Forums » Suggestions
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/15706
I read thru the faction system RFC and some of my comments are based on the original post I also asked if Incarnate would post a new RFC on the subject. One issue the system does not seem to address is combat with multiple players. Both xp awards and faction penalties are currently ignored by the system for this type of assist.
I would like to suggest that both xp and faction penalties be awarded by the percentage of damage to the ship caused by each player with a possible extra bonus for the kill shot.
For example:
Defender is POS and received 1 percent bump damage with "innocent" as he undocked.
POS Attacking ship "a" does 35 percent damage
Neutral Attacking ship "b" does 60 percent damage
KOS Attacking ship "c" does 5 percent damage and makes the kill shot
xp should be awarded
"innocent" would receive 1 percent of the xp "innocent" would normally receive if "innocent" had made the kill
"a" would receive 34 percent of the xp "a" would normally receive if "a" had made the kill
"b" would receive 60 percent of the xp "b" would normally receive if "b" had made the kill
"c" would receive 5 percent of the xp "c" would normally receive if "c" had made the kill
"c" would also receive the kill shot bonus of 50 percent for a grand total of 55%
Faction penalties could be calculated by the maximum amount a,b,c,innocent could receive, lets use 1000 points
"innocent" would receive a 1 percent penalty or 10 points
"a" would receive a 34 percent penalty or 350 points
"b" would receive a 60 percent penalty or 600 points
"c" would receive a 5 percent penalty of only 50 points
OR... penalties could be calculated by the individual potential of each player
POS "innocent" would get 1 percent of POS vs POS 1 point of 100
"a" would receive 34 percent of POS vs POS 34 points of 100
"b" would receive 60 percent of POS vs neutral 300 points of 500
"c" would receive 5 percent of POS vs KOS 50 points of 1000
and a kill shot "bonus" doubling not to exceed 100 percent of the normal penalty for a total of 100 points.
(I guessed at the amounts as I am not sure of how many points each would receive)
A few other rules would also be needed to help ensure correct distribution.
All counters reset after 2 jumps or defender undamaged for more then 1 minute (escape assumed)
All counters reset on change of monitoring faction (jumping from UIT to Valent space)
Limited to last 4 attackers with defenders armor amount adjusted if an attacker is discarded.
I read thru the faction system RFC and some of my comments are based on the original post I also asked if Incarnate would post a new RFC on the subject. One issue the system does not seem to address is combat with multiple players. Both xp awards and faction penalties are currently ignored by the system for this type of assist.
I would like to suggest that both xp and faction penalties be awarded by the percentage of damage to the ship caused by each player with a possible extra bonus for the kill shot.
For example:
Defender is POS and received 1 percent bump damage with "innocent" as he undocked.
POS Attacking ship "a" does 35 percent damage
Neutral Attacking ship "b" does 60 percent damage
KOS Attacking ship "c" does 5 percent damage and makes the kill shot
xp should be awarded
"innocent" would receive 1 percent of the xp "innocent" would normally receive if "innocent" had made the kill
"a" would receive 34 percent of the xp "a" would normally receive if "a" had made the kill
"b" would receive 60 percent of the xp "b" would normally receive if "b" had made the kill
"c" would receive 5 percent of the xp "c" would normally receive if "c" had made the kill
"c" would also receive the kill shot bonus of 50 percent for a grand total of 55%
Faction penalties could be calculated by the maximum amount a,b,c,innocent could receive, lets use 1000 points
"innocent" would receive a 1 percent penalty or 10 points
"a" would receive a 34 percent penalty or 350 points
"b" would receive a 60 percent penalty or 600 points
"c" would receive a 5 percent penalty of only 50 points
OR... penalties could be calculated by the individual potential of each player
POS "innocent" would get 1 percent of POS vs POS 1 point of 100
"a" would receive 34 percent of POS vs POS 34 points of 100
"b" would receive 60 percent of POS vs neutral 300 points of 500
"c" would receive 5 percent of POS vs KOS 50 points of 1000
and a kill shot "bonus" doubling not to exceed 100 percent of the normal penalty for a total of 100 points.
