Forums » Suggestions
Now that it seems we're getting serious about adding manufacturing systems into the game, albeit still through the mission architecture, I think a conversation about what reasonable costs for manufacturing are.
The missions currently in game seem to require a random assortment of trade goods, bits and pieces of hive bots, and some raw ore. It makes some sense for balance reasons, but none at all in terms of realism or gameplay.
1) Require more rare ores. The Teller-Ulam mission, for instance, should require at least a few cu of every single ore more rare than VanAzek, especially Pyronic.
2) Require fewer common ores. The fact that in order to build a single mine launcher that fits into 1 cu of cargo space, I have to mine and retrieve several heavy miner moths full of ferric and carbonic ore from literally 30m outside the undocking bay doesn't balance the mission; it's just unrealistic and annoying. A lot of ferric should be required for building ships, but not for weapons.
3) Decrease the number and quantity of trade goods required, and try to use ones that sound like they have some business being used in the manufacturing process. The Teller-Ulam mission requires enough Hull Panels and Outer Hull Plates to build a small frigate. This is dumb. In order to increase the total number of items required, use some that would be expended in the manufacturing process itself, like Waste Containers and Bearing Grease
4) Increase the number and decrease the quantity of hive drops required. Why do I need 24 Artemis processor cores to build a freaking mine launcher? That being said, I do like that hive parts are required because that means I can hire a noob to get them fore me, which is good for the noob and good for the player-driven side of the economy in general, so even though it doesn't make sense to use hive processors in manufacturing, I won't recommend against it. However, instead of requiring (for instance) 24 Artemis cores, 16 Guardian cores, and 3 Dentek cores, require instead 2 of each type of collector core and 4 guardian cores, or something like that.
5) Either un-nerf the drop rate on rare hive items, or get rid of them in manufacturing missions. Realistically, the only Queen Defense Matrices in circulation now are the ones that people had stockpiled before the drop rate nerf. I myself have killed hundreds of queens across my characters, and have only seen one drop once. Even if the drop rate is 1%, which is higher than my personal experience would indicate, the manufacture of a single Teller Ulam mine launcher thus requires one to kill approximately 400 queens, which is absolutely ridiculous.
My suggested alternate cost for manufacturing the Teller-Ulam mine launcher are thus:
20 crates of Premium Carbonic Ore
50 crates of Premium VanAzek Ore
20 crates of Premium Ferric Ore
40 crates of Pentric Ore
40 crates of Premium Xithricite Ore
10 crates of Ishik ore
20 crates of Lanthanic ore
20 crates of Denic ore
40 crates of Pyronic ore
20 crates of Apicene ore
40 crates of Heliocene ore
1 Power Regulators
22 Solid Explosives
4 Plasteel
1 Amplification Modules
16 Plasma Cores
4 Xang Xi waste containers
20 Waste Treatment Chemicals
1 Basic Targeting systems
5 Bearing Grease
40 Coolant
1 Cooling Systems
20 Corrosive Chemicals
4 Energy Conversion Module
1 Gyroscope
12 Manufacturing Tools
4 Dentek Processor cores
4 Orun Processor cores
4 Artemis Processor cores
8 Guardian Proecessors
The missions currently in game seem to require a random assortment of trade goods, bits and pieces of hive bots, and some raw ore. It makes some sense for balance reasons, but none at all in terms of realism or gameplay.
1) Require more rare ores. The Teller-Ulam mission, for instance, should require at least a few cu of every single ore more rare than VanAzek, especially Pyronic.
2) Require fewer common ores. The fact that in order to build a single mine launcher that fits into 1 cu of cargo space, I have to mine and retrieve several heavy miner moths full of ferric and carbonic ore from literally 30m outside the undocking bay doesn't balance the mission; it's just unrealistic and annoying. A lot of ferric should be required for building ships, but not for weapons.
