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I find it a bit annoying that the current mobile control setup (whilst better than most mobile games) makes it almost impossible to fly efficiently. Why is there no ability to strafe up or down? Why is the primary button placed where its impossible to use without becoming a contortist?
What I propose is simply mapping the up and down buttons on the "D-Pad" to be strafe up and strade down respectively. Then to remap forward and backward thrust to the y-axis accelerometer in "Tilt to Roll" mode (as i am sure you are aware, this is the only control mode which mobile players really use). This means you can actually strafe and change velocity at the same time, and even while rolling, like we should be able to.
I really don't see any problem in making these changes, since my current understanding of the controls is that they are simply remapped versions of the keyboard keys.
Yes, yes I know about droidbuttons, but:
A) Some people don't know about or do not understand how to install them/can't be bothered.
B) ****ing Apple.
C) This should be in the game anyway, espescially since the mobile version has been out for so long, it really feels like the mobile side is extremely neglected espescially with the ease (please correct me if I am wrong) with which this change can be made.
JHX
What I propose is simply mapping the up and down buttons on the "D-Pad" to be strafe up and strade down respectively. Then to remap forward and backward thrust to the y-axis accelerometer in "Tilt to Roll" mode (as i am sure you are aware, this is the only control mode which mobile players really use). This means you can actually strafe and change velocity at the same time, and even while rolling, like we should be able to.
I really don't see any problem in making these changes, since my current understanding of the controls is that they are simply remapped versions of the keyboard keys.
Yes, yes I know about droidbuttons, but:
A) Some people don't know about or do not understand how to install them/can't be bothered.
B) ****ing Apple.
C) This should be in the game anyway, espescially since the mobile version has been out for so long, it really feels like the mobile side is extremely neglected espescially with the ease (please correct me if I am wrong) with which this change can be made.
JHX
The reason why most people have an issue with the touch controls is because they see the contrast to the PC players of which a good lot are veterans and have combat experience. So Android newbie A fights PC player B and gets shot down by B without even hitting him once. That is very discouraging.
VOs default controls are, as you said yourself, even better than the controls on most other flight games. And with Droidbuttons you can even customize the stuff, if you are an Android player. Apple... Well.
But lets not write away the problem: You only have two hands on that touchscreen. You need one to fire and one to dodge. On a PC, you can do all that adanced stuff. Bind mode-toggling to your mouse, dodge very efficiently by having your fingers jump over the keyboard buttons etc. etc.
The best thing you can do as a mobile player with no option to access a PC is use a controller or some other device that makes you get away from touch controls.
That is just the nature of this game. It is originally a PC game and has PC players in it. The Devs are not to blame and can't do anything about it. Touchscreens simply aren't made to compete with a gaming PC. Sometimes the old stuff is the good stuff.
I'm not sure if the issue you mentioned are valid. I've only tested VO on mobile once or twice and always used a controller. But +1 for some basic changes or atleast looking into it if it helps all the Apple people.
VOs default controls are, as you said yourself, even better than the controls on most other flight games. And with Droidbuttons you can even customize the stuff, if you are an Android player. Apple... Well.
But lets not write away the problem: You only have two hands on that touchscreen. You need one to fire and one to dodge. On a PC, you can do all that adanced stuff. Bind mode-toggling to your mouse, dodge very efficiently by having your fingers jump over the keyboard buttons etc. etc.
The best thing you can do as a mobile player with no option to access a PC is use a controller or some other device that makes you get away from touch controls.
That is just the nature of this game. It is originally a PC game and has PC players in it. The Devs are not to blame and can't do anything about it. Touchscreens simply aren't made to compete with a gaming PC. Sometimes the old stuff is the good stuff.
I'm not sure if the issue you mentioned are valid. I've only tested VO on mobile once or twice and always used a controller. But +1 for some basic changes or atleast looking into it if it helps all the Apple people.
I apologise if i sounds like I am angry at the devs (i wrote this after I was killed by an artemis collector, an ARTEMIS COLLECTOR DAMMIT) but whilst i do acknowledge the game is a pc game and they have done an amazing job so far, remapping those two things would make the game such a better experience on mobile.