(I guessed at the amounts as I am not sure of how many points each would receive)
A few other rules would also be needed to help ensure correct distribution.
All counters reset after 2 jumps or defender undamaged for more then 1 minute (escape assumed)
All counters reset on change of monitoring faction (jumping from UIT to Valent space)
Limited to last 4 attackers with defenders armor amount adjusted if an attacker is discarded.
+1 distributed XP
I'm not sure that I care for distributed faction penalties if only because it would make things much more complicated.
Some points I'd add:
*You must be in the same sector as the person who dies when they die to receive the penalty (like distributed XP on bots)
*I'd have the counters reset any time the person being attacked changes sectors for simplicity, also if they dock with a station/cappie or repair to 100% (e.g. from repair modules).
*Faction penalties for bump damage is lame. Requiring a minimum amount of damage done for the penalty like 5% or 10% would be good. Would also help make it so one stray shot against a friendly doesn't have a penalty.
*If the person being attacked is getting active repairs and the attacker has done enough damage to kill the player 10 times by the time they finally die, the attacker should not receive a 10x faction penalty.
This also complicates the forgiveness dialog as you may want to forgive player A but not players B, C or D.
EDIT: I'd recommend not counting bump damage at all for distributed XP or faction penalties. If you killed yourself by crashing into a roid you should not get XP and a faction hit, lol.
I'm not sure that I care for distributed faction penalties if only because it would make things much more complicated.
Some points I'd add:
*You must be in the same sector as the person who dies when they die to receive the penalty (like distributed XP on bots)
*I'd have the counters reset any time the person being attacked changes sectors for simplicity, also if they dock with a station/cappie or repair to 100% (e.g. from repair modules).
*Faction penalties for bump damage is lame. Requiring a minimum amount of damage done for the penalty like 5% or 10% would be good. Would also help make it so one stray shot against a friendly doesn't have a penalty.
*If the person being attacked is getting active repairs and the attacker has done enough damage to kill the player 10 times by the time they finally die, the attacker should not receive a 10x faction penalty.
This also complicates the forgiveness dialog as you may want to forgive player A but not players B, C or D.
EDIT: I'd recommend not counting bump damage at all for distributed XP or faction penalties. If you killed yourself by crashing into a roid you should not get XP and a faction hit, lol.
-1
With the bump damage effectively turn off ignoring it is valid but in the past with the bump damage on players would shoot their target down to 1 percent and them bump them to death. This tactic was later reversed by the target bumping themselves to death and forcing a kill onto their opponent.
Multiple attackers does tend to complicate matters but simply ignoring them leaves a large loophole for exploits.
I can see excluding damage less then say 10 percent from xp and faction as the amount is not that serious and easily falls within the range of accidental unless the damage results in a kill.
Docking should reset it all or reaching any other safe harbor for that matter.
Multiple attackers does tend to complicate matters but simply ignoring them leaves a large loophole for exploits.
I can see excluding damage less then say 10 percent from xp and faction as the amount is not that serious and easily falls within the range of accidental unless the damage results in a kill.
Docking should reset it all or reaching any other safe harbor for that matter.
+1 to distribute 64% of XP and standing variation according to damage dealt, and 33% goes to kill shot. Simple formula: Standing +/- and XP are given the same way.
-1 to bump damage penalties, including PK registration. Unless someone create a way so engine can separate accidental from intentional bump damage. To reduce even more exploitation, make same % damage to both ships bumping. ram-kill results in suicide.
-Friendly fire: Dealt from forgiveness window
-Multiple attackers forgiveness dialog can offer check-boxes listing all 'offenders' with %damage or #hits dealt.
-1 to bump damage penalties, including PK registration. Unless someone create a way so engine can separate accidental from intentional bump damage. To reduce even more exploitation, make same % damage to both ships bumping. ram-kill results in suicide.