3) Decrease the number and quantity of trade goods required, and try to use ones that sound like they have some business being used in the manufacturing process. The Teller-Ulam mission requires enough Hull Panels and Outer Hull Plates to build a small frigate. This is dumb. In order to increase the total number of items required, use some that would be expended in the manufacturing process itself, like Waste Containers and Bearing Grease
4) Increase the number and decrease the quantity of hive drops required. Why do I need 24 Artemis processor cores to build a freaking mine launcher? That being said, I do like that hive parts are required because that means I can hire a noob to get them fore me, which is good for the noob and good for the player-driven side of the economy in general, so even though it doesn't make sense to use hive processors in manufacturing, I won't recommend against it. However, instead of requiring (for instance) 24 Artemis cores, 16 Guardian cores, and 3 Dentek cores, require instead 2 of each type of collector core and 4 guardian cores, or something like that.
5) Either un-nerf the drop rate on rare hive items, or get rid of them in manufacturing missions. Realistically, the only Queen Defense Matrices in circulation now are the ones that people had stockpiled before the drop rate nerf. I myself have killed hundreds of queens across my characters, and have only seen one drop once. Even if the drop rate is 1%, which is higher than my personal experience would indicate, the manufacture of a single Teller Ulam mine launcher thus requires one to kill approximately 400 queens, which is absolutely ridiculous.
My suggested alternate cost for manufacturing the Teller-Ulam mine launcher are thus:
20 crates of Premium Carbonic Ore
50 crates of Premium VanAzek Ore
20 crates of Premium Ferric Ore
40 crates of Pentric Ore
40 crates of Premium Xithricite Ore
10 crates of Ishik ore
20 crates of Lanthanic ore
20 crates of Denic ore
40 crates of Pyronic ore
20 crates of Apicene ore
40 crates of Heliocene ore
1 Power Regulators
22 Solid Explosives
4 Plasteel
1 Amplification Modules
16 Plasma Cores
4 Xang Xi waste containers
20 Waste Treatment Chemicals
1 Basic Targeting systems
5 Bearing Grease
40 Coolant
1 Cooling Systems
20 Corrosive Chemicals
4 Energy Conversion Module
1 Gyroscope
12 Manufacturing Tools
4 Dentek Processor cores
4 Orun Processor cores
4 Artemis Processor cores
8 Guardian Proecessors
this would be a lot easier if we knew how much 1 "cu" is it seems kinda pointless that multiple XC trips are needed to make a 1 cu item
+1 for the ore and core bit. I agree with the sentiment about the trade goods but I don't have enough knowledge about them to speak for or against your alternative list.
To emphasize, though, the queen defensive matrix situation is bullshit right now.
To emphasize, though, the queen defensive matrix situation is bullshit right now.
A lot of ferric should be required for building ships, but not for weapons.
+1
I feel like wep manufacturing should focus on a few (like, 5 or so) rare-ish items, not a smorgasbord of cheap ores and commodity goods. Grind for grind's sake (which is exactly what mining boatloads of ferric ore is) is bad. But focusing on small amounts of rare-ish items means that the items are easy to transport (read: sell to other players), and not too much of a bitch to obtain (if something is too much of a bitch to get, then people won't use it for fear of losing it, which renders it pointless). Of course, this mini-rant only really applies to high-end weps. Hopefully in the future a few tons of ferric can land me a few dozen AAP's at-cost.
I still think manufacturing ships should be something of an epic pain, but weps shouldn't be that horrid as a general principal.
+1
I feel like wep manufacturing should focus on a few (like, 5 or so) rare-ish items, not a smorgasbord of cheap ores and commodity goods. Grind for grind's sake (which is exactly what mining boatloads of ferric ore is) is bad. But focusing on small amounts of rare-ish items means that the items are easy to transport (read: sell to other players), and not too much of a bitch to obtain (if something is too much of a bitch to get, then people won't use it for fear of losing it, which renders it pointless). Of course, this mini-rant only really applies to high-end weps. Hopefully in the future a few tons of ferric can land me a few dozen AAP's at-cost.
I still think manufacturing ships should be something of an epic pain, but weps shouldn't be that horrid as a general principal.
I think the bot parts requirement should be dropped completely. It doesn't make sense that our industrialized, space born society has to scavenge parts that can be manufactured by buglike semi-intelligent spaceship drifting aimlessly through space. We should certainly be able to manufacture these components ourselves. I would also suggest that the moth loads of materials required be designed to create a run of an item, rather than a single part. We can manufacture gov busses at such a rate that they're actually free to anyone, but it takes 6 moths of parts and ore to build a single weapon?