I would get a controller but they are damn expensive ($59 to $129 from what I have seen)
I would get a controller but they are damn expensive ($59 to $129 from what I have seen)
I've been playing this game exclusively for the last 18+ months on a Note 3. The touch interface drove me mad, as you're explaining, and I eventually spent the time and invested in learning droid buttons. The difference is night and day. I'll agree, I'd love to see the devs work draugath's plugin into the base client for mobile users, but ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that not all inputs are the same or deserve to be the same.
As a touch user I'm limited to two points of input (thumbs) plus device sensors (tilt controls). This is so far removed from PC capacity that devoting time to balancing it isn't a worthy endeavour. Simply put, mobile is an EXTENSION of the full game experience. Without grabbing a keyboard and mouse, you will never truly compete against another player who is using PC controls. What's great though is that you have the option of doing some more hardcore work at your battle station and then grabbing your phone or tablet and do some trading, mining, or hauling in bed, on a train, in class, wherever! What other game gives you this option?
With that said, the learning curve nay be high, but it can be done. A mobile user can learn to kill every bot in the game and can at least learn to hold their own in pvp. This is way easier to do with droid buttons and I'd argue that the people who care are the ones willing to put in the time to install and learn to use DB.
As a touch user I'm limited to two points of input (thumbs) plus device sensors (tilt controls). This is so far removed from PC capacity that devoting time to balancing it isn't a worthy endeavour. Simply put, mobile is an EXTENSION of the full game experience. Without grabbing a keyboard and mouse, you will never truly compete against another player who is using PC controls. What's great though is that you have the option of doing some more hardcore work at your battle station and then grabbing your phone or tablet and do some trading, mining, or hauling in bed, on a train, in class, wherever! What other game gives you this option?
With that said, the learning curve nay be high, but it can be done. A mobile user can learn to kill every bot in the game and can at least learn to hold their own in pvp. This is way easier to do with droid buttons and I'd argue that the people who care are the ones willing to put in the time to install and learn to use DB.
JHX, I got shot down by plenty of Artemis Collectors early on, even when using a keyboard and joystick on a PC. There's a learning curve no matter what controls you use.
That said, he's got a point. The placement of the default buttons is pretty silly and leaves a lot of questions about how much play testing and thought went into the current layout...
Why is stuff like Nav and Activate bigger than Primary/Secondary Fire and Turbo?
Why is there no turbo lock for long trips?
Why is there no way to strafe up or down?
Why not have a throttle slider that you can touch to set for F/A mode and
If you can't get a controller, at least install Droidbuttons so you can customize the touch controls.
That said, he's got a point. The placement of the default buttons is pretty silly and leaves a lot of questions about how much play testing and thought went into the current layout...
Why is stuff like Nav and Activate bigger than Primary/Secondary Fire and Turbo?
Why is there no turbo lock for long trips?
Why is there no way to strafe up or down?
Why not have a throttle slider that you can touch to set for F/A mode and
If you can't get a controller, at least install Droidbuttons so you can customize the touch controls.
Maybe he made poor life choices and is now stuck using an iToy.
Also, I don't understand the suggestions to get a controller. Isn't the point of mobile support to be able to play without lugging a bunch of junk around?
Tokko Bashalis, I disagree with your stance that the mobile interface is so constrained that it's unworth improving. Something like 80% of the playerbase is mobile now? It is an objective fact that the interface can be improved significantly despite the constraints, because otherwise DroidButtons would not be a thing.
Also, I don't understand the suggestions to get a controller. Isn't the point of mobile support to be able to play without lugging a bunch of junk around?
Tokko Bashalis, I disagree with your stance that the mobile interface is so constrained that it's unworth improving. Something like 80% of the playerbase is mobile now? It is an objective fact that the interface can be improved significantly despite the constraints, because otherwise DroidButtons would not be a thing.
I thought this was supposed to be "the first true cross-platform mmorpg" not the first pc mmorpg with a port to mobile.
The thing is, my suggestion for improvement involves changing the mapping of two buttons, and assigning two functions which should be available anyway to two unassigned button. I dont see the problem of doing this?
