbs even with Def bots on their backs... but if def bots can't save someone as good as Yoda...

At this point I would suggest looking at alternate methods of protecting new vendetta players. There is probably a while before enough people become skilled enough to ignore the def bots so I think we should look at alternate methods of providing enough time for new players to adjust to the game and controls before having to deal with possible griefers.

To that ends I'd like to re-suggest an idea that I believe Asp originally posted.
Create a small (1 system?) relatively safe, low profit, sub universe which only offers beginner combat missions and trade missions until the first trade level. Don't let any players damage each other in this(these) system(s). Then have ONE-WAY wormholes leaving this area. Allow new characters to choose which nation they want to join by deciding what wormhole to use. This allows them to choose after having experienced the game a bit and possibly receiving additional information about each of the nations.

this is a really good idea!!!!

That's a pretty good idea.

It's got two problems.

1) It wouldn't actually solve the problem. People would almost certainly leave the puny-verse rather quickly, or at least, long before they were as skilled as yodaofborg.

2) It would be rather difficult to explain the existance of the puny-verse in a way that isn't completely game like. About the only thing I can think of is calling the puny-verse something like 'the academy' and making like it is a simulator. Obviously, you'd want to kick players out of the academy after a while. Also, this doesn't explain whats going on when the player chooses a faction.

I think the defense bots are boring. Two is not enough to provide a realistic defensive perimeter. The defense bots equipment (if its anything like previous versions) is too uber to provide alot of fun fighting. And having them instantly respawn is kinda yucky too.

It would be nice to get the stationary turrets back.

It would be nice if defense bots had high quality but 'realistic' equipment (meaning things that would be avialable to PC's).

It would be nice if it took 10 minutes or something for defense bots to respawn.

It would be nice if most stations had 4 or so defense bots, and capitals had like 8.

It would be nice if defence bots patrolled sectors containing wormholes.

It would also be nice that if you started a fight around a station or wormhole, every 10 minutes or so it would spawn a faction strike force (say a half-dozen IDF Valks with NB3's for the Itani) which would warp in to clear out any hostiles, hang around for a few minutes, and then warp out again.

Obviously, I've got more issues than just protecting the n00bs - important thought that may be. I'd like to see more of the faction vs. faction fighting that we had during Alpha. While it could be a wee bit tedious to be outnumbered 12:1 during Alpha when Arolte and the Gold came to raid 4, some of the most interesting fights I had in Vendetta involved station defence when 2-3 Blues would protect thier turf against a raiding force of Red or Gold. We protect the n00bs too much and we loose that. The thing that Vendetta really shines in is PvP. We want to encourage not discourage this sort of thing.

In response to the smaller universe idea, to make it fit, when the new player spawns they are given all the system data for the system they spawn in except for one major thing, wormhole sector locations/waypoint icons. For storyline sake this could be passed off as "The (insert nation here) do not feel you are ready to venture out into the universe, and as such we will not give you nav data untill you can prove your abilities." Start tutorial, blah blah blah, ok now do combat, and trade, ok you have lvl 1 in both those? here ya go nav data! New player is now free to move about the universe. But make it known to them that unless they are in their nation home sector few if any defense bots will come to their aid, instead the only safe havens are stations with their beam turret (read dev cannon :D ) and some lightly armed station gaurds.

I feel this will allow for newbies to get to know the game in a almost 100% protected enviroment (make it impossible to get past the first wh near nation capital space by ANY faction, this may require some route around that area of space to calm the UIT down for possibly cutting off trade routes or something) and allow for the serco itani war to actualy exist far beyond what we have now, for instance regularly schedualed (like CTC) serco incursions into itani space. And likewise Itani border defense missions. With the winners getting some cool prize/money.

Nya13:
You clearly underestimate our players. yoda isn't a newbie in any regards, and Eldrad is even less so. If Eldrad says he's capable of running outside a station with the defbots in heel and killing somone meanwhile, I quite believe him.

Why?

Because I've done it myself.

yes, defbots aren't enough. They make a good first level shakeout and annoyance. turrets would just be more of the same and even less annoying, since they can easier be dodged. the super-stats of the defbots don't make them invincible. (Heck, you can kill them in a stock bus!)

