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The current CapSwarm turret damage is excessive for a "defensive weapon". As capship combat has not been implemented yet, there is no need for that level of damage except attacking capships.
It has been 4 months since Capitol Rail cannons were changed due to excessive firepower in a combined arc.
"that the caprail specifically would be overpowered,"
A single CapSwarm turret does 24k damage which can take out every single ship that could possibly attack a capship. That is a bit excessive and significantly lowers the chance of danger to the capship.
"But it should be understood that Capital Ships are not yet in a place where they are configurable enough, from the developer side, to be rolled out as assault-craft."
4 capswarms on a dent at the current damage level is pretty much an assault craft. ( 96k of damage from a single shot of all 4 simultaneously ). The only ships in the game that can repel that damage level are Teradons, Connies, Capellas and HACs all which are NPC only.
There are the facts presented with the math to back it up.
It has been 4 months since Capitol Rail cannons were changed due to excessive firepower in a combined arc.
"that the caprail specifically would be overpowered,"
A single CapSwarm turret does 24k damage which can take out every single ship that could possibly attack a capship. That is a bit excessive and significantly lowers the chance of danger to the capship.
"But it should be understood that Capital Ships are not yet in a place where they are configurable enough, from the developer side, to be rolled out as assault-craft."
4 capswarms on a dent at the current damage level is pretty much an assault craft. ( 96k of damage from a single shot of all 4 simultaneously ). The only ships in the game that can repel that damage level are Teradons, Connies, Capellas and HACs all which are NPC only.
There are the facts presented with the math to back it up.
-1 adapt and overcome. If you find an issue, find a way to mitigate it. Devtime is precious nowadays.
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I don't believe this assessment is very forward looking, nor is it in-line with the scale of the weaponry/craft. Rather than nerf the cannon, it'd be better to limit the grid on the Dent, like on the Goli. Although, I don't agree with that either.
I don't believe this assessment is very forward looking, nor is it in-line with the scale of the weaponry/craft. Rather than nerf the cannon, it'd be better to limit the grid on the Dent, like on the Goli. Although, I don't agree with that either.
It takes a few seconds to change the value back, I think they can spare a few seconds.
This assessment is inline with the quotes from Inc regarding capships.
This assessment is inline with the quotes from Inc regarding capships.
You didn't seem to infer what Raybondo actually said, while it takes a few seconds to change the values, the time needed to fix any bugs caused by or associated with the change is substantial.
A change back to an old value is hardly unexplored, as it has been set before. So barring accidentally typing 0.0042 instead of 0.4200 (or whatever randomly-chosen value it was) I really do not see any unforeseen consequences.
But -1
Make em stronger!
But -1
Make em stronger!
+1
Reason: Same reason the cap rails were nerfed. Cap ships are not supposed to be able to deshield other capships. At least not yet.
But keep their green trails. We need more pretty colors in the game (before something goes boom)
Reason: Same reason the cap rails were nerfed. Cap ships are not supposed to be able to deshield other capships. At least not yet.
But keep their green trails. We need more pretty colors in the game (before something goes boom)
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A Dent should be able to defend itself from being deshielded and destroyed by any single ship in anyones fleet. If you think you need more to attack one, then get some buddies and have at it. Why should something as big as a Dent have to run from a single Rag or any other ship.
A Dent should be able to defend itself from being deshielded and destroyed by any single ship in anyones fleet. If you think you need more to attack one, then get some buddies and have at it. Why should something as big as a Dent have to run from a single Rag or any other ship.
No one is saying you can't defend your dent against small ships. What is being stated is that one dent should not be able to deshield another dents with capswarms alone. The old capswarms had enough damage.
Well I guess consistancy in game play is out the fucking window.
...for now.
I open to continued feedback on why and why-not. I will comment on this much:
- Changing the damage value back is not a problem for the game. I'm not worried about other secondary issues.
- Threads like this are best when they also provide a link back to the original discussion that caused the increase in damage in the first place, for context.
- I had also considered dealing with this by increasing Grid requirement of the capswarms, rather than nixing their damage.
- In all cases, the point of the discussion (and this forum) is to try and discuss things, and not just complain when insufficient people agree with you. Find another way to approach your argument, a different way to state your point of view.
- Changing the damage value back is not a problem for the game. I'm not worried about other secondary issues.
- Threads like this are best when they also provide a link back to the original discussion that caused the increase in damage in the first place, for context.
- I had also considered dealing with this by increasing Grid requirement of the capswarms, rather than nixing their damage.