The thing is, my suggestion for improvement involves changing the mapping of two buttons, and assigning two functions which should be available anyway to two unassigned button. I dont see the problem of doing this?
Make the Weapon fire buttons slightly bigger to make combat a tiny bit easier.
The problem that you're not seeing is best illustrated by this thread.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/29787
While your change makes sense for you, there is no one-size-fits-all solution for making the default touch interface better for most people. There is always going to be a need for some level of compromise.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/29787
While your change makes sense for you, there is no one-size-fits-all solution for making the default touch interface better for most people. There is always going to be a need for some level of compromise.
I understand that, but why leave out up/down strafe, when up/down tilt is unassigned to a function in the tilt to steer setup?
I just really dont see why this functionality is not implemented when it is right there, available to be used?
I understand that there is no control scheme that can fit everyone, but what is the disadvantage to at least making one which provides the full experience?
I just really dont see why this functionality is not implemented when it is right there, available to be used?
I understand that there is no control scheme that can fit everyone, but what is the disadvantage to at least making one which provides the full experience?
The interface was designed to best suit the needs of a player for the first 5 minutes of gameplay. That is the most crucial time (actually, the first 30 seconds), and from our testing, there was considerable merit to simplifying and streamlining to a point where people could pick it up a bit more easily. People really struggle during this period, particularly on smaller devices (3.8").
At the same time, I'm not against an "advanced" interface, and/or revising the current interface. That's why I created this thread for feedback about ideal DroidButtons configurations. Long before there was a DroidButtons, we hoped to make a completely configurable UI, but it was just out of our development-reach for the available time (all respect to Draugath's cool creation, but we would obviously have to do it to a much higher standard of polish).. which leads directly to..
Finally, there is a need for the aesthetics to be at least as good as the control mechanics. Veteran players tend to value gameplay and layout above all else, but we actually have to make the interface look relatively decent as well, or we will get thrashed with negative reviews. People are very sensitive to this, a huge number of them are only willing to give a cursory look at the game (even after they've downloaded and installed 400MB of stuff), and aesthetics are a huge part of that.
There are also challenges with accelerometers, relating to devices being improperly calibrated, or having the axis reversed compared to the norm, etc. We can probably work around all of this by asking the player to calibrate on startup, and handling it ourselves, but.. it's one more thing to do.
Also, accelerometers kind of generally suck as a control mechanic (we only offer tilt-to-steer because Android people get pissed if it isn't available.. many of them want to run around their rooms going "WHOOSH" and waving their phone around, even though that's a terrible control strategy). But, perhaps it'll work well enough for throttle.
Yes, a lot of time, and thought, and play-testing, and effort, went into the current touch-interface (and I have killed a hell of a lot of collectors, of all kinds, on mobile). I am not claiming the current interface is anything great, it was a whole series of compromises, and I always expected to progressively refine it as we moved forward. But things like.. the series of questions the Arf is asking, expose the naivete of the userbase about the actual, real-world challenges of the mobile version, and how extreme our uphill battle was (and is) with offering such a complex and difficult product.. in a market that expects Angry Birds.
If you would like an illustration of the reality, hand the game to your mom, and watch her try to play.
Then imagine she plays for a minute, writes a review, and deletes the game. Our ability to ever make money on mobile is based on review strength (Google won't ever feature products that don't have high ratings). From that standpoint, the "best" interface I should have would be a single button you press to shoot things as you are flown through a guided predetermined path, anything more complex than that results in negative reviews (which we still get. constantly).
Vertical-strafe is not a strict requirement to play the game. It is unpleasant to not have it, especially if you're from the PC, but it works without it. When we had it in there, in various forms, people struggled more. Now, that's not to say there isn't some scheme where it'll all work better than what we tried previously.. or the fact that average phone sizes have increased (although a whole lot of people still have the small iPhones). But the things that were left-out, were done so with thought and testing.
Furthermore, the statement "it really feels like the mobile side is extremely neglected" is not accurate at all (as many other users have complained.. in the reverse, "too many mobile updates"). We're constantly fixing crap on mobile, but it's a continuous stream of catastrophic issues (crashes on new OS versions or devices, billing problems, all kinds of stuff), and not a lot of UI tweaks and feature-additions. That's because our priorities are actually sane. And we have very limited resources to go around.
