A (somewhat) brief summary of a discussion I had with AgY today on irc:

I am all for a pirate ship, even a pirate ship that is only available to unaligned (or for now, tri-kos). This pirate should should be able to intercept most ships out there. Having a pirate ship would make things more interesting, no doubt.

But this pirate ship would need not only balance within its own specs, but balance against other ships that would need to be introduced. As I see it, there are four roles for ships in vo: pvp (armor + weps), trading (high cargo), pirating (chasers), anti-pirating (chase-ship chasers). Griefing ships (it does happen) falls under pvp ships.

We wouldn't want this pirate ship, were it to fall into the hands of a griefer, to be completely uncatchable. As it is, the x1 is hard enough to catch when piloted by a griefer; having a new ship that is meant to sprint really damned fast that only a griefer or pilot or someone willing to tank faction standing can get access to is dangerous; to counter this scenario there must be some sort of interceptor available to non-pirates/griefers.

This pirate ship must also not be a multipurpose fighter, lest it become the dominant pvp ship rendering others useless. Ways to ensure this would be to make it less maneuverable (aka heavier) than some might like, and with less armor (though with high top speed of over 225m/s and very fast turbo thrust). To make this chase ship less absolutely dominant in pvp, it should most likely be limited to 2 weapons. Maybe, just maybe, it could take two batteries, though, so it would be capable of having enough firepower to take down its target despite its heft and relatively low armor.

If a pirate ship were to be introduced, another chase ship should be introduced as well (for reasons outlined above, to fit into the chase-ship chaser category). Maybe the rat chase ship doesn't have as high a top speed (diff of ≤ 5m/s), but has a slightly less drain (diff of ≤ 3m/s) to make the ships well balanced. This ship would probably be lighter (diff of ≤ 200kg) and slightly more armored (diff of approx 500), but with next to no cargo space and a slightly less powerful turbo engine (hence its ability to be lighter). This ship could look very similar to zak.wilson's Xi Xang interceptor. This ship could be limited to one small weapon port, which also would make it slightly lighter and more maneuverable than the pirate vessel. Also, a one weapon port ship would be less likely to dominate pvp, which is a plus.

I believe if these considerations are taken into account, we can introduce a pirate ship while keeping the universe balanced. Thoughts (and possible ship suggestions)?

P.S. This discussion stems from suggestions in these threads:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/20756
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/20752
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/20713

Good thoughts Atice, I like it.

I'm still not convinced that there is a problem here. Within VO, a pirate is someone who preys on traders. Traders fly cargo ships which are easily intercepted under normal circumstances, especially when they are carrying cargo. If a trader flys a medium-sized ship to increase their odds of survival at the cost of less cargo space than interception will be harder but that's the whole idea.

However, if you are talking about fighters not being able to catch other fighters than you are not talking about piracy but the simple fact that fighters trade range for acceleration and speed and thus have an effective combat radius which means you can't catch everything everywhere.

In any case, there are already two ships that make decent interceptors: the Warthog MkII and the Hornet MkII. Neither is particularly sexy but they have infiniboost at 220 m/s, can carry decent weapon loads, and are readily available. Nor is either a particularly good fighter (comparatively) which is just as it should be; interceptors are designed to catch heavier, slower ships, not to mix it up in dogfights.

Intercepting another ship in space is partially chance considering the number of variables involved. A smart pirate can reduce those variables by astute tactics but never reduce them to zero. Maybe the solution is a change in tactics and not the creation of ships to chase ships to chase ships.

EDIT: Sorry for the tone but I'm finding it increasingly tiring reading all the posts asking for super-duper pirate ships. Maybe the fact that pirates can already stop trade through a sector with the ships they currently have might account for the fact that there aren't any traders who bother unless they are bored.

No worry on the tone. In all honestly what I really, REALLY, want is an interceptor ship like the one zak.wilson described, and I think a pirate ship would make things just a bit more interesting. [Of course, if a pirate ship were to be introduced, the interceptor would need to have its specs balanced accordingly.]

Where a "pirate ship" differs from a hornet or wart is that it can actually close distance over a short period of time (but won't be able to keep up in a long chase). Granted, that sounds like the corvus maud, but the maud in its current form can not really chase anything down over a decently short distance, nor keep up over a long haul, and is therefore not what we are looking for.

Furthermore, a "pirate ship" would be available as a bonus to becoming unaligned (once the faction redux takes place). Of course, I don't mean for this thread to be a referendum on the FF redux or becoming unaligned, that was a side point. Also, this thread was meant in part to condense and focus the other pirate-ship related threads that are currently spiraling out of control.

Im fed up with this discussion. People that never ever pirated someone/something suggesting how a pirateship should be. Cool.

You dont know (a shit) about the problems a pirate has. And you keep suggesting ships that cant do the job.