- In all cases, the point of the discussion (and this forum) is to try and discuss things, and not just complain when insufficient people agree with you. Find another way to approach your argument, a different way to state your point of view.
Original Thread requesting CapSwarm Buff: https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/33817?page=1
And to save a bit of reading here is the basic reason:
"These changes are intended to make this more of an anti-capship weapon"
So I refer you back to my points in the OP.
Either we have capship combat or we don't. Going by INC statements mentioned in the OP we don't, therefore this should be a no brainer to return them to original damage values.
And to save a bit of reading here is the basic reason:
"These changes are intended to make this more of an anti-capship weapon"
So I refer you back to my points in the OP.
Either we have capship combat or we don't. Going by INC statements mentioned in the OP we don't, therefore this should be a no brainer to return them to original damage values.
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The majority of players in this thread do not want the damage nerfed. I will also join their ranks.
Capship combat does exist. I used my dent to defend i8 from Teni's dent. In a different battle, I almost had my dent destroyed by A-Dawg in his dent and you, Wash, in a hound. I have also been trying to get better at using my capship to fight serco dents at the edras blockade, which is still no easy task. Capital swarms were instrumental in all those battles, and none of them were an "easy" victory despite the high swarm damage. The damage makes sense against another capital ship.
Furthermore, given the relatively slow speed of the swarms, they're not much of a threat for smaller, more maneuverable ships. They're more of a deterrent. In fact, when I do land a hit on a fighter, it's usually one or two of the missiles, which not enough to destroy them. If a fighter or bomber is foolhardy enough to run straight into an entire stack of missiles, they deserve to be blown to smithereens. So, in fact, the only ships being hit by stacks of swarms for their full damage are capital ships, which is their intended use.
Increasing the grid would only handicap goliath captains more, considering the recent decrease in goli grid power.
Maybe when Inc makes it so that capital ships can fire all their turrets simultaneously without gunner bots we can discuss dropping the damage. For most of us, we have to cycle through our turrets manually and fire off the swarms, making a stack even more difficult.
The majority of players in this thread do not want the damage nerfed. I will also join their ranks.
Capship combat does exist. I used my dent to defend i8 from Teni's dent. In a different battle, I almost had my dent destroyed by A-Dawg in his dent and you, Wash, in a hound. I have also been trying to get better at using my capship to fight serco dents at the edras blockade, which is still no easy task. Capital swarms were instrumental in all those battles, and none of them were an "easy" victory despite the high swarm damage. The damage makes sense against another capital ship.
Furthermore, given the relatively slow speed of the swarms, they're not much of a threat for smaller, more maneuverable ships. They're more of a deterrent. In fact, when I do land a hit on a fighter, it's usually one or two of the missiles, which not enough to destroy them. If a fighter or bomber is foolhardy enough to run straight into an entire stack of missiles, they deserve to be blown to smithereens. So, in fact, the only ships being hit by stacks of swarms for their full damage are capital ships, which is their intended use.
Increasing the grid would only handicap goliath captains more, considering the recent decrease in goli grid power.
Maybe when Inc makes it so that capital ships can fire all their turrets simultaneously without gunner bots we can discuss dropping the damage. For most of us, we have to cycle through our turrets manually and fire off the swarms, making a stack even more difficult.
@Spry
Capship combat does exist
If you refer to the direct quote form Inc capship combat is not officially implemented.
Reference Link
Returning capswarms to their original damage will make things like taking stations and attacking other capships much less effective as it should be until capship combat is officially supported.
Capship combat does exist
If you refer to the direct quote form Inc capship combat is not officially implemented.
Reference Link
Returning capswarms to their original damage will make things like taking stations and attacking other capships much less effective as it should be until capship combat is officially supported.
I'm more of a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mindset. As more content is added into the game, I don't want to have to remember to come back around to change the value again, and potentially cause more controversy.
I would only support a nerf if cap-swarms were being used to disrupt game play (i.e., like when swarms could be put on a greyhound or when trident batteries could be put on regular ships). But no one is out there in a dent using swarms to completely dominate a battle. A solo dent can deshield another solo dent, which seems fair. But, as you said, the more powerful NPC capships can repel the damage. Yes, a fighter/bomber who takes an entire stack to the face will explode. But so what? As Inc says: "Guided missiles, for all their fire-and-forget nature, have a prominent and loud warning, and have no guarantee that they will all reach the same place at the same time." A coordinated group of players would have no problem taking out a dent full of swarms, especially if they know how to dodge. I know for a fact TGFT has coordinated several attacks on player capships using only fighters or bombers, usually resulting in the capship running to repair. I am sure you, Wash, have also caused capships to run using a non capital ship. A capship loaded with swarms is powerful, but obviously not overpowered.