Now, I don't know a good fix to this, spawning more and different defbots would only partially fix it. Fixing the bot AI would do some, but not enough to solve this altogether. We can always outwit an AI.

perhaps a solution would be to fire some uber-seekers from turrets? It'd certainly make things more.. interesting.

But overall, I don't know an easy fix, but I agree with Eldrad. Its too easy to stick around with the bots. They serve as a great incentive to chase somone off who's been mucking about and got into the no-fire zone, but they don't serve well enough to chase off somone who's set on harassing players.

Subject: noob sector-

I think it would be good, but there would have to be one for each nation. As stated b4 the noobs would be able to learn in a worry free environment and have a one way warp out.

Nation space then could be more hostile. Def bots could be made in limited numbers so 2-3 people could not get in,(average people) but 5-6 could break through the defenses. This would inspire more group coordination and group combat.

Subject: Nya13

Your post is rude and really has no value. If Eldrad says he killed Yoda in a bot protected sector I believe him. 1) he has no reason to lie and 2) if you have ever fought him you know he can do it.

As for your unfounded assumptions, you do not know what happened. Eldrad was there and unless Yoda comes along and disputes him, those are the facts.

and its possible to evade the current def bots indefinitly. I tried it yesterday with a centurion IBG with f/c and remained in A serco protected area for over 2 hours, not easy but possible.

In further posts please be more polite and explain your thoughts clearly so we might have a hope of understanding them.

Defbots are terrible, limit the game, make it annoying to do any military stuff and should be vanquished.

but i like the newb sector idea

Better AI: Right now the bot AI seems to me adequate for the hive bots, which probably don't need to be all that challenging except in the presence of a Queen. It's not adequate for simulating a peer type foe like a faction's military forces.

If my experiences fighting hive bots are any indication, one thing that would make def bots a bit more challenging is if they coordinated to some extent. If 'smart' AI's instead of occupying the same frontage, tried to spread out abit by turboing off to the flank while there wingman stayed on your nose, it would greatly increase the complexity of fighting them. It's fairly easy to dodge fire coming from one direction. Dodging it from multiple directions is much more difficult.

It would also be interesting to develop rocket equipped bots that would use real 'boom and zoom' tactics.

A few def bots with Gemini's couldn't hurt either.

The point being is that while hive bots should be like hordes of orcs, def bots should be made as much like PC ships as possible.

As far as super weapons like dev beams and fast homers, it would be reasonably cool to have a weapon turret module that could be built into stations and would mount a major capital ship level weapon. Military stations at least ought to get one or two of these.

"i wanted to explain that Station's bot are powerfull and will attack everyone and they probably attacked Yoda too (if he tried to fight back Elrad). If he didnt. so he was probably running around station until Elrad got him."

The bots are powerful, but they don't try to attack "everyone". Only people who engage in prohibited hostile activity in their space. More on that below.

"I am serco and if i try to fight back at station vs an agressor.
this stupid bots will stab me."

The trick is to wait until the agressor actually DOES something. If another pilot is behaving aggressively toward you, do nothing until they actually hit you or somebody else. The bots will deal with them by making them temporarily KoS. If they actually kill someone then their standing will decrease to the point where the bots will KoS permanently and the station will not allow them to dock. I think you allowed yourself to be tricked into losing your standing.

Nya13: I've been trying to be polite, but since the forum moderator got involved and there's still been no change here, allow me to be blunt.

You need to listen more and talk less. You have absolutely no status whatsoever to be contridicting a respected and elite pilot like Eldrad's version of events, especially after he has been repeatedly backed up by other pilots. It's clear you are very new here, that you are probably young, and that whatever else you are very confused and inadvertantly rude. If you must talk, please make your statements in the form of a question. In this way, you might learn something.

"Isnt it easier to make impossible to attack green people and make bots attack only red pleople?"

Easier, yes. Solve the problem, No.

But...the bots have a reason for being there.

Let's try it this way: You, Nya, own a factory that manufactures food. You would like people to come and buy your food. Initially customers come to buy from you, but they are immediately gunned down upon leaving your factory. Sales would suffer, right? So the bots are there to protect the business interests of the station. The stations need supplies in and manufactured goods shipped out. You aren't supposed to fight there. There is a logical in-game reason for them to behave in this way (although there are other shortcomings).

What would be the in-game explanation for making it impossible for players to attack green targets? Some sort of anti-violence chip?