-Friendly fire: Dealt from forgiveness window
-Multiple attackers forgiveness dialog can offer check-boxes listing all 'offenders' with %damage or #hits dealt.
LOL....me thinks someone is a bit bitter ;)
Savet - I dont role play here and no I am not bitter. Just pointing out a serious issue with the faction system Guild needs to look at before they rework it. Compared to Peytros and others you are a nothing more then an amateur.
... And now We rejoin our discussion of the faction / XP system and the handling of multiple opponents
Aye - The matter of forgiveness screen - It could be turned into a list of everyone that caused damage with a yes/no box beside it. I thought about a box for each but that would get ugly and look rather cluttered.
With the bump damage lowered That type of exploit is a lot tougher to perform - The damage is already mutual based on mass and angle of attack This would in fact allow bump damage/suicide to exist in a much more reasonable fashion - (I do wonder if we should auto forgive ourselves or not LOL) I suppose Guild needs to look at how that would play out and decide if they want to leave that tactic in -game. I do prefer to have at least that as a last ditch effort for the XC in spite of the difficulty involved in achieving it. The recent nerf of it would seem to indicate that it is causing too many problems and a reasonable method to arbitrate hasnt presented itself.
... And now We rejoin our discussion of the faction / XP system and the handling of multiple opponents
Aye - The matter of forgiveness screen - It could be turned into a list of everyone that caused damage with a yes/no box beside it. I thought about a box for each but that would get ugly and look rather cluttered.
With the bump damage lowered That type of exploit is a lot tougher to perform - The damage is already mutual based on mass and angle of attack This would in fact allow bump damage/suicide to exist in a much more reasonable fashion - (I do wonder if we should auto forgive ourselves or not LOL) I suppose Guild needs to look at how that would play out and decide if they want to leave that tactic in -game. I do prefer to have at least that as a last ditch effort for the XC in spite of the difficulty involved in achieving it. The recent nerf of it would seem to indicate that it is causing too many problems and a reasonable method to arbitrate hasnt presented itself.
-a lot
The "exploit" this attempts to fix is so minor relative to the rest of the faction system problems out there that it's laughable to have spilt as much e-ink as you did.
If you were addressing a real issue where someone was killing without faction penalties being applied, then that'd be something. Here you admit there's a KOS player making a kill and taking a faction penalty/bounty hit. Whether they did 1% or 100% of the damage that killed the other player is irrelevant in almost every circumstance present in VO today.
The "exploit" this attempts to fix is so minor relative to the rest of the faction system problems out there that it's laughable to have spilt as much e-ink as you did.
If you were addressing a real issue where someone was killing without faction penalties being applied, then that'd be something. Here you admit there's a KOS player making a kill and taking a faction penalty/bounty hit. Whether they did 1% or 100% of the damage that killed the other player is irrelevant in almost every circumstance present in VO today.
-9999
This is way to friggin complicated.
This is way to friggin complicated.
Faction is unfortunately going to be complex no matter what system is chosen. It is closely related to whats "fair" to all of the player base. You all can continue to whine about the system being broken or you can help create a new system that will work for everyone.... Now is in fact the time to "waste" electrons addressing the various issues before Incarnate turns the team loose on the new faction system.
Lecter as a wannabe lawyer you should understand the principal of joint and several liability....
Go ahead and look it up... but dont expect us to wait.
Lecter as a wannabe lawyer you should understand the principal of joint and several liability....
Go ahead and look it up... but dont expect us to wait.
Right, but this doesn't really *fix* anything wrong with the faction system at all. It just makes it more complicated. Right now we can tell new players, plain and simple: "Don't kill anyone in monitored space if they have good standing there unless you're willing to take the standing hit." This muddys the waters quite a bit, and for what gain?
One gain is a deeper RP game when taking into account the background politics between the factions. Right now, it's pretty simple, but has no depth nor future. As different factions war with (or ally with) one another, the faction system should be able to reflect that. Is it more complicated? Yes. Will it add a lot of depth to the game? Also Yes as it will force players to be on their toes, especially if faction loss has consequences.