PS, the mine is awesome.
PS, the mine is awesome.
The Hive has badass tech, this is sort of part of the backstory.
heh. Maybe give options? A small amount of hive material or a boatload of raw material? Maybe the hive stuff is just easier to recycle...
The only reason I disagree with you, imp, is that the economy is very broken right now and bug parts are one of the few things that have a non-negligible cost. Once money means something, though, hive parts should be dropped in favor of expensive, small, precision-manufactured parts.
As an addenda to your thought
I would suggest that the butt loads of ore be replaced by a specially made commodity like 1 crate of heavy-liquid-pyrocene. The mission to make it should be at mining stations only and transporting it should be massivly dangerous as well....
I would suggest that the butt loads of ore be replaced by a specially made commodity like 1 crate of heavy-liquid-pyrocene. The mission to make it should be at mining stations only and transporting it should be massivly dangerous as well....
The mission to make it should be at mining stations only
So instead of one manufacturing mission, you have two? Interesting... but I don't think such multi-tiered manufacturing should apply to single-weapon creation. Maybe, maybe bulk weps... but for ships I approve.
and transporting it should be massivly dangerous as well
Like... it might explode? What on earth are you talking about?
So instead of one manufacturing mission, you have two? Interesting... but I don't think such multi-tiered manufacturing should apply to single-weapon creation. Maybe, maybe bulk weps... but for ships I approve.
and transporting it should be massivly dangerous as well
Like... it might explode? What on earth are you talking about?
I like the idea of manufacturing stuff to be used in manufacturing other stuff. That is something to do once the economic redux has happened, if we shift away from NPC-produced weapons to a primarily player-driven economy like in EVE. However, I don't think it's something we should do yet
it would allow some of the manufacturing be done by others....
And yes it might explode... yer carrying a a highly explosive material....any mistake and the ship should flare like a nova....
And yes it might explode... yer carrying a a highly explosive material....any mistake and the ship should flare like a nova....
And yes it might explode... yer carrying a a highly explosive material....any mistake and the ship should flare like a nova....
That's just a bit silly.
That's just a bit silly.
These "crafting" missions are lame. I want to fight great battles, not haul junk all over to get a slightly better weapon than I can just buy. The Teller-Ulam mine is a lemon. Who wants to carry a 15000 kg addon? Why spend an hour to collect the stuff to get just one mine?
From scratch it would take way way more than an hour to collect the stuff.
Considering the fact that the TU mine requires 4 queen defense matrices, and given the current drop rate on those, it would take months to collect the materials to build one from scratch.
To me, the matrix situation is the biggest problem... I understand the desire to limit them in-game but 4 is too much with the present drop rate.
...and mission creek is precisely why I suggested the intermediate manufactured component. He can simply purchase and haul the 1 cu quite easily from those who do enjoy crafting/gathering.
...and mission creek is precisely why I suggested the intermediate manufactured component. He can simply purchase and haul the 1 cu quite easily from those who do enjoy crafting/gathering.
Really ladron? I seem to have plenty of queen matrices in stock. Perhaps the idea is to encourage trade. Lets start at 100 million a go, If CHRN is as good at managing it's bank as Tumble/Impavid suggests , that should present no problem.....
Yes, Ecka. Us vets have many QDMs in stock. I want this game to be newb friendly and given that queens very rarely drop these now, it seems very reasonable to take issue with the requirement.
Also, you completely didn't understand what we said about our guild bank.
And anyway, if you think that 100 million credits is a fair price for a QDM then it's pretty clear that something is wrong with the current situation.
Also, you completely didn't understand what we said about our guild bank.
And anyway, if you think that 100 million credits is a fair price for a QDM then it's pretty clear that something is wrong with the current situation.
100mil? Surely you must be on some of those Itani Meditation Crystals. No general player who doesn't have time to farm cash or queens could afford that.
Nice job, and we're the griefers? Talk about economic griefing, man.
Nice job, and we're the griefers? Talk about economic griefing, man.