Arolte complained that the game's structure, at this point, does not give us many choices when it comes to choosing our ships. Heavy ships are neutered and all batteries other than Fast charge basically suck.
So, this isn't about nerfing the valk, or fattening up the vult, or weakening the gauss, it's about brainstorming. What do we do to make the heavy ships better.

I say, more energy efficiency. Since heavies are harder to aim with and harder to run away with, they need to be able to fly for the long haul. So either a heavy class battery, or a special modifier to heavy ships that gives them all better battery life for their weapons and turbo.

D'oh, suggestions forum would be better place.

=)

/me prods the Forum Moderator

There are two different approaches to "heavy" weapons: 1) Make larger batteries to accommodate larger intakes for heavy weapons, or 2) Make "heavy" weapons more efficient than light weapons, and keep the same battery.

1 is better in the long run, but 2 might be a quick fix for us. Frankly, we do need large port batteries and engines for the Ragnarok, Centuar, and Prometheus. We also need heavy weapons that are turreted, fire faster and at higher velocities, and are able to acquire and hold targets quickly and easily. With the wobble in a Ragnarok, the only useful small-port weapons are the sunflares and geminis. Forget about aiming gauss/tachs/rails in something like that. The large port weapons are nerfed (with the adv. gatling and swarms being the exceptions).

However, changing all the stats for the weapons might be troublesome, so efficiency (2) might be the quick fix. Cut the energy usage for the gatling in half, cut the energy requirement for screamers. This would allow the heavies to use their weapon while using fighter-class batteries and still be playable. However, it is ludicrous to see a Ragnarok using the same engine/battery as a Valkyrie. I think we should go back to the light/medium/heavy engines being specific to certain ship classes.

The problem with that is where do you draw the "heavy" line. For example, since it has a large, many people call a warthog a heavy. But a warthog with equipment like that... would be scary. And the Wraith, it's a bomber, and bombers are heavy. But a wraith is by no means "heavy"...

Hmm, the Wart Hog is essentially a flying gun. Perhaps retarding its health a wee bit would be more realistic. The Wraith is very heavy, if you've ever flown one. It's a sitting duck. But i agree, the line is rather ambiguous and arbitrary, but nothing that a few adjustments can't fix.

"D'oh, suggestions forum would be better place."

-Um. . . oops.

I envision 3 classes of ships. Light, medium, and heavy.
Light would be th cent, valk, vult.
Medium is: Warthog, Atlas, Hornet, Maud.
Heavy is: Wraith, Rag, Prom, Centaur

Did I miss any?

3 different classes, 3 different engine/batt types for each. Makes sense, after all, you wouldn't interchange engines between a semi and a Sentra. And it promotes balance.

I still feel that the best way to balance the heavier ships out would be to split the power generation and the power storage functions of our batteries. Give each ship a number of "power storage" slots depending on how large it is. while every ship has a "power generation" slot. Make all generators store a base amount of power (say 250) and have that amount be how much a wormhole jump takes up. then you can add additional power storage to the storage slots, giving larger ships more energy storage. You could have the storage batteries come in small (150 extra power) medium (300 extra power) and large (450 extra power) for varying costs. Some form of mass system would help balance out the differences in the various storage and generation units as well, but thats another idea that i still havent fully worked out yet.
I would expect the following ships to have no storage slots and be forced to use the base 250 for everything)
Bus, Centurion
I would figure these ships to have 1 storage slot
vulture, warthog, wraith, atlas, maud, and valk
I would expect the rag, prom and centaur to have 2 storage slots.

since the storage units are only good for increasing your maximun energy level, you still have limited turbo, but a rag with 2 heavy storage units would carry a total of 1150 power. plenty of energy to sustain a long volley of fire or turbo away to try to escape.

A few points you're missing here, toshiro...

1. This is not a deathmatch only game. It's supposed to have elements of an RPG mixed into it. If you're ever going to encourage multiple roles in Vendetta, those heavy ships are gonna need to be beefed up seriously. Otherwise at this rate we'll be seeing fighter pilots only. Right now it's pretty much Vultures and Valkyries fighting each other over and over, with the occasional trader who flies around in a Ragnarok or Centaur that keeps losing money and cargo to some pirates. Somehow I think this isn't what the devs had in mind.

2. This is not a WWII combat flight simulator. It's a science fiction game. It may have elements of WWII style dogfighting, but it is by no means an imitation of real life. Comparing a Ragnarok to a B-17 is pointless. The Ragnarok is a fictional ship. The Ragnarok doesn't have multiple gun turrets that are armed by other players. The Ragnarok doesn't carry bombs and neither does it bomb any targets. I find your analogy to be poor for these reasons and more.

3. Heavier ships have the ability to house larger engines and hold more "fuel". While their acceleration rate may be slower than fighters, due to their high mass, their larger engines and fuel capacities allow them to go at a faster speed over longer distances. That's how motherships/capital ships/frigates have always been portrayed in science fiction. The fighters always have to dock inside a larger ship because the larger ship has better life support systems as well as faster speeds over large distances. It's a comparison of endurance and top speed, not acceleration.

4. Everybody keeps talking about how a fighter should take down a bomber 100% of the time. However, anyone who has watched Star Wars knows it's the exact opposite. Cruisers, battlehips, frigates, etc. have the advantage of defense, while fighters NEED additional support to take down such a large ship. A group of fighters (minimum of 2 or 3) should be required to take down a single bomber, not the other way around. The larger the ship becomes, the harder it should be to take down. The advantage of the fighter, on the other hand, is its higher maneuverability and acceleration, making it a hard target to hit.