I have 13 POS in game, but what does that really gain me? Not much to be honest. I'd prefer to work at balancing my faction standings so traveling the universe actually means something. Don't want to deal with a balancing act? Either go to Gray space (and deal with things there; that is make it dangerous as it should be), or don't leave nation space. Both options would keep things nice and simple. (well...maybe not so much if you're in UIT space) Adding more complexity to the faction system would allow for additional missions which could start or end a war between factions, perform real espionage, and even privateering.
I have 13 POS in game, but what does that really gain me? Not much to be honest. I'd prefer to work at balancing my faction standings so traveling the universe actually means something. Don't want to deal with a balancing act? Either go to Gray space (and deal with things there; that is make it dangerous as it should be), or don't leave nation space. Both options would keep things nice and simple. (well...maybe not so much if you're in UIT space) Adding more complexity to the faction system would allow for additional missions which could start or end a war between factions, perform real espionage, and even privateering.
"The "exploit" this attempts to fix is so minor relative to the rest of the faction system problems out there that it's laughable to have spilt as much e-ink as you did."
+1
"...this doesn't really *fix* anything wrong with the faction system at all. It just makes it more complicated."
+1
OP -1
+1
"...this doesn't really *fix* anything wrong with the faction system at all. It just makes it more complicated."
+1
OP -1
Having % damage dealt impact faction penalty and xp makes sense to me. If I shoot PaK down to 5% within monitored space and then some other guy finishes him, I should still take a faction hit, and (if applicable) get my share of XP.
Though perhaps players who inflict non-lethal damage should have their rewards and penalties further reduced, similarly to how the killer gets a bonus. Maybe 75% of whatever % they do. So for example, if I damaged a bot by 95% before somebody else finished it off, I'd get about 71% of the normal XP (75% of 95%). That way there is more incentive to finish the job yourself.
Collisions should be ignored still in respect to penalties, for the same reasons they're currently ignored. They should still count for XP though.
Also, I think that penalties should not be distributed if the person dies due to using /explode, the splash from his own rockets, or a collision with a non-ship. Those should be considered suicides, and absolve all others who were involved of their actions. I suppose it's debatable though. At any rate, /explode should work this way even if flare-splash and collisions do not.
XP should still be awarded after a suicide though, to prevent people suiciding to avoid providing XP to the victor out of spite. So if Joe burns off 80% of Tim's armor and Tim /explode's, Joe would still get 80% (or whatever) of the XP.
Though perhaps players who inflict non-lethal damage should have their rewards and penalties further reduced, similarly to how the killer gets a bonus. Maybe 75% of whatever % they do. So for example, if I damaged a bot by 95% before somebody else finished it off, I'd get about 71% of the normal XP (75% of 95%). That way there is more incentive to finish the job yourself.
Collisions should be ignored still in respect to penalties, for the same reasons they're currently ignored. They should still count for XP though.
Also, I think that penalties should not be distributed if the person dies due to using /explode, the splash from his own rockets, or a collision with a non-ship. Those should be considered suicides, and absolve all others who were involved of their actions. I suppose it's debatable though. At any rate, /explode should work this way even if flare-splash and collisions do not.
XP should still be awarded after a suicide though, to prevent people suiciding to avoid providing XP to the victor out of spite. So if Joe burns off 80% of Tim's armor and Tim /explode's, Joe would still get 80% (or whatever) of the XP.
A person has to remain still and undisturbed to /explode. I agree... (in fact I feel /explode should carry a penalty)... however, I doubt that the timer could run down before weapons fire could finish the weasel who's trying to cheat the opponent out of xp. Unless things have changed... an immobile ship cannot withstand ten seconds of sustained fire.
The only ship that can is a Trident Type M.
Right... forgot about that.
This is not a faction fix, but a improvement considering the MULTIPLAYER aspect of game. Imagine you are working hard to destroy a Capship or queen down to 1%. Then, out of nowhere, comes out another player, shoot that cappie once and kill it. He gets ALL rewards. That is being fixed!