You say "capsihp combat is not officially implemented" and then want to nerf cap swarms so that "attacking other capships much [sic] less effective." That just doesn't make any sense to me. You want to make capship assualts less effective because capship combat isn't officially implemented. I provided several examples of capship battles, regardless of whether it is "official" or not. The nerf seems regressive and I can't figure out how it would improve game play.
I would only support a nerf if cap-swarms were being used to disrupt game play (i.e., like when swarms could be put on a greyhound or when trident batteries could be put on regular ships). But no one is out there in a dent using swarms to completely dominate a battle. A solo dent can deshield another solo dent, which seems fair. But, as you said, the more powerful NPC capships can repel the damage. Yes, a fighter/bomber who takes an entire stack to the face will explode. But so what? As Inc says: "Guided missiles, for all their fire-and-forget nature, have a prominent and loud warning, and have no guarantee that they will all reach the same place at the same time." A coordinated group of players would have no problem taking out a dent full of swarms, especially if they know how to dodge. I know for a fact TGFT has coordinated several attacks on player capships using only fighters or bombers, usually resulting in the capship running to repair. I am sure you, Wash, have also caused capships to run using a non capital ship. A capship loaded with swarms is powerful, but obviously not overpowered.
You say "capsihp combat is not officially implemented" and then want to nerf cap swarms so that "attacking other capships much [sic] less effective." That just doesn't make any sense to me. You want to make capship assualts less effective because capship combat isn't officially implemented. I provided several examples of capship battles, regardless of whether it is "official" or not. The nerf seems regressive and I can't figure out how it would improve game play.
ok Let me spell it out.
Dent 1 = target
Dent 2 = aggressor
Dent 1 upon being attacked simply has to turbo away and continually shoot swarms. Dent 2 attempts to follow to continue battle yet has no defense against the constant valley of high damage capswarms coming at them. Dent 1 has the advantage as Dent 2 does not have the ability to do any damage once dent 1 reaches 81mps yet it continues to receive huge amounts of damage.
Putting the damage level back to its original value makes capship to capship swarming way less effective as 4 volleys have to land together to desheild. Inc has stated capship to capship combat is not officially supported therefore capships should not have enough fire power to desheild another capship.
I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
Dent 1 = target
Dent 2 = aggressor
Dent 1 upon being attacked simply has to turbo away and continually shoot swarms. Dent 2 attempts to follow to continue battle yet has no defense against the constant valley of high damage capswarms coming at them. Dent 1 has the advantage as Dent 2 does not have the ability to do any damage once dent 1 reaches 81mps yet it continues to receive huge amounts of damage.
Putting the damage level back to its original value makes capship to capship swarming way less effective as 4 volleys have to land together to desheild. Inc has stated capship to capship combat is not officially supported therefore capships should not have enough fire power to desheild another capship.
I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
The more likely scenario: Dent 2 is sitting on a wormhole. Dent 1 would like to pass. Dent 1 now has to fly full-speed toward Dent 2 and into their capswarm stacks. If Dent 1 decides it's not worth it, they should absolutely be advantaged in running. Dent 2 has successfully defended the wormhole. Tridents are not designed to be pursuit ships. Which is why they are slow and bulky. They are meant to sit in space and fire from a stationary location. Not chase another trident down. If Dent 1 wants to escape, it has to first turn the bow in a favorable direction, and then it has to get up to 81 m/s to avoid the capswarm volley. If anything, the high swarm damage gives Dent 2 an advantage at this point because in the time that Dent 1 is maneuvering their ship, they are not using their turrets and are vulnerable to attack.
In response to your other points:
First, landing a perfect stack of 4 volleys is nigh impossible without turretbots. There should be some allowable degree of error, which is achieved by having higher capswarm damage.
Second, I completely disagree the the assertion that "capships should not have enough fire power to desheild another capship." Like should be able to deshield like. A goliath should be able to deshield another goliath. A trident should be able to deshield another trident. That seems balanced to me.
In response to your other points:
First, landing a perfect stack of 4 volleys is nigh impossible without turretbots. There should be some allowable degree of error, which is achieved by having higher capswarm damage.
Second, I completely disagree the the assertion that "capships should not have enough fire power to desheild another capship." Like should be able to deshield like. A goliath should be able to deshield another goliath. A trident should be able to deshield another trident. That seems balanced to me.
Well if dent 2 has the advantage in that scenario then the danage should def be lowred back to original. Also weitibg a bind to cycle the turrets and fire is just as fast as having four gunners
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