In summary:

Light ships--high acceleration, high agility, low top speed, low aimbot weapons
Heavy ships--low acceleration, low agility, high top speed, high aimbot weapons

i would like to point out what has been said in previous threads (too lazy to dig em up):

a bomber or a trader is not meant to take down a fighter single-handedly. it just isn't.
now that we have group chat, we have the infrastructure to create interdependent groups.

e.g. a pack of promethei needs a flight of vultures to provide fighter cover.

[moved]

SirCamps, I disagree. If any ship needs nerfing of the hull it would be the Vulture and Valkyrie. The Warthog is probably the only other useful non-special ship right now. It's balanced in that it can't chase anyone down with an advanced gatling turret, so it's essentially for defense purposes only. I like to think of it as the mini-Prometheus.

Toshy, I disagree. It's not about one on one battles. It's not about a bomber boosting towards a fighter and destroying it. It's about survival. The bomber should have bigger and higher endurance engines than a fighter, so therefore it should be able to get away quickly or at the very least have better defensive weapons to keep the fighters at bay. In other words someone who chooses to be a Ragnarok pilot shouldn't have to die every single frickin' time they warp into a neutral sector and encounter a Valkyrie.

Basically anything from the Hornet above is a flying target right now. Anything except the medium/fast charge combo and maybe the efficient/fast combo is a useless engine configuration. There is very little in the game to encourage playing the role of bombers and heavy assault vessels because they die too easily. The only thing that makes these heavier ships bearable is the heavy/heavy combo, but as we all know a Valk fitted with a medium/fast will eat these ships for breakfast. Not in terms of combat, but simply flying through the sector harmlessly!

I think the devs should consider revisiting the old way of how weapons were handled--level 1 and level 2 lasers on the fighters, level 3 (and level 4?) weapons on the bombers. Higher agility ships such as fighters would be given weak weapons, whereas lower agility ships would be given access to stronger weapons. Unfortunately I wasn't around at the time of this early test version, but it sounded like a cool concept to me.

rolly, i was talking about survival.
the chances of survival would be increased manifold if people would form packs and convoys.

the infrastructure is there.

I agree with Toshiro.

Arote, sure, someone who brings that Rag into a sector shouldnt die just because they meet a valk. But, if they just stopped to ask 3-4 other ships to come with them first and all the cargo ships did a run together, they wouldnt die if 1 ship attacked because one ship would have to be stupid to attack.

They can even group with traders they meet up with along the way, same nation or not...

I still disagree. If someone wants to be a lone pilot I think they should be given that option. Not everyone wants to play soldier as a team or do things "for the good of the nation." There are some people who want to work alone and I think everybody needs to respect that. This IS partially a roleplaying game and I think that's one of the main points that's missing from Vendetta right now. And you're right, a single bomber still won't be as effective as a squadron attacking a target, but someone who chooses to TRAVEL with a Ragnarok alone shouldn't die every single time they get out of their home sector. I consider this to be a serious flaw that makes Vendetta into a fighter-only deathmatch game. Heavy ship pilots should be able to survive on their own as long as they don't treat it like a fighter and engage in combat head-on.

???

And they do. I trade soley in heavies, yet all my deaths are from the times that I get in a light...

Could you perhaps provide more details in your case study rather than jumping to conclusions with a single line of text?

For me anytime I'm in a heavy, even a hornet with a heavy/heavy combo, and a Valkryie comes into the sector, I always get overrun and rocket rammed in the end. I literally have to make it outta the sector or wormhole jump back and forth to avoid any Valkyrie within radar range. After that I gotta haul ass to the nearest station or get back to my home sector where it's safe, because eventually that Valk or Vulture will catch up to me with its medium/fast combo and high acceleration.

Now, since you're Itani there are fewer Valkryies to worry about and you've probably never really encountered one in your particular situation. Wow that's great, talk about luck. But it does nothing to point out the problem that others have been having.

May I offer a suggestion? How 'bout you participate in an experiment yourself:

1. Switch to a Gold Nation account.

2. Purchase a Ragnarok with a heavy/heavy combo.

3. Do a full circuit around all the sectors while Valk pirates are logged on.

4. Don't attack any of 'em, just go straight through each sector and see if you can make it across.

5. Come back and post your results.

Even as a pirate with a tri-tachyon Valk I can tell you how easy it is to hunt down Centaurs. Unless they're near their home sector they're dead meat. It's so easy to outrun 'em and destroy it's not even funny. This is partially the reason why so many traders are complaining about having too many pirates. It's not the pirates themselves that's the problem, it's the balance of ships/weapons/engines that's contributing to it.

toshiro, I agree that a heavy ship shouldnt be able to win against a fighter, HOWEVER it should have some advantage to balance out it's inability to dogfight. giving it extra energy, or a better engine, or some form of better defense to hold off a fighter would do that, allowing it to have a chance to RUN AWAY. Right now it is impossible to escape, because the power curve is the same for all ships. If you attempt to run, your power runs out at the same time the chaser runs out, with longer turbo time (from a more efficient engine or a larger power reserve) a heavy ship could leave a pirate behind, increasing the chance to get away.

"Right now it is impossible to escape, because the power curve is the same for all ships. If you attempt to run, your power runs out at the same time the chaser runs out, with longer turbo time (from a more efficient engine or a larger power reserve) a heavy ship could leave a pirate behind, increasing the chance to get away."

-That's what I was getting at.

Yes, Spellcast. Thank you!

/me hugs spellcast

Eww. Heavy/heavy. That's a dogfighting combo. I only use it when I'm dual-railing.