While I doubt that bots would have a visual radar display, I think that when you violate the rules for the sector, they see you as red. You must have violated the "no combat" rule in their space, and you were at least temporarily red as far as they were concerned.

EDIT: Okay you've posted again. What you must understand is that when you attack a pilot in a no-combat zone, you are a red target as far as the bots are concerned. The game is working exactly as you ask.

Nya, I believe yoda was trying to get Eld killed by the defbots, and hence running around. That's why Eld was able to catch him. If you're trying to get THEM killed, then they may have time to kill you.

Eld, I want to know how you did it, the seekers always get in too close, with their funky ultraboost. I spose I could try dodgin them, but they seem to have some wicked directional change.

nya13: "this a forum of suggestions."

Ok, it's beginning to be clear that part of the problem is that English is not your native tongue.

In neither your 3:20pm or your 5:15pm post did you make anything like a suggestion. Instead you attacked the integrity of one of the most skilled pilots in the game, and you did so in a way that made it clear to everyone else that you didn't know what you were talking about. You are off topic in this thread, and you are not contributing to it.

Could we stop fighting for a bit. There is a significant issue being discussed and the personal attacks are not helping the thread or the issue.

Everyone, let's try to reduce the tension. I'm not at all offended by Nya's comments.

Nya, the problems you're talking about are slightly different than the ones I mentioned. I did do all the damage to Yoda, the bots did not attack him because he did not hit me. He was trying to dock as quickly as he could but I was able to get between him and the dock such that if he had continued he would have been killed. He could not escape to another station because he was carrying the CTC cargo which only allows you to dock in the station we were fighting at.

Cele,
1. I agree that it would not solve the problem as you described it. But that is not what I see the problem as. I believe that the problem would be if new players are having to deal with death before they are able to learn and enjoy the game. A player who steps out of the dock and is looking at their keyboard to try to find the acceleration key is most likely going to quit if they get killed before they know up from down. Where as if a player who has completed a couple missions, knows how to dock comfortably, maybe even knows how to barrel roll or other basic dodges, gets attacked in such a way they are far less likely to get discouraged. They will instead do things like ask for help try different methods of escaping what have you.
Basically once they've gotten hooked on the game they're less likely to quit over early on bumps/troubles.

2. You're right. Silly explanations getting in the way of better game play. = P
As people have pointed out if you separate it into 3 different areas, one for each nation. I said it as one because it addresses other problems that were more prevalent at the time this was originally suggested.

Nya,
There are two things Defense bots do. They attack any player who they have caught killing a player they like AND they try to stop any fights right by the station.
If you kill a player who is not admired by them they don't particularly care they will chase you away from the station but that is all. As far as the first goes it basically works the way you are suggesting it should. The problem with the second is it's impossible to determine who is the "aggressor". If there is a gun fight outside a police station the cops aren't going to sit around asking who shot first they're going to tell everyone to put the guns down, Vendetta cops aren't so nice, they just make sure the gun's down by killing you.

The issue with that is A) What if a "green" player does something you don't like, for example attacks your Convoy in Capture the Cargo. Also what happens when you are red to a player who is green to you. Then they can hurt you and you can't hurt them. Further more pirates would no longer be able to pirate some people, and some pirate hunters then wouldn't be able to deal with those pirates.

I think a game should never out right ban a possibility, such as killing a player inside a station area, rather only make them more challenging, thus the guard bots. There should always be a possibility.

It is the possibilities that make the game great.

How about a human player defense guild?

It seems unnecessary now, but i bet as a greater population becomes skilled a guild will have to be devoted to the protection of worm holes in to a faction to protect against harassment.

I think this could add an interesting spin from the game.

On the topic of fairness, however, I agree, deff bots are not enough, but then again, how long will it take someone to beat out what ever replaces the deff bots?

my 1/2 cent...

so basically if I'm Itani, but then want to double cross another Itani the game won't let me? That destroys the idea of this game.

This game is a "you control what happens" type of game.

I would never want to be a spy or sabotage pilot, but I'm sure that some game player would, and he should be able to.

That is what makes the game great.

That said, with respect I entirely disagree with Nya, although I understand what he is arguing.

I managed to replicate Eldrad's feat minus the killing yoda (dropped yoda to about 40%).

This is a lot of fun, but Eldrad is right, stationbots are ineffective.