3s ports rarly deal enough damage to kill a freaking voy-moth
5k armor is just enough to die (because the moth mentioned deals up to 7k dmg until hes toast)
infiniboost just makes runner not pirates because you still cant catch anything with that

Youve finally realized that there is a need but you deny all of these problems.

I let the devs sort things out and hope for something good.
But im no longer contributing to this death-trap suggestion threads.

Im fed up

Even now, I agree with AgY, this suggestion basis has become stupid.
Don't suggest pirate ships that can't pirate, interceptors that can't intercept.

I'm also fed up that people can't even suggest something remotely balanced.
I don't even look at threads that have a stupid heading like peytros did.
I looked at this one because it said balanced, and for a moment i thought people gathered a sense of balance.
But no.

I didn't give that much of a baseline for the two ships so that we could work out the balanced specs. I believe the two ships, if given the specs relative to each other like I mentioned, could both be introduced without unbalancing the game, while adding significant gameplay.

Give me something to work with that isn't 100% overpowering (AgY... a 2900kg ship with 3 small ports that can travel faster than any ship in the game is far from balanced). And for the record, I never said 5k armor. You guys have proposed ships that are basically the ideal pirating ship (granted, you gave it 65m/s non-turbo speed; that was a good nerf). That's unbalancing. Get your suggestions more into reality, as I tried to do here. I'm tired of unbalanced suggestions as well. That's why I made this thread, to try to come up with something we could agree is balanced. If you just want a super-duper pirate ship, fine, but that is never going to happen.

Given recent suggestions, here are two ship ideas I have come up with:

Corvus interceptor (requirements: unaligned, Corvus Admire):
Armor: 7000
Cargo: 0 cu
Weapons: 3s
Mass: 7600kg
Thrust: 375 N
Spin Torque: 6.8 Nm
Max Speed: 68m/s
Turbo Speed: 240 m/s
Turbo Energy: 59/s
Possible built-in radar extender for an extra 250kg.
Physical appearance: Marauder variant.

Xi Xang interceptor (requirements: Xi Xang Admire):
Armor: 7250
Cargo: 2 cu
Weapons: 1s
Mass: 3200kg
Length: 10m
Thrust: 225 N
Max Speed: 75 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.2 Nm
Turbo Speed: 235 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/s
Physical appearance: Centurion variant

The CI is loosely based off of AgY's suggestion in an earlier thread. It has been given much more mass, but plenty of thrust to compensate for it (it now has a slightly sub-prom engine – relatively speaking of course). It has also lost some armor and spin torque so that it does not dominate the PvP realm.

The XXI is loosely based off zak.wilson's suggestion in an earlier thread (though if my renditions do not go over well, I still strongly support zak.wilson's suggestion linked above). It has been given slightly more armor than the CI, as well as being much lighter and more maneuverable, it has a top speed similar to that of the CI but has less energy drain.

These numbers are far from set in stone, but I feel there might be some balance between these two ships (though the XXI is slightly underpowered in comparison, having a XX Positron Accelerator like has been posted earlier [linked below] would make up for the difference I think). Please feel free to submit your own suggestions, and also post constructive comments.

XX Positron Accelerator: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/20729#256840

NOTE: the very fast top speeds of these ships is meant to address AgY's concern that its damned hard to catch up to a non-mothed trader. I'd be okay with both these designs if the top speed for both was approx 225m/s with approx 55/s drain.

Atice I think a lot of this is coming from the pirates want someting like the valk. regardless of what people think I did think out my ship suggestion and have continued to refine it. when you look at your suggestion for the corvus maud varient it has 7000 armor and is a medium class ship why does your light intercept class ship have more armor then it? it just doesn't make sense for the workhorse ship of a pirate. This is my new suggestion for the raptor chasis

specs
armor 10000
weapons 3 small
mass 3100
thrust 230
spin torque 7
max speed 70
turbo speed 225
energy drain 55
cargo 4

it has a little bit more manueverable then a valk while sacraficing 1600 armor if you notice it has the same drain and turbo speed as a valk though so it is a good chaser but it is not going to be the end all be all of chase ships.

It seems we are working towards different ends peytros. I am trying to create an interceptor, while you are creating a pvp ship. Granted, those who are unaligned should have access to good pvp ships; since they have no access to nation ships, something needs to fill the void I have no problem having a (only slightly) nerfed unaligned-pvp ship available. Though I think there should be a separate unaligned pvp-focused ship and unaligned trader-chaser-focused ship.

And re the medium class ship with less armor than a light ship, I figured the CI had sacrificed armor in return for its damned fine engine. Though it might make sense to add another 500 armor or two in exchange for 100kg or 200kg added to the mass.

The reason the XXI had just a little more armor was to make it more viable in the field.