/explode could be exploited when player A accidentally does small damage to B. While damaged, not in combat, B suicides. "A" gest punished. So, /explode should result in no penalty for offenders/aggressors.
About newbies, instead of "don't kill anyone in monitored space", becomes "don't shoot anyone in monitored space". So simple that lelecter can understand, with help of his mother.
Out of original topic, but still on faction system improving, Keller is on the right track here. We need a more complex system, where every faction have friends, allies, neutrals, dislikes and enemies. Every one, no exception. And the standing gains for one faction should affect the other ones, quick example, a UIT player does something and receive +100 UIT standing. That also should produce:
-100 Corvus
-50 XX
+50 TPG
+100 UIT
Or, for every +10 on Serco standing you get -10 on Itani standing, +1 on Aeolus, -1 on Biocom...
/explode could be exploited when player A accidentally does small damage to B. While damaged, not in combat, B suicides. "A" gest punished. So, /explode should result in no penalty for offenders/aggressors.
About newbies, instead of "don't kill anyone in monitored space", becomes "don't shoot anyone in monitored space". So simple that lelecter can understand, with help of his mother.
Out of original topic, but still on faction system improving, Keller is on the right track here. We need a more complex system, where every faction have friends, allies, neutrals, dislikes and enemies. Every one, no exception. And the standing gains for one faction should affect the other ones, quick example, a UIT player does something and receive +100 UIT standing. That also should produce:
-100 Corvus
-50 XX
+50 TPG
+100 UIT
Or, for every +10 on Serco standing you get -10 on Itani standing, +1 on Aeolus, -1 on Biocom...
An easier approach would be to set up a +/- multiplier for each faction in a matrix. That way any standing effects would be a matter of simply looping down a column pointed to by the player's current faction alignment and multiplying the base standing effect by the multiplier in each row.
There are 13 factions. That means we'd only have to create a 13x13 matrix. Just 169 ratings, since the effects matrix wouldn't have to be symmetric.
There are 13 factions. That means we'd only have to create a 13x13 matrix. Just 169 ratings, since the effects matrix wouldn't have to be symmetric.
Interesting - currently VO factions only see what is in thier own space..
So the adjustment would be based on the percentage of kill and then farmed out to the various factions based on a multiplier matrix of some sort.
I would tend to want the adjustments to be larger for the local faction which saw the incident and less for remote factions which only heard a report of the incident. A simple multiplier which added say 50 percent to the local faction effect would work nicely.
It has a lot of merit to it - Based on actual level of participation and a very flexible means of dealing with all 13 factions. The only real drawback is if Guild adds several more factions which would increase the matrix size in an exponential fashion. They may want to keep the major and minor factions as separate tables so they would have several smaller tables but the table size would be a lot more manageable. Having a "local" table which only carried the relevant factions for each faction and a "global" table for the big boys would appear to keep it small and speedy for the most part.
Xp pay out I suspect would need to be bumped up some with this so the individual payouts are not like 1 point each. Some sort of minimum reward award of 50 points would help.
So the adjustment would be based on the percentage of kill and then farmed out to the various factions based on a multiplier matrix of some sort.
I would tend to want the adjustments to be larger for the local faction which saw the incident and less for remote factions which only heard a report of the incident. A simple multiplier which added say 50 percent to the local faction effect would work nicely.
It has a lot of merit to it - Based on actual level of participation and a very flexible means of dealing with all 13 factions. The only real drawback is if Guild adds several more factions which would increase the matrix size in an exponential fashion. They may want to keep the major and minor factions as separate tables so they would have several smaller tables but the table size would be a lot more manageable. Having a "local" table which only carried the relevant factions for each faction and a "global" table for the big boys would appear to keep it small and speedy for the most part.
Xp pay out I suspect would need to be bumped up some with this so the individual payouts are not like 1 point each. Some sort of minimum reward award of 50 points would help.