So, yes, I would like to improve the interface. I am not inclined to do so based on the "idea" of an interface: I want people to play-test the hell out of things, and then give me feedback on exactly what kind of device is representative of their testing (and this still leaves out other issues like.. the size of their thumbs, their relative dexterity, etc). Draugath's plugin makes this kind of testing possible, so.. let's use that to refine some solid configurations and see if there's some middle ground that might work better for everyone?
At the same time, I'm not against an "advanced" interface, and/or revising the current interface. That's why I created this thread for feedback about ideal DroidButtons configurations. Long before there was a DroidButtons, we hoped to make a completely configurable UI, but it was just out of our development-reach for the available time (all respect to Draugath's cool creation, but we would obviously have to do it to a much higher standard of polish).. which leads directly to..
Finally, there is a need for the aesthetics to be at least as good as the control mechanics. Veteran players tend to value gameplay and layout above all else, but we actually have to make the interface look relatively decent as well, or we will get thrashed with negative reviews. People are very sensitive to this, a huge number of them are only willing to give a cursory look at the game (even after they've downloaded and installed 400MB of stuff), and aesthetics are a huge part of that.
There are also challenges with accelerometers, relating to devices being improperly calibrated, or having the axis reversed compared to the norm, etc. We can probably work around all of this by asking the player to calibrate on startup, and handling it ourselves, but.. it's one more thing to do.
Also, accelerometers kind of generally suck as a control mechanic (we only offer tilt-to-steer because Android people get pissed if it isn't available.. many of them want to run around their rooms going "WHOOSH" and waving their phone around, even though that's a terrible control strategy). But, perhaps it'll work well enough for throttle.
Yes, a lot of time, and thought, and play-testing, and effort, went into the current touch-interface (and I have killed a hell of a lot of collectors, of all kinds, on mobile). I am not claiming the current interface is anything great, it was a whole series of compromises, and I always expected to progressively refine it as we moved forward. But things like.. the series of questions the Arf is asking, expose the naivete of the userbase about the actual, real-world challenges of the mobile version, and how extreme our uphill battle was (and is) with offering such a complex and difficult product.. in a market that expects Angry Birds.
If you would like an illustration of the reality, hand the game to your mom, and watch her try to play.
Then imagine she plays for a minute, writes a review, and deletes the game. Our ability to ever make money on mobile is based on review strength (Google won't ever feature products that don't have high ratings). From that standpoint, the "best" interface I should have would be a single button you press to shoot things as you are flown through a guided predetermined path, anything more complex than that results in negative reviews (which we still get. constantly).
Vertical-strafe is not a strict requirement to play the game. It is unpleasant to not have it, especially if you're from the PC, but it works without it. When we had it in there, in various forms, people struggled more. Now, that's not to say there isn't some scheme where it'll all work better than what we tried previously.. or the fact that average phone sizes have increased (although a whole lot of people still have the small iPhones). But the things that were left-out, were done so with thought and testing.
Furthermore, the statement "it really feels like the mobile side is extremely neglected" is not accurate at all (as many other users have complained.. in the reverse, "too many mobile updates"). We're constantly fixing crap on mobile, but it's a continuous stream of catastrophic issues (crashes on new OS versions or devices, billing problems, all kinds of stuff), and not a lot of UI tweaks and feature-additions. That's because our priorities are actually sane. And we have very limited resources to go around.
So, yes, I would like to improve the interface. I am not inclined to do so based on the "idea" of an interface: I want people to play-test the hell out of things, and then give me feedback on exactly what kind of device is representative of their testing (and this still leaves out other issues like.. the size of their thumbs, their relative dexterity, etc). Draugath's plugin makes this kind of testing possible, so.. let's use that to refine some solid configurations and see if there's some middle ground that might work better for everyone?
Inc, if simplifying controls for a good first-impression is a priority, a Freespace-style match-target-speed feature might be worth doing, at least for flightassist mode.
It might be, although it'd probably not be that useful for most of the interactions you have in the training sector, for instance, which tend to be "facing off" against enemies and not really chasing them.