@Atice
1. Forget about top speed over 225.
We had that before and devs cut everything down so 225 is, and will be, top speed forever.
2. You fell into the same trap with centurion interceptor as the rest of the PKers.
That stats are for uber dogfighter not interceptor. It has more armor and spin torque then IBG, better thrust then Superlight and better top speed then a valk.

The top speed over 225 I'm happy to drop. Just trying to address other's concerns.
I upped the XXI in order to compensate for the exceptionally fast corvus interceptor. I think zak.wilson's idea was far more balanced, but I was trying to serve two masters (which didn't work as well as I planned). Granted, the 1 small port does limit its use by a lot.

Given the assumption that top speed is 225, here's a remake:

Corvus interceptor (requirements: unaligned, Corvus Admire):
Armor: 9500
Cargo: 14 cu
Weapons: 3s
Mass: 7600kg
Thrust: 375 N
Spin Torque: 7 Nm
Max Speed: 65m/s
Turbo Speed: 225 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/s
Possible built-in radar extender for an extra 250kg.
Physical appearance: Marauder variant (Mercenary mkII). NOTE: I'm not opposed to a possible raptor variant like the one peytros describes (though it probably should be a tad heavier).
Cost would probably be around 80k
Also, the armor is below 10000 since I'm trying to create a balance between its thrust/maneuverability and armor.

I'm also noticing that the Marauder Mercenary variant is a pretty good ship. If it were bumped up to 225m/s and given a bit more thrust, it would be far more useful.

Given the concerns bojansplash brought forth, I revert to zak.wilson's original design for the XXI.

I agree, the pirates certainly deserve a specialized ship.

Much the same (sorry for trying to pin this along with the thread), I believe UIT needs a specialized ship that is NOT ripped off of by nations who apparently make better versions of the Maud. The WTD is nice, but it doesn't nearly match the ships that Itani and Serco get to have, namely the Valk and the Prom.

Some such ship would be highly appreciated by all UIT players, undoubtedly. It is entirely unbalanced, and the UIT deserve to have a separate and equal ship to the specialized ships of the Itani and Serco.

Pirates and UIT both deserve something special... I fully support this thread.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of players look to the valk to pirate with because it can catch traders and pvp for when the good guys show up. I wouldn't be opposed to a two port pirate ship like the raptor i suggested but with two ports insted of 3 but I don't think many pirates would fly a one port interceptor due to the lack of variety of weapons you could use on it mostly you would be limited to energy. The reason the new ships are being measured against the valk is because it can chase cargo ships and combat ships and put up a fight when needed which are the qualities players are looking for in a good pirate ship

Corvus Greyhound (Interceptor-class Warthog)

Armor: 8250
Cargo: 6 cu
Weapons: 1s, 1L (standard Warthog in-line port configuration)
Mass: 5000 kg
Thrust: 350 N
Spin Torque: 5.5 Nm
Max Speed: 60 m/s
Turbo Speed: 225 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50 m/s

The Greyhound is designed to do one thing: swiftly close with a fleeing target, and deliver maximum firepower without giving up the chase. To do so, Corvus has sacrificed armor and cargo space, as well as permanently diverting power from Spin Torque to raw forward Thrust.

I like it.

If the valk had it's turbo reduced to 220, it's drain increased to 60, and it's mass increased to 4k, it would still be one of the best fighter ships in the game.

The valk is already overpowered and unbalancing. To make any ship that would out perform a valk is just stupid.

As has been pointed out, the hog2 and hornet2 are great long range chasers, they just can't dogfight very well.

The Corvus Maud is a great pirate ship. It is like an overweight valk but with cargo space. If that isn't enough cargo space, you can use the Atlas X to pirate with. I have flown both, and destroyed many, and I can not imagine how you can claim that there is not a good pirate ship. The hornet2 has 25 cargo, infini 220, and firepower to blow stuff up.

There is not a shortage of good pirate ships, just a shortage of good pirates.

Any ship you invent to fill a role, is quite likely to be used in the opposing role. People keep inventing supper fast ships to chase griefers, as if the griefers themselves are not at this very moment praying for exactly those ship.

We already have a large selection of very good ships, and I would like to see them receive very minor tweaks to promote balance. Drain 60 valk, slow down large cargo ships, increase the mass of proms.

Edit:
Moth D
Armor: 82,500
Cargo: 240 cu
Weapons: 1L
Mass: 55,000 kg
Thrust: 550 N
Spin Torque: 19.5 Nm
Max Speed: 50 m/s
Turbo Speed: 100 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60

Your Moth "D" needs another 110 cu of space to be balanced, Roda. Otherwise I like it.

VO has never recovered from the Devs choosing a speed cap rather than an across the board % decrease in ship speed . . . so anything large and slow helps balance things out again.

I'll give you the 110cu and even another 10k armor if you let me take off 20 more turbo speed.