The biggest simple win for us, I think, would just be a small selection of different possible HUD and control configurations. Some of which might be best for very small devices, some for middle devices (phablets, big phones), and some for big genuine tablets. That was kind of the goal with asking for people's DroidButtons layouts, to get some notions of what's working for people.
In the end, we may still have to stay with a "basic" config and then offer them more advanced configs later.. otherwise the user is selecting a UI when they have no idea what they want, and it's more challenging to walk people through tutorials when you have no idea where the controls are (although obviously we have the ability to highlight/illuminate them, but it'd still make some things a bit more complicated).
The biggest simple win for us, I think, would just be a small selection of different possible HUD and control configurations. Some of which might be best for very small devices, some for middle devices (phablets, big phones), and some for big genuine tablets. That was kind of the goal with asking for people's DroidButtons layouts, to get some notions of what's working for people.
In the end, we may still have to stay with a "basic" config and then offer them more advanced configs later.. otherwise the user is selecting a UI when they have no idea what they want, and it's more challenging to walk people through tutorials when you have no idea where the controls are (although obviously we have the ability to highlight/illuminate them, but it'd still make some things a bit more complicated).
Incarnate, I think probably the single biggest change you could make to the default UI is to simply add the ability to move the buttons around the screen.
*sits back down*
Ok, many thanks for the detailed explanation Incarnate! I understand the issues you face now, espescially with marketing.
Have you tried or considered trying contacting youtubers to do a showcase or lets play on the game? This is where I discover most of my games from and I really think that this game would benefit from being presented on for example Scott Manley's channel (Astronogamer, loves space sims, im sure you've heard of him). Because having 300,000 people watch a video commending a game (which is definitely worth commending) and being urged to try it out from someone they trust to inform about good space sims would really have a big impact on player inflow.
(I have tried emailing him to reccomend he play this game but haven't been able to find his contact details so far)
Ok, many thanks for the detailed explanation Incarnate! I understand the issues you face now, espescially with marketing.
Have you tried or considered trying contacting youtubers to do a showcase or lets play on the game? This is where I discover most of my games from and I really think that this game would benefit from being presented on for example Scott Manley's channel (Astronogamer, loves space sims, im sure you've heard of him). Because having 300,000 people watch a video commending a game (which is definitely worth commending) and being urged to try it out from someone they trust to inform about good space sims would really have a big impact on player inflow.
(I have tried emailing him to reccomend he play this game but haven't been able to find his contact details so far)
You could try simply posting to his YouTube channel. I gave it a shot a year and a quarter ago, but never heard anything back.
Coming up on 12 years playing Vendetta, some of the Google Play "reviews" make me want to pull my hair out. I've had to let it all go with a chuckle, and write it off to static. I suppose it takes a patient person to be an industry leader.
Coming up on 12 years playing Vendetta, some of the Google Play "reviews" make me want to pull my hair out. I've had to let it all go with a chuckle, and write it off to static. I suppose it takes a patient person to be an industry leader.
Yeah, i see all the negative reviews and im like "seriously?! Youre gonna ignore all the great features off the game and give it 1 star because it took a while to load the update files?" Hence why I wrote a half page long review on the apple store gushing about the game.
I would post on his channel, but like you said, i doubt he will ever see it, which is why i wanted to email him.
I would post on his channel, but like you said, i doubt he will ever see it, which is why i wanted to email him.
Ive played on A kindle fire hd 7" with same control scheme and unable to figure out "droid buttons" yet I have played for 8-10 months with same stuff, crystal aq. to all 4's, You just have to master it ^-^!
I get you The Axiom, but i always just feel like with mobile your skill peaks much lower than on pc, so screw it I'm buying a wireless keyboard and mouse.
JHX, if you are on an iOS device the wireless keyboard and mouse won't work. Apple prevents iOS apps from reading keyboard events directly and there's no way to get mouse events at all.
Sorry.
Your best bet would be to get an iOS-supported gamepad and wait for the VO Store update that uses it.
Sorry.
Your best bet would be to get an iOS-supported gamepad and wait for the VO Store update